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Old
02-16-2013, 04:49 PM
  #76
silkyjohnson50
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Originally Posted by JmanWingsFan View Post
But it does say when Cleary is on the ice, the Wings control the puck more than their opponents. So while they aren't scoring much when he's on, we aren't getting scored on more often. So basically, it's all a wash. He's bad, but he isn't hurting the team, just looking bad.
You are honestly unbearable. The pure pessimists are annoying as well, but you have proven that the other end of the spectrum is no better. So thank you for clearing that up.

When you're the 3rd forward on your line, your Corsi is more an indication of your center than you. And when you have spent games with Pavel freaking Datsyuk, one of the best puck possession players on the planet, your Corsi will reflect that.

Cleary is hurting the team. He has created numerous quality scoring chances... For the opposing team. He turns the puck over in areas you're not supposed to (at the offensive blueline), cannot win a puck battle to save his life, cannot beat an opponent when he has the puck, cannot pass, and cannot skate. He is getting quality minutes on lines he has no business being on and is sucking the life out of them. Cleary struggled as a 3rd liner last season. He's looked worse this year yet he's moved up lines this year.

Simply watch the games without rose colored glasses on. He's been brutal and saying that he hasn't hurt his line is flat out ridiculous.

And I loved Cleary when he was an effective player. He was a great pick up and worked his tail off to be a real good role player. But for the past two seasons now he is a shell of his former self, yet Babcock is partying like it's 2009.

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02-16-2013, 05:27 PM
  #77
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The pure pessimists are annoying as well, but you have proven that the other end of the spectrum is no better.
This.

But you wanna know what is more annoying? The two parties bickering to no end in almost every single ****ing thread.
People don't see eye to eye with Jman/HTT3/Mindfly and likely never will see eye to eye them so what's the point in arguing? Just put them on the ignore list and move on.

(Not directed at you Silky, just everyone who responds to Jman/HTT3 polluting every thread with mindless bickering about Cleary/Babcock)

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02-16-2013, 05:29 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by HTT3 View Post
Wings PP play and scoring will greatly improve when he [Sammy] returns.
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Originally Posted by WingedWheel1987 View Post
I will believe that when I see it.
Are you arguing against our mighty captain ?

Samuelsson returns to lineup Sunday






Quote:
“He plays in all situations, he’s going to be good for the PP, he’s a big body with a good shot,” Henrik Zetterberg said. “We’ve really been missing him here, basically from the start. We’re glad to have him back.


Last edited by Henkka: 02-16-2013 at 05:41 PM.
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02-16-2013, 06:23 PM
  #79
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[QUOTE=silkyjohnson50;59841815]
Quote:
You are honestly unbearable. The pure pessimists are annoying as well, but you have proven that the other end of the spectrum is no better. So thank you for clearing that up.
You need to chill out. Am I not allowed to argue points? Is this not the point of a forum? Can I not argue you're wrong?

Quote:
When you're the 3rd forward on your line, your Corsi is more an indication of your center than you. And when you have spent games with Pavel freaking Datsyuk, one of the best puck possession players on the planet, your Corsi will reflect that.
Was there any point for you to regurgitate what I said?

Quote:
Cleary is hurting the team. He has created numerous quality scoring chances... For the opposing team. He turns the puck over in areas you're not supposed to (at the offensive blueline),
Why don't you care to quantify this. Seeing is half the story, but eyes can be decieved.
Quote:
cannot win a puck battle to save his life, cannot beat an opponent when he has the puck, cannot pass, and cannot skate. He is getting quality minutes on lines he has no business being on and is sucking the life out of them. Cleary struggled as a 3rd liner last season. He's looked worse this year yet he's moved up lines this year.
This is a bunch of hyperbolic trash. If he couldn't do any of this, he wouldn't be earning any money playing hockey at all. Not even the Blue Jackets would ever sign this guy if he couldn't perform any of the fundamentals of hockey. If Cleary was this bad as everyone makes him out to be, he'd be dealt with. If the Tigers can get rid of Inge, Raburn, Valverde, ect... then the Red Wings can cut loose players that are not performing well enough to warrant ice time. Dave Dombrowski is regarded as well in his league as Ken Holland is in the NHL. For whatever reason, the brass believes Cleary should get ice time. They see something we don't see. I can't be certain what that is, so I refrain from judgement.
Quote:
Simply watch the games without rose colored glasses on. He's been brutal and saying that he hasn't hurt his line is flat out ridiculous.
Statistics area type of fact. The statistic of Corsi tells us the story of puck control of a player and his linemates. Cleary's happens to be 3rd behind Datsyuk and Filppula, his common linemates. Whether that is a product of his linemates or not is irrelevant. The stats, and thus the facts, say puck possession is better when Cleary is on the ice than when it isn't. It's the third highest on the team amongst those who've played at least 13 games. Thus the facts say that his individual play is not hurting the Wings play overall, because they're holding onto the puck better than the other lines... Of course that can all change.

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02-16-2013, 09:02 PM
  #80
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
Are you arguing against our mighty captain ?

Samuelsson returns to lineup Sunday


“He plays in all situations, he’s going to be good for the PP, he’s a big body with a good shot,” Henrik Zetterberg said. “We’ve really been missing him here, basically from the start. We’re glad to have him back.
What captain wouldn't say something like that when likely asked how expects a teammate returning from injury to help on the PP and ES?

I'm sure Z would say something along those lines if asked what he expects from someone getting called up from the minors, or acquired in a trade, too. Gotta accentuate the positives and best case scenarios.

He can't really come out and say "I'm sure Kenny is hoping he signed the 30-goal scoring Sammy circa 2009 with Vancouver, but we'll be lucky if he's the 11-to-14 goal scorer he's typically been... and I can't believe that Sammy talked Kenny into a NTC- LOL!!! Oh yeah, and there's a decent chance he smokes a teammate in the jaw with his vaunted slapshot."

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02-17-2013, 04:35 AM
  #81
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
What captain wouldn't say something like that when likely asked how expects a teammate returning from injury to help on the PP and ES?

I'm sure Z would say something along those lines if asked what he expects from someone getting called up from the minors, or acquired in a trade, too. Gotta accentuate the positives and best case scenarios.

He can't really come out and say "I'm sure Kenny is hoping he signed the 30-goal scoring Sammy circa 2009 with Vancouver, but we'll be lucky if he's the 11-to-14 goal scorer he's typically been... and I can't believe that Sammy talked Kenny into a NTC- LOL!!! Oh yeah, and there's a decent chance he smokes a teammate in the jaw with his vaunted slapshot."
He scored 14 goals (28 points) in 48 games on a very bad Florida team. His last full season he netted 50 points, and previously to that was 30 goals. You're calling him a 14 goal guy when he didn't even play a full season... he was on pace for 25 goals that year ON A BAD FLORIDA TEAM. Looks to me like he is more of a 20-30 goal guy from judging his recent stats. Not 11 to 14 like you claim.

At least try to be honest before clicking the "submit post" button..

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02-17-2013, 04:54 AM
  #82
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the panthers were so bad that they made the playoffs

samuelsson mostly played with goc and bergeinhem at even strength who are good 3rd liners. 11 of his points came on the powerplay where he played with guys like fleschmann, weiss, campbell, etc.

he would probably be a 20-20 guy for us over a full season

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Old
02-17-2013, 06:00 AM
  #83
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here's some more advanced stats to chew on

Cleary easily has the worst 5 on 5 On-Ice Sv% on the team at .886

second worst is Abdelkader at .898 then Kronwall at .900(and Nyquist at .900 but he's only played 2 games so i'll ignore him)

then there's nobody else till Bertuzzi all the way up at .917

meanwhile the Wings shooting percentage when Cleary is on the ice 5 on 5 is a dismal 3.7% which is behind only Abdelkader,Huskins,and Lashoff among players that have played more than 2 games

maybe the Wings have done well shot-wise while Cleary's been on the ice but the shots the other team have been getting have been going in the net quite a bit and vice versa for the shots the Wings have been getting


Last edited by ricky0034: 02-17-2013 at 06:56 AM.
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02-17-2013, 07:19 AM
  #84
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Originally Posted by ricky0034 View Post
here's some more advanced stats to chew on

Cleary easily has the worst 5 on 5 On-Ice Sv% on the team at .886

second worst is Abdelkader at .898 then Kronwall at .900(and Nyquist at .900 but he's only played 2 games so i'll ignore him)

then there's nobody else till Bertuzzi all the way up at .917

meanwhile the Wings shooting percentage when Cleary is on the ice 5 on 5 is a dismal 3.7% which is behind only Abdelkader,Huskins,and Lashoff among players that have played more than 2 games

maybe the Wings have done well shot-wise while Cleary's been on the ice but the shots the other team have been getting have been going in the net quite a bit and vice versa for the shots the Wings have been getting
Percentages are based off very small sample sizes and don't really predict anything going forward. Cleary might suck, but bad luck with the bounce of the puck that is largely outside his control shouldn't sway anyone. Both those percentages are unsustainably low going forward.

His shot differential while on the ice was also one of the best on the team when he was primarily skating with Abdelkader and a host of other wings on the 3rd line- while taking the most defensive zone faceoffs on the team at the time. Then he got promoted when injuries occurred in the top 6. It's possible when the coaching staff reviews the scoring chances for and against each game by player, they view Cleary as a positive player on multiple lines and roles who just has had a lot of bad luck percentage wise. I'm not sure, but it would make sense given Babcock's desire to play him so much even after they review and quantify the video of all the games.

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02-17-2013, 10:43 AM
  #85
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Originally Posted by braille View Post
the panthers were so bad that they made the playoffs

samuelsson mostly played with goc and bergeinhem at even strength who are good 3rd liners. 11 of his points came on the powerplay where he played with guys like fleschmann, weiss, campbell, etc.

he would probably be a 20-20 guy for us over a full season
Yeah they clawed their way past that almighty Islanders team in the East. The East is STACKED with 15 amazing teams, not sure how they did it. If Panthers were in the West, they'd be #1 and 30 points above everyone else.

As for the PP points, helps prove my and Zetterberg's initial point, he will make Detroit's PP much better. They need all the help they can get.

As for his probably point total on detroit, I think 20-20 is a fair assessment. He might get more assists and a few more goals though.

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02-17-2013, 11:06 AM
  #86
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Originally Posted by Brick Top View Post
What captain wouldn't say something like that when likely asked how expects a teammate returning from injury to help on the PP and ES?

I'm sure Z would say something along those lines if asked what he expects from someone getting called up from the minors, or acquired in a trade, too. Gotta accentuate the positives and best case scenarios.

He can't really come out and say "I'm sure Kenny is hoping he signed the 30-goal scoring Sammy circa 2009 with Vancouver, but we'll be lucky if he's the 11-to-14 goal scorer he's typically been... and I can't believe that Sammy talked Kenny into a NTC- LOL!!! Oh yeah, and there's a decent chance he smokes a teammate in the jaw with his vaunted slapshot."
Yet if it were to happen again, for once Nyquist might be promoted over Cleary.

Not that I'd wish injury on any Wings player. But were I hypothetically suggesting that Samuelsson use that IR-maker-shot of his for the purpose of sidelining a player or two, I might be inclined to direct him to Quincey and Cleary.

I'm not even sure of how more injuries would affect our roster. Our lineup looks quite a bit like the Little Giants of hockey at this point.


Last edited by TheFirebird: 02-17-2013 at 11:13 AM.
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02-17-2013, 11:11 AM
  #87
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I think in a top6 role, Sammy's probably a 20-30 guy or close. But on the third line were I want him, likely more like 15-25. It's about where he'd improve us most, and when we are healthy it's on the 3rd line.

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02-17-2013, 11:47 AM
  #88
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Percentages are based off very small sample sizes and don't really predict anything going forward. Cleary might suck, but bad luck with the bounce of the puck that is largely outside his control shouldn't sway anyone. Both those percentages are unsustainably low going forward.

His shot differential while on the ice was also one of the best on the team when he was primarily skating with Abdelkader and a host of other wings on the 3rd line- while taking the most defensive zone faceoffs on the team at the time. Then he got promoted when injuries occurred in the top 6. It's possible when the coaching staff reviews the scoring chances for and against each game by player, they view Cleary as a positive player on multiple lines and roles who just has had a lot of bad luck percentage wise. I'm not sure, but it would make sense given Babcock's desire to play him so much even after they review and quantify the video of all the games.
One thing you cannot argue is Cleary has been brutal at taking penalties, a clear sign his game has fallen off dramatically. He's averaging just about 4 penalties per 60 mins which is atrocious. It's 4-8x worse than any year prior to this season. He does draw a decent amount of penalties, possibly due to falling down so much. Even with that being the case he takes 2.4 more penalties taken per 60 mins than he draws.

With our awful PK we cannot have guys like Cleary take lots of penalties and hurt the team.

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02-17-2013, 12:07 PM
  #89
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He scored 14 goals (28 points) in 48 games on a very bad Florida team. His last full season he netted 50 points, and previously to that was 30 goals. You're calling him a 14 goal guy when he didn't even play a full season... he was on pace for 25 goals that year ON A BAD FLORIDA TEAM. Looks to me like he is more of a 20-30 goal guy from judging his recent stats. Not 11 to 14 like you claim.

At least try to be honest before clicking the "submit post" button..
As already pointed out, Florida made the playoffs last year as the #3 seed in the East, so who's being dishonest now? That Panthers team's finish will be much better than the Wings will pull off this season.

Sammy's topped 20 goals all of 2 times in his career, so he's a guy who's likely going to be in the teens with goals for a full season. It's not like he's a young guy with untapped potential who will take his game to another level.

And sure, it's fun to play "but he was on pace for" game with goals, but guess what- he's an older player, and older guys are more prone to injury and take longer to recover when injured. He had a good run of staying relatively healthy, but last year didn't go his way. He didn't get any younger when signing with Detroit, and wouldn't you know it- he got injured early this year and is just now getting back. Weird, eh?

And thus concludes my honest post.


Last edited by Brick Top: 02-17-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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02-28-2013, 09:16 AM
  #90
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http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...-secret-stats/

Old, but interesting article about "secret stats".

Corsi tries to do the same, but still, it doesn't count out guys who were not involved in the play.

It would be really nice to get these REAL scoring chances in public.

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02-28-2013, 10:13 AM
  #91
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Over the past four games we're allowing 1.25 GAA at even strength. That's a good sign as those games were against quality competition: LAK, NAS, VAN and...um...the Blue Jackets. Hey 3 out of 4 are quality opponents.

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03-01-2013, 11:06 AM
  #92
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Over the past 5 games we are now down to 1.20 GAA at even strength. We're also getting strong outings from Jimmy and Gustavsson. If we can continue to play solid defense we should be competitive and have a great shot at locking down a playoff spot.

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03-01-2013, 12:24 PM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Henkka View Post
http://sports.nationalpost.com/2011/...-secret-stats/

Old, but interesting article about "secret stats".

Corsi tries to do the same, but still, it doesn't count out guys who were not involved in the play.

It would be really nice to get these REAL scoring chances in public.
Wait, so you mean to tell all of us that the GMs and Coaches have access to information that we armchair GMs and Coaches don't? And possibly, that info could lead to some of the decisions made that we call into question? So basically, we're quite ignorant when we call into question the coaching staff and brass because we don't have all the information? WOW.

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03-01-2013, 01:10 PM
  #94
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Wait, so you mean to tell all of us that the GMs and Coaches have access to information that we armchair GMs and Coaches don't? And possibly, that info could lead to some of the decisions made that we call into question? So basically, we're quite ignorant when we call into question the coaching staff and brass because we don't have all the information? WOW.
Serious question: why are you on a message board where the only reason the board exists is for hard core fans discuss all aspects of the Detroit Red Wings organization? If you seriously believe everyone has no basis for an opinion then why come to a site where 99% of content is fan opinion on the team? That sounds like a humongous waste of time. Why not just read Helene St James' articles to tell you everything you need to know and save yourself a whole bunch of time?

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03-01-2013, 01:39 PM
  #95
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I think in a top6 role, Sammy's probably a 20-30 guy or close. But on the third line were I want him, likely more like 15-25. It's about where he'd improve us most, and when we are healthy it's on the 3rd line.
Sammy's garbage.
Another Holland mistake.

At 36 with his injuries, his skating is going to be hampered, making him pretty useless.

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03-01-2013, 01:55 PM
  #96
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Sammy's garbage.
Another Holland mistake.

At 36 with his injuries, his skating is going to be hampered, making him pretty useless.
He's still a 40-50 point player, but there's better options available.

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03-01-2013, 01:56 PM
  #97
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Serious question: why are you on a message board where the only reason the board exists is for hard core fans discuss all aspects of the Detroit Red Wings organization? If you seriously believe everyone has no basis for an opinion then why come to a site where 99% of content is fan opinion on the team? That sounds like a humongous waste of time. Why not just read Helene St James' articles to tell you everything you need to know and save yourself a whole bunch of time?
It is my opinion that forming opinions on matters that we have little information on and then using such matters we have little information on to justify bashing the brass is also quite ignorant and foolish to do so.

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03-01-2013, 05:58 PM
  #98
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It is my opinion that forming opinions on matters that we have little information on and then using such matters we have little information on to justify bashing the brass is also quite ignorant and foolish to do so.
So if you cannot form an opinion on your own and then try to explain your opinion why should you participate? What's the point? Why not just read Holland and Babcock's quotes, nod solemnly to yourself, and wait for the next hockey game.

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03-01-2013, 06:38 PM
  #99
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So if you cannot form an opinion on your own and then try to explain your opinion why should you participate? What's the point? Why not just read Holland and Babcock's quotes, nod solemnly to yourself, and wait for the next hockey game.
Point
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Your head

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03-01-2013, 06:55 PM
  #100
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Point
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Your head
Would love to see you answer his question.

Don't think you can.

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