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Old
02-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #751
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
One thing is certain: DW is more likely to trade a star player (or even an untouchable) than fire TMac, especially during the season. You think DW loves Boyle? He loves TMac 1000 times more. Ugh.
Eh, that's a little too extreme even for DW. Star players like Boyle, Thornton, and Marleau can make a coach look good. A coach can't make a player look like a star. Coaches are the easiest scapegoats when the team is struggling.

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02-20-2013, 08:52 PM
  #752
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
You mean SJ right? There probably would be a difference in attendance rates if the Sharks were in SF. There are a lot more fans in the South Bay (a reason why they moved), and it isn't reasonable for them to make the long commute for every home game.
First off point of order: They were only in SF while SJ Arena was being built. My point there was if it was the San Francisco Sharks, I believe the interest in the ENTIRE Bay Area, especially TV ratings wise, would have been a bit higher (or maybe much higher) than playing in San Jose, especially that stretch when the Sharks were a 2 seed, 1 seed, 1 seed, 2 seed.

And it's not about commuting to games or anything like that, it's about the age old stigma for people NOT in the South Bay who thumb their nose at the South Bay, especially when it comes to sports. If they were and always had been the San Francisco Sharks, I think the average casual sports fan in San Mateo or Oakland or Richmond would have more interest in the Sharks than them playing in San Jose.

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02-20-2013, 08:53 PM
  #753
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Originally Posted by WTFetus View Post
Eh, that's a little too extreme even for DW. Star players like Boyle, Thornton, and Marleau can make a coach look good. A coach can't make a player look like a star. Coaches are the easiest scapegoats when the team is struggling.
I'm just making the point that it feels like the Sharks could never win a game in the rest of this season and TMac STILL wouldn't lose his job. And I'm mad about it.

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02-20-2013, 08:55 PM
  #754
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Generally, I think his strategy of gearing up for cup runs by trading assets that are unlikely to help us in the long-run is acceptable. Moreover, there is some evidence to suggest that as the core gets older, DW is modifying his strategy. The last major prospect/pick he traded or attempted to move was for Brent Burns and Niklas Hjalmarsson, both young and long-term assets.
Any rental trades DW has made in recent time have largely been depth deals that haven't required high draft picks. I think the days of spending firsts on rentals are over.

The question to whether Marleau & Thornton stay is if they want to stick around at reasonable dollar amounts. Both will likely be fairly productive for many more years. Probably not at Selanne levels, but they'll be 40-50 point players for the rest of their careers. Boyle, due to the defensive depth in the org, will be expendable.

If Clowe wants to stay, he will have to take a pay cut. Otherwise, he'd be a good piece to offload to a desperate team for a first that's in danger of missing the playoffs, like the Caps. Could turn into a high pick through the lottery.

If anything, I think the Sharks are in the middle of a three year transition phase right now. We're in the "rebuild" right now.

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02-20-2013, 08:59 PM
  #755
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If anything, I think the Sharks are in the middle of a three year transition phase right now. We're in the "rebuild" right now.
This. Just because the team doesn't resembles the Sharks in 95-96 and 96-97 (you know, the Wiley/Sims "era") doesn't mean we aren't going through our version of a rebuild right now. Problem is, IMHO, DW doesn't have enough of the core yet for the built. Good on defensemen and goalies, but not on forwards, especially, I dunno, true wingers??

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02-20-2013, 09:00 PM
  #756
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
First off point of order: They were only in SF while SJ Arena was being built. My point there was if it was the San Francisco Sharks, I believe the interest in the ENTIRE Bay Area, especially TV ratings wise, would have been a bit higher (or maybe much higher) than playing in San Jose, especially that stretch when the Sharks were a 2 seed, 1 seed, 1 seed, 2 seed.

And it's not about commuting to games or anything like that, it's about the age old stigma for people NOT in the South Bay who thumb their nose at the South Bay, especially when it comes to sports. If they were and always had been the San Francisco Sharks, I think the average casual sports fan in San Mateo or Oakland or Richmond would have more interest in the Sharks than them playing in San Jose.
I think we're talking about different points (TV ratings vs actual attendance). I agree that TV ratings would probably go up since San Francisco is a lot bigger of a name than San Jose. I think attendance rates would suffer because of the distance though. It's the same reason why the Islanders might be better off financially after they move to Brooklyn.

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02-20-2013, 09:05 PM
  #757
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Originally Posted by glasgow26 View Post
The difference there is that Carter and Richards were traded in their primes, when their value was at their highest. And those guys still are in their primes and could still fetch a lot in a trade. They're both young and signed long-term. Boyle, Thornton and Marleau are entering the twilights of their careers. They each have another 3-5 years left at least, but they aren't in their primes and thus don't have the same kind of value. I'm not convinced that we'd get much in return for any of them, especially when you consider that all three of them are UFAs after next season.
1) Long-term contracts are not always a positive

2) Thornton and Marleau are simply superior players to Carter and Richards.

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02-20-2013, 09:11 PM
  #758
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If the Sharks continue to play .500 hockey for the next few weeks I think that DW should move Clowe, Murray, Havlet, Zeus, Nemo and one of Boyle or Marleau. He should stock up on promising forward prospects/ young players in need of a change of scenery and high draft picks. Then (re) build the team around Juicy, Pavs, Pickles and Burns while Thornton stays on as the savvy vet to finish out his career.

If we want this process to be quick and painless we need to get the young goalies and d-men some experience and ice time.

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02-20-2013, 09:14 PM
  #759
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
1) Long-term contracts are not always a positive

2) Thornton and Marleau are simply superior players to Carter and Richards.
Precisely.

Besides, what the return turned into is much different than what it was traded into.

Richards was traded for a top prospect and a 2nd/3rd line tweener. Simmonds hit 40 points once as a King. Who knew that Simmonds would score 30 goals?

Carter was traded for a young 2nd line winger and a decent but not great first. Who knew that the pick would turn into Couturier? What if the pick had been, I don't know, Ryan Murphy?

As far as value goes I'd want at least as much for one of Thornton as Marleau.

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02-20-2013, 09:20 PM
  #760
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Man that Carter trade...
Voracek and a pick that turned into Couturier?

Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
1) Long-term contracts are not always a positive

2) Thornton and Marleau are simply superior players to Carter and Richards.
Richards and Carter's cap-hits aren't too bad for the foreseeable future though. In this case, their long-term contracts would probably be seen in better light than soon to be UFAs.
Also both Thornton and Marleau have NMCs which hurt their value.

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02-20-2013, 09:37 PM
  #761
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Originally Posted by ChompChomp View Post
This. Just because the team doesn't resembles the Sharks in 95-96 and 96-97 (you know, the Wiley/Sims "era") doesn't mean we aren't going through our version of a rebuild right now. Problem is, IMHO, DW doesn't have enough of the core yet for the built. Good on defensemen and goalies, but not on forwards, especially, I dunno, true wingers??
D & goal is good to go post-Boyle, as you said: Burns, Vlasic, Demers, Braun, and Stuart. All they need is two solid performers out of anyone else. Irwin seems to be the best for #6 at the moment.

Most of the forward positions are okay. Pavelski, Thornton, & Marleau on cheaper contracts. Hertl as 3C. Sheppard, Wingels, Galiardi, Desjardins, Kennedy, Hamilton, Stalberg, Nieto, or whoever else as bottom six. Of course, these guys need to improve in order to stick but, the potential is there.

Havlat and Burish are the only two where I don't see a clear role.

The two holes that I see are big ones: two wings to play with Couture. High quality upcoming or already established young talent. These are the holes that could be fixed by moving Clowe and Boyle.

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02-20-2013, 10:39 PM
  #762
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Quote:
Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
1) Long-term contracts are not always a positive

2) Thornton and Marleau are simply superior players to Carter and Richards.
1) That's true, but both Richards and Carter have perfectly reasonable contracts. They're young enough and the cap hit is low enough that the long terms aren't really an issue.

2) That's accurate, but they're also much older, have higher cap hits and will both be UFAs next summer.

I love Thornton and Marleau and I think they still hold pretty high value around the league if DW does decide to move them. I just don't think any of us should expect a Philly style rebuild. We wouldn't get the same level of talent in return.

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02-20-2013, 10:51 PM
  #763
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The McMafia View Post
D & goal is good to go post-Boyle, as you said: Burns, Vlasic, Demers, Braun, and Stuart. All they need is two solid performers out of anyone else. Irwin seems to be the best for #6 at the moment.

Most of the forward positions are okay. Pavelski, Thornton, & Marleau on cheaper contracts. Hertl as 3C. Sheppard, Wingels, Galiardi, Desjardins, Kennedy, Hamilton, Stalberg, Nieto, or whoever else as bottom six. Of course, these guys need to improve in order to stick but, the potential is there.

Havlat and Burish are the only two where I don't see a clear role.

The two holes that I see are big ones: two wings to play with Couture. High quality upcoming or already established young talent. These are the holes that could be fixed by moving Clowe and Boyle.
The more and more I think about it, the more I think we could use more of a rebuild than we are seeing. Not necessarily Pittsburgh/Washington/Edmonton style where the team really tanks and collects high 1st round picks and builds teams around that. That takes too long. What would be better, if possible, would be to move some of the veteran talent for guys on ELC's or second contracts that are good now (note I did not say "very good" because, sadly, it's not like Edmonton will give us Hall or Eberle or Yak for Boyle+ or even Boyle++, but we can dream can't we?).

No, I don't know "who" for "who," but it's a general philosophy I wouldn't mind seeing play out right now.


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02-20-2013, 11:29 PM
  #764
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Originally Posted by glasgow26 View Post
1) That's true, but both Richards and Carter have perfectly reasonable contracts. They're young enough and the cap hit is low enough that the long terms aren't really an issue.

2) That's accurate, but they're also much older, have higher cap hits and will both be UFAs next summer.

I love Thornton and Marleau and I think they still hold pretty high value around the league if DW does decide to move them. I just don't think any of us should expect a Philly style rebuild. We wouldn't get the same level of talent in return.
With long contracts, while Richards and Carters' are probably the better ones, it always makes one uneasy committing for that long. Injuries, etc., and with the new cap penalties in place (not completely aware of what they are).

Overall though, I think you are probably right; their youth does help.

In regards to 2), what did an aging Chris Pronger with one year left on his contract return? I would say that JT is comparable.

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02-21-2013, 01:45 AM
  #765
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We can't trade boyle, he has to stay here until he retires. You just know whatever team he goes to in a trade will murder us until he does.

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02-21-2013, 02:31 AM
  #766
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Maybe I'm in the minority but I see Thornton (I dunno about Patty) taking a paycut putting him in the 5M or less range in caphits. No way we can get any better than a golden god signed for 5M or less through trade.

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02-21-2013, 02:49 AM
  #767
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The McMafia View Post
D & goal is good to go post-Boyle, as you said: Burns, Vlasic, Demers, Braun, and Stuart. All they need is two solid performers out of anyone else. Irwin seems to be the best for #6 at the moment.

Most of the forward positions are okay. Pavelski, Thornton, & Marleau on cheaper contracts. Hertl as 3C. Sheppard, Wingels, Galiardi, Desjardins, Kennedy, Hamilton, Stalberg, Nieto, or whoever else as bottom six. Of course, these guys need to improve in order to stick but, the potential is there.

Havlat and Burish are the only two where I don't see a clear role.

The two holes that I see are big ones: two wings to play with Couture. High quality upcoming or already established young talent. These are the holes that could be fixed by moving Clowe and Boyle.
Not a chance.

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02-21-2013, 08:31 AM
  #768
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do we really think Clowe is worth $4-5 mil per year??? I can't fathom that he is worth that. I'm thinking maybe $2.5-3.5. If he gets more than that, I will lose all confidence in DW.
My god, do you people read the rest of the thread before commenting?

I don't think there's a single person here that thinks clowe is worth it, but I agree with Vaasa that given how they've played clowe over the last couple seasons and how "well" he's played over the same time, the organization WAY overvalues him, and will give him a raise, despite the shrinking cap.

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02-21-2013, 10:00 AM
  #769
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Maybe I'm in the minority but I see Thornton (I dunno about Patty) taking a paycut putting him in the 5M or less range in caphits. No way we can get any better than a golden god signed for 5M or less through trade.
Yeh, I totally agree with you. That is what I am thinking, around the 5 Mil. range. In two seasons, Thornton knows he will basically be the #2 centre as evolution will pass the leadership to Couture. As well good for us, that 'still' meaning a solid #1 and #2 at the centre.

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02-21-2013, 10:38 AM
  #770
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Yeh, I totally agree with you. That is what I am thinking, around the 5 Mil. range. In two seasons, Thornton knows he will basically be the #2 centre as evolution will pass the leadership to Couture. As well good for us, that 'still' meaning a solid #1 and #2 at the centre.
Cup Run in 2014-15:
- Trade Boyle this off season for draft picks or young forward.
- Trade Murray for draft picks.
- Trade Clowe for draft picks.
- Sign Thornton and Marleau to $5mil/5 year deal, $4.9mil/5 year deal respectively (takes them out to retirement)

This allows for a good raise to both Pavelski and Couture to keep them here. Tomas Hertl should be here by then. Flame away

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02-21-2013, 10:53 AM
  #771
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If they're getting 5 year retirement contracts, I would hope the cap hit would be less than 5 million, especially with the reduced salary cap. Maybe a 5 million for 2 years to estimate a decline rate, but if it's for 5 years I would be more comfortable at 4 million give or take a few Gs.

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02-21-2013, 11:17 AM
  #772
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
Yeh, I totally agree with you. That is what I am thinking, around the 5 Mil. range. In two seasons, Thornton knows he will basically be the #2 centre as evolution will pass the leadership to Couture. As well good for us, that 'still' meaning a solid #1 and #2 at the centre.
Really, in two years?

I might see Couture playing so well that he jumps past Thornton, and I can't see Thornton declining to a 2nd line center. Didn't he have his best season in the NHL a year or two ago? And his game does not rely on traits that disappear with age....

Some perspective is needed. Couture, Pavelski, etc. are highly unlikely to ever accomplish what Thornton has accomplished.

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02-21-2013, 11:19 AM
  #773
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Really, in two years?

I might see Couture playing so well that he jumps past Thornton, and I can't see Thornton declining to a 2nd line center. Didn't he have his best season in the NHL a year or two ago? And his game does not rely on traits that disappear with age....

Some perspective is needed. Couture, Pavelski, etc. are highly unlikely to ever accomplish what Thornton has accomplished.
like, not winning a cup?

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02-21-2013, 11:52 AM
  #774
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Originally Posted by superroyain10 View Post
Really, in two years?

I might see Couture playing so well that he jumps past Thornton, and I can't see Thornton declining to a 2nd line center. Didn't he have his best season in the NHL a year or two ago? And his game does not rely on traits that disappear with age....

Some perspective is needed. Couture, Pavelski, etc. are highly unlikely to ever accomplish what Thornton has accomplished.
No disputing the accomplishments of Joe, especially from myself. All here already know my thoughts of big Joe. Just stating, after a couple more seasons, he will be hitting 36 and due to natural decline, Couture will pretty much be the heir apparent. True, Joe in a couple seasons from now, may still be one of the leagues top players, and I myself and my admiration for Thornton as my favourite player am very hopeful of this, the leadership of the Sharks will undoubtedly be shared alongside Couture.

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02-21-2013, 12:01 PM
  #775
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Originally Posted by 19sharks19 View Post
the leadership of the Sharks will undoubtedly be shared alongside Couture.
I fully expect Pavs to get the C when Jumbo is gone,I just dont see Logan as a better 'leader' in the traditional hockey sense. He doesn't seem to have the same passion and accountability, and dare I say it...intangibles. Patty Kane is the more skilled player, but Toews is the better captain, you know.
There needs to be a Toews intangibles ranking like the classless Subbans

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