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Old
02-20-2013, 12:26 PM
  #701
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As to trading Boyle, yeah I don't see it happening either, but if DW can pull off another Stuart/Sturm/Primeau for Thornton type steal that involves Boyle, I'd be okay with it.

Would need to have juicy return from a team in the East that is not on his now limited NTC (I believe after June of last year, his NTC is only limited to 8 teams he has selected).

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02-20-2013, 12:29 PM
  #702
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As to trading Boyle, yeah I don't see it happening either, but if DW can pull off another Stuart/Sturm/Primeau for Thornton type steal that involves Boyle, I'd be okay with it.

Would need to have juicy return from a team in the East that is not on his now limited NTC (I believe after June of last year, his NTC is only limited to 8 teams he has selected).
Obviously we're trading Boyle for Michalek as a Karlsson replacement, and Stuart/Clowe/Wingels for Giroux.

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02-20-2013, 01:59 PM
  #703
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Please stop the "trade Boyle" madness. If the Sharks trade Boyle, they are essentially blowing up the current team and starting from scratch. Could that happen next summer? Who knows. But as of right now, it's ludicrous. Boyle is the most important player on the team. It is Boyle's presence that is most responsible for the Sharks turning into one of the premiere puck possession teams in the NHL. The Sharks can't even break out of their zone without Boyle. He is one of the three or four best puck-moving defensemen in the league. Brent Burns simply does not have the possession capability that Boyle does. Don't even get me started on Demers. So, if the Sharks trade Boyle, they are basically admitting that they are going to start over. Like I said, when the summer comes around, we can talk about this again. But unless you are going to pull an elite young puck-moving defenseman out of your ass to replace him, trading Boyle is simply not even a remote consideration. Forget what Darren Dreger said. He is one of the best and is very reliable, but he was using Boyle as an example, not as a realistic possibility.

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02-20-2013, 02:07 PM
  #704
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Guess what guys??? Matt Pelech was on the ice for HALF of the Blues scoring chances at even strength despite playing only 6 minutes of ice time!

It's not like it was just his fault, as Burish and Desy blew chunks too, but there is no possible excuse for a 4th line playing that ****tily. I remember the good times when I thought you could ice scrubs on the 4th line and it wouldn't change things. Alas, ignorance is bliss.

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02-20-2013, 02:09 PM
  #705
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Sounds like Dreger's talking out of his ass. Why would Wilson deal Boyle, let alone Thornton, in the middle of the season when we're already playoff contenders? If we miss the playoffs or get ousted in the first round again, then sure, trade one of them in the off-season. But there's no way Wilson moves a significant piece mid-season.

And honestly, I'm not convinced we need another forward. Gomez and Galiardi are perfectly capable third-liners who haven't been given a fair shot here. They both seem to be in McLellan's doghouse for some reason, while scrubs like Pelech get ice time over them. If Wilson decides to shake things up, I hope it's in the form of a coaching change.

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02-20-2013, 02:17 PM
  #706
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Originally Posted by glasgow26 View Post
Sounds like Dreger's talking out of his ass. Why would Wilson deal Boyle, let alone Thornton, in the middle of the season when we're already playoff contenders? If we miss the playoffs or get ousted in the first round again, then sure, trade one of them in the off-season. But there's no way Wilson moves a significant piece mid-season.

And honestly, I'm not convinced we need another forward. Gomez and Galiardi are perfectly capable third-liners who haven't been given a fair shot here. They both seem to be in McLellan's doghouse for some reason, while scrubs like Pelech get ice time over them. If Wilson decides to shake things up, I hope it's in the form of a coaching change.
As a random theory, maybe DW has been told to get costs under better control but that the org expects the team to continue to be a regular playoff contender in the future. Given that they are already looking at $6 mil drop in the cap next year, it could be the DW has decided that the time to sell is now (while the cap is still up and to allow teams to make other moves they may want before next year).

Moving Boyle and JT for good young players, picks, and prospects to re-energize the organization forward depth (a continuing area of weakness for years now) will not only make getting under the cap next year much easier, but it might even put the org in the position of being able to pick up a few "just a bit too high" contracts in the next year or two to add more depth at forward while still building for the future.

Given the shortened season, I could see ownership saying "we'll forgive you if you don't make the playoffs this year, as long as the team is well situated for new realities under next years cap".

I'm not saying any of that is likely, but I can also see it being plausible. Ownership has spent much more than they had historically in the past under DW and still not won a Cup. Maybe they think it's time to pull back a bit?

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02-20-2013, 02:21 PM
  #707
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
As a random theory, maybe DW has been told to get costs under better control but that the org expects the team to continue to be a regular playoff contender in the future. Given that they are already looking at $6 mil drop in the cap next year, it could be the DW has decided that the time to sell is now (while the cap is still up and to allow teams to make other moves they may want before next year).

Moving Boyle and JT for good young players, picks, and prospects to re-energize the organization forward depth (a continuing area of weakness for years now) will not only make getting under the cap next year much easier, but it might even put the org in the position of being able to pick up a few "just a bit too high" contracts in the next year or two to add more depth at forward while still building for the future.

Given the shortened season, I could see ownership saying "we'll forgive you if you don't make the playoffs this year, as long as the team is well situated for new realities under next years cap".

I'm not saying any of that is likely, but I can also see it being plausible. Ownership has spent much more than they had historically in the past under DW and still not won a Cup. Maybe they think it's time to pull back a bit?
Really?

The execution can definitely be criticized, but the talent is there. The usual problem that happens is some young player can't hack it, and DW has to trade for the solution.

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02-20-2013, 02:25 PM
  #708
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Really?

The execution can definitely be criticized, but the talent is there. The usual problem that happens is some young player can't hack it, and DW has to trade for the solution.
How many top-6 potential forward prospects do the Sharks have right now? 1 in Hertl. How many did they have before the Burns trade? 1 in Coyle. And before that? Maybe 2 (Coyle and Sgarbossa)?

And if the player "can't hack it", that's still a lack of depth and still organizational weakness.

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02-20-2013, 02:39 PM
  #709
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
How many top-6 potential forward prospects do the Sharks have right now? 1 in Hertl. How many did they have before the Burns trade? 1 in Coyle. And before that? Maybe 2 (Coyle and Sgarbossa)?

And if the player "can't hack it", that's still a lack of depth and still organizational weakness.
These things should be contextualized.

Our forward depth is good, mostly because our top-six is in for the long haul. Pavelski, Couture, Marleau, and Thornton should be lifers. Havlat has got years left on his contract.

Clowe is probably the odd-man out, and it isn't crazy to think that one of Wingels, Galliardi, or Sheppard could replace him.

In regards to prospects, San Jose also has Nieto, and possibly Kuraly.

Personally, I think that young players struggle to hack our lineup, because unless you are a bonafide bluechip talent (that you rarely get in areas where the Sharks draft), you just won't be able to crack the depth the Sharks have. IE, Marcel Goc syndrome.

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02-20-2013, 02:44 PM
  #710
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
How many top-6 potential forward prospects do the Sharks have right now? 1 in Hertl. How many did they have before the Burns trade? 1 in Coyle. And before that? Maybe 2 (Coyle and Sgarbossa)?

And if the player "can't hack it", that's still a lack of depth and still organizational weakness.
I consider Nieto to be a top-6 potential...Kuraly, Tennyson, Stalberg, and Hamilton have a pretty decent chance to be middle-6 players.

I really believe that DW is preparing the team for when Thornton and Marleau are gone. The prospect pool has a ton of two way puck moving defensemen and a lot of two way forwards. Even though we don't have any blue-chip offensive prospects.

It makes me think of the way that Nashville or Phoenix is built.

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02-20-2013, 02:45 PM
  #711
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I consider Nieto to be a top-6 potential...Kuraly, Tennyson, Stalberg, and Hamilton have a pretty decent chance to be middle-6 players.
Stalberg is unlikely to be an NHLer, Tennyson is a defenseman, Kuraly and Hamilton are hopefully third liners. Nieto is the only other guy besides Hertl with top-6 potential, and Nieto is risky.

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02-20-2013, 02:46 PM
  #712
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Originally Posted by Vaasa View Post
How many top-6 potential forward prospects do the Sharks have right now? 1 in Hertl. How many did they have before the Burns trade? 1 in Coyle. And before that? Maybe 2 (Coyle and Sgarbossa)?

And if the player "can't hack it", that's still a lack of depth and still organizational weakness.
Oh yeah I forgot prospects >>>>>>>>> NHL top-6 players.

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02-20-2013, 03:00 PM
  #713
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
These things should be contextualized.

Our forward depth is good, mostly because our top-six is in for the long haul. Pavelski, Couture, Marleau, and Thornton should be lifers. Havlat has got years left on his contract.

Clowe is probably the odd-man out, and it isn't crazy to think that one of Wingels, Galliardi, or Sheppard could replace him.

In regards to prospects, San Jose also has Nieto, and possibly Kuraly.

Personally, I think that young players struggle to hack our lineup, because unless you are a bonafide bluechip talent (that you rarely get in areas where the Sharks draft), you just won't be able to crack the depth the Sharks have. IE, Marcel Goc syndrome.
And what does the org do if JT decides he doesn't want to re-sign (unlikely, but you have to factor it)? What if any of the current top-6 go down permanently due to injury (we've seen enough concussions lately to make this a reality).

Personally, I think DW is going to burn the organization down depth-wise before he is canned, and that ownership is more-or-less fine with this. They probably assume that the fans will come back no matter what. So no, I don't expect DW to move Boyle, or JT, or Marleau, or honestly, even Clowe. I fully expect Clowe to be re-signed at $4-5 mil a year. I just don't think any of that is good idea. But then, I don't think continuing to employ DW and Sommers is a good idea, so who care's what I think?

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02-20-2013, 03:04 PM
  #714
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I fully expect Clowe to be re-signed at $4-5 mil a year.
There is literally no reason to believe this. This probably speaks to your biases more than anything.

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02-20-2013, 03:06 PM
  #715
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And what does the org do if JT decides he doesn't want to re-sign (unlikely, but you have to factor it)? What if any of the current top-6 go down permanently due to injury (we've seen enough concussions lately to make this a reality).

Personally, I think DW is going to burn the organization down depth-wise before he is canned, and that ownership is more-or-less fine with this. They probably assume that the fans will come back no matter what. So no, I don't expect DW to move Boyle, or JT, or Marleau, or honestly, even Clowe. I fully expect Clowe to be re-signed at $4-5 mil a year. I just don't think any of that is good idea. But then, I don't think continuing to employ DW and Sommers is a good idea, so who care's what I think?
Not possible cap-wise. Otherwise I'd agree.

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02-20-2013, 03:36 PM
  #716
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Originally Posted by hohosaregood View Post
I consider Nieto to be a top-6 potential...Kuraly, Tennyson, Stalberg, and Hamilton have a pretty decent chance to be middle-6 players.

I really believe that DW is preparing the team for when Thornton and Marleau are gone. The prospect pool has a ton of two way puck moving defensemen and a lot of two way forwards. Even though we don't have any blue-chip offensive prospects.

It makes me think of the way that Nashville or Phoenix is built.

I do as well, and even right now I think we're in much better shape than people think. Assuming they're not traded, Couture, Pavs, and Hertl up the middle, Vlasic, Burns, Demers, Braun, and Irwin on the back end (along with other D prospects in waiting), and one or both of Stalock/Sateri in goal at some point. Not an elite group, but the building blocks are there to remain a good team while the prospect pool is restocked.

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02-20-2013, 03:44 PM
  #717
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Not possible cap-wise. Otherwise I'd agree.
Get Clowe for $4 mil and that bumps them up to over a mil for 1 extra depth forward. That's more than enough plus some room for injury call-ups. Get Demers for a bit less and Galiardi for a bit less and that's even more room.

Both Doug Wilson and Todd McLellen seem so infatuated with Clowe that they want to have his babies. I honestly think DW is going to re-sign Clowe for at least 3 years in the $4-5 million range. It's possible for next year even with the drop in the cap. Even if they have to give Couture $3 mil on a short-term deal promising a bigger raise after JT's and Marleau's next (reduced) contracts, I believe it will happen.

CAPGEEK.COM USER GENERATED ROSTER
My Custom Lineup
FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
Ryane Clowe ($4.500m) / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Matt Pelech ($0.550m) / James Sheppard ($0.900m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
T.J. Galiardi ($0.850m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.600m) / Adam Burish ($1.850m)
DEFENSEMEN
Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m) / Brad Stuart ($3.600m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Matt Irwin ($0.550m) /
GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.550m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $63,726,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $573,333
------
CALCULATOR LOG
* Jason Demers signed as free agent for $1,500,000.
* Ryane Clowe signed as free agent for $4,500,000.
* Alex Stalock signed as free agent for $550,000.
* Matt Irwin signed as free agent for $550,000.
* James Sheppard signed as free agent for $900,000.
* Matt Pelech signed as free agent for $550,000.
* T.J. Galiardi signed as free agent for $850,000.
* Andrew Desjardins signed as free agent for $600,000.

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02-20-2013, 03:47 PM
  #718
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Get Clowe for $4 mil and that bumps them up to over a mil for 1 extra depth forward. That's more than enough plus some room for injury call-ups. Get Demers for a bit less and Galiardi for a bit less and that's even more room.

Both Doug Wilson and Todd McLellen seem so infatuated with Clowe that they want to have his babies. I honestly think DW is going to re-sign Clowe for at least 3 years in the $4-5 million range. It's possible for next year even with the drop in the cap. Even if they have to give Couture $3 mil on a short-term deal promising a bigger raise after JT's and Marleau's next (reduced) contracts, I believe it will happen.
There is no way Pelech is on that 3rd line.

Also, Hertl will be over unless he specifically wants to stay in the Czech Republic or DW won't commit to giving him a spot, I'd think.

I know that Clowe is DW's favorite, but I just can't see him getting re-signed.

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02-20-2013, 03:52 PM
  #719
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You're being way too cheap on those salaries. Is the league minimum even 550k?

This is how I saw it. It is possible to fit Clowe in, but you have to buy out Burish, and I'm still being pretty cheap. I can see Demers making anywhere from 1.5 to 2, and Sheppard and Galiardi getting around 1 - 1.3.
I don't see Galiardi and Desjardins getting pay-cuts.

FORWARDS
Patrick Marleau ($6.900m) / Joe Thornton ($7.000m) / Martin Havlat ($5.000m)
Roster Spot / Logan Couture ($2.875m) / Joe Pavelski ($4.000m)
T.J. Galiardi ($1.000m) / James Sheppard ($1.000m) / Tommy Wingels ($0.775m)
X ($0.750m) / Andrew Desjardins ($0.900m) / X ($0.750m)
Matt Pelech ($0.600m)

DEFENSEMEN

Dan Boyle ($6.667m) / Brent Burns ($5.760m)
Marc-Edouard Vlasic ($4.250m) / Brad Stuart ($3.600m)
Justin Braun ($1.250m) / Jason Demers ($1.500m)
Matt Irwin ($0.750m) /

GOALTENDERS
Antti Niemi ($3.800m)
Alex Stalock ($0.700m)
OTHER

Buyout: Adam Burish ($0.000m)
------
CAPGEEK.COM TOTALS (follow @capgeek on Twitter)
(these totals are compiled with the bonus cushion)
SALARY CAP: $64,300,000; CAP PAYROLL: $59,826,667; BONUSES: $0
CAP SPACE (21-man roster): $4,473,333

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02-20-2013, 04:02 PM
  #720
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I don't think you can buy out Burish.

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02-20-2013, 04:09 PM
  #721
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I don't think you can buy out Burish.
All hypothetical talk. There hasn't been anything saying you can't though (and capgeek lets you do a compliance buy-out).

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02-20-2013, 04:12 PM
  #722
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There is no way Pelech is on that 3rd line.

Also, Hertl will be over unless he specifically wants to stay in the Czech Republic or DW won't commit to giving him a spot, I'd think.

I know that Clowe is DW's favorite, but I just can't see him getting re-signed.
Sorry, I didn't try to match people to specific lines. I just let CapGeek auto-assign them as I filled in the roster. And whether it's Pelech or whoever, the point was merely that they can fill a forward spot with a nearly minimum guy.

On Hertl, I think he's going to play out next year in the Czech Republic. He's already signed, he's getting lots of playing time, and I don't think he's going to go straight to the NHL next year. So why come play in the AHL?

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02-20-2013, 04:15 PM
  #723
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Sorry, I didn't try to match people to specific lines. I just let CapGeek auto-assign them as I filled in the roster. And whether it's Pelech or whoever, the point was merely that they can fill a forward spot with a nearly minimum guy.

On Hertl, I think he's going to play out next year in the Czech Republic. He's already signed, he's getting lots of playing time, and I don't think he's going to go straight to the NHL next year. So why come play in the AHL?
I dunno, he seems NHL ready to me. Obviously, if he comes into camp and doesn't impress, he'll go back to Slavia Praha, he's said he doesn't want to play in the AHL. But I wouldn't rule him out either.

But that bottom-6 is horrendous, and with how Clowe is playing, he's not a top-6 foward. That is not good for this team. I can't imagine him being re-signed at that much.

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02-20-2013, 04:16 PM
  #724
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You're being way too cheap on those salaries. Is the league minimum even 550k?
League minimum is $525k this year and increases to $750k in the 10th year of the agreement. I figured that works out to roughly $25k a year, so $550k for next year seemed reasonable. I couldn't find if there was a specific table of the increases for each year, but $550k seems likely. I think you can pretty much guarantee it's less than $600k.

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02-20-2013, 04:19 PM
  #725
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But that bottom-6 is horrendous, and with how Clowe is playing, he's not a top-6 foward. That is not good for this team. I can't imagine him being re-signed at that much.
If you swap Galiardi and Pelech in his line-up, only the 4th line sucks. The 3rd line is still a question mark, but it isn't bad as long as Galiardi gets time to build some chemistry and isn't immediately in the doghouse. You get another year of development for Wingels and Sheppard (hopefully both becoming very good third liners).

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