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Did Pens fans overrate Jordan Staal?

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Old
02-04-2013, 11:06 PM
  #176
Jaded-Fan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WarriorofTime View Post
I think they overrated Brandon Sutter for expecting no drop off from losing Staal. They're definitely a lot less scary this year without Staal there.
The Pens are still number 3 in the NHL in goals scored. We expected to drop off a small bit in scoring between the two, but we had a lot of goals left over to give. The Pens led the NHL in scoring by ten goals last year. Your concern is touching but the Pens seem to be doing fine.

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02-04-2013, 11:15 PM
  #177
tarheelhockey
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What I learned in this thread: Brandon Sutter is overrated because people think he's a #1 center.

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02-04-2013, 11:23 PM
  #178
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What I learned in this thread: Brandon Sutter is overrated because people think he's a #1 center.
The funny thing is that none of those people are Canes' or Pens' fans.

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02-04-2013, 11:29 PM
  #179
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I say "not overrated"; the problem with Jordan Staal is that he was stuck in a bottom-6 role on a stacked team except when Crosby or Malkin or both were hurt. Now, Jordan is only held back by older brother Eric.

As for Brandon Sutter, he is a quality second-or-third line checking center and penalty killer; that trade was only done to get a player with more team control (Jordan Staal would have been hitting UFA status in July at the age of 24 had he not been extended---and his 10-year contract only runs to age 34.) Sutter has 2 additional years of team control.

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02-04-2013, 11:46 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
The funny thing is that none of those people are Canes' or Pens' fans.
Exactly. Brandon Sutter's been exactly what most Canes and Pens fans were expecting, absolutely nothing wrong with that. He's prettymuch the ideal #3 guy.

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02-04-2013, 11:48 PM
  #181
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Just saw his goal, the Leafs defence, LOL.

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02-05-2013, 12:02 AM
  #182
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What I learned in this thread: Brandon Sutter is overrated because people think he's a #1 center.



I also think a few too many people confuse someone saying 'better for the role' for meaning 'no drop-off between players'.

Sutter actually is a third line center, and he fits the role perfectly. Staal outgrew that role and was a third line center in name only. His defense had slipped the past few years as he has focused on offense more and more. Staal is vastly superior, but he's also not a third line center at this stage of his career, nor is he a winger...so I don't blame the guy one bit for wanting to move on. He showed what he could do with legitimate 2nd line responsibilities last year.

Fans of both teams are happy with the trade...nothing else should need to be said.

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02-05-2013, 12:35 AM
  #183
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Both teams seem pretty pleased. I know it's more fun, but not every trade has a loser to flame.

If you want to talk about lopsided trades involving Pittsburgh... see: Dallas.

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02-05-2013, 01:27 AM
  #184
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I think Jordan is good, but like 65 points 2nd line center kind of good. I don't see him having an extra gear that people talk about to be a 1st line, point per game center. The guy is good, no doubt about it, but an annual cap hit of $6 million is too much for a guy that isn't giving you 75+ points. I think $5 million per would have been reasonable for him.

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02-05-2013, 01:56 AM
  #185
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*taken the teams' toughest assignments in both match-ups and how often he starts in the defensive zone (both are actually tougher than what he did in Pits)
*4th in teams even strength points with 1.58 pts/60mins (and no "luck points" aka secondary assists yet)
*well positive possession stats and out-chancing opponents
*team currently has had a 4.92 sh% when he's on the ice, so you know some of the lack of offense is luck and it wouldn't be ridiculous for him to have even twice the points he has now

sounds like he's doing terrible

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02-05-2013, 04:34 AM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Timbo Slice View Post
He's a good player, of course, but yeah, he was overrated. He's playing with Skinner right now, and not exactly tearing it up.
He's averaging a point per game, playing good defense, above 50% on faceoffs, and anchoring a solid scoring line. What's wrong with that, exactly?

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02-05-2013, 05:10 AM
  #187
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Originally Posted by Fordy View Post
Define suffering.
They are not as difficult to play against, Jordan gave them three strong lines. I'm not a Pens fan but when I watched them play, Jordan Stall was always a threat and played a complete game.

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02-05-2013, 06:38 AM
  #188
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
What I learned in this thread: Brandon Sutter is overrated because people think he's a #1 center.
If only he could finish...............

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02-05-2013, 07:50 AM
  #189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Jordan Staal even as a Penguin was a player I always liked and I never understood some of the flak he got from some of the fans on here.
See the writeup at the end of page 3 about Staal's inconsistency. There were times when he'd disappear from the score sheet for a week or two at a time, and then would follow it up with 5 points in 5 games, all the while playing excellent two-way hockey. I was a fan, but his streakiness was frustrating to watch sometimes.

Quote:
Serious question, could it possibly have anything to do that Toews went at #3 right after him? May sound like a stupid question, but it I feel like it's something that could be in the back of some Pens fans minds.
It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that, whether it be here, on other Penguins' boards, or even talking with other fans in general. On the other side of that thought is does Toews become the player that he is today if he was "stuck" in a situation similar to Jordan Staal?

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02-05-2013, 08:40 AM
  #190
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i dont understand this thread

Staal is playing pretty well in Carolina isn't he? 8 pts in 8 games. He's a solid #2 Center. He's not a "shutdown" guy but he is a thoroughbred that can log a ton of minutes and is really tough for the oppostion to play against. He can grind down the opposition, kill penalties, play strong D, score goals, dominate the boards, cycle in the Offensive zone. He's not a great play-maker except for his beast power moves when he takes it to the net. He is also not that good of a stick-handler

I thought his trade was a win-win for both sides. Maybe OP overrated Staal?

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02-05-2013, 08:43 AM
  #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kihei View Post
Jordan Staal pretty much always looks the same to me--a really good hockey player that any team in their right mind would love to have.
Pretty much this

He is a solid 2-way Center with a unique combination of a big body and solid skating, what's not to like?

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02-05-2013, 09:05 AM
  #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt19Oilers View Post
I think Jordan is good, but like 65 points 2nd line center kind of good. I don't see him having an extra gear that people talk about to be a 1st line, point per game center. The guy is good, no doubt about it, but an annual cap hit of $6 million is too much for a guy that isn't giving you 75+ points. I think $5 million per would have been reasonable for him.
Prime example of someone who knows little about hockey. A stat gazer.

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02-05-2013, 09:20 AM
  #193
tarheelhockey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
It wouldn't be the first time I've heard that, whether it be here, on other Penguins' boards, or even talking with other fans in general. On the other side of that thought is does Toews become the player that he is today if he was "stuck" in a situation similar to Jordan Staal?
And what do we think of Jordan Staal if he gets drafted onto that powerhouse 2010 Hawks team? They may not have been quite as good, but he would have individually looked really different in a top-6 role between Kane, Sharp and/or Hossa with two Norris contenders behind him.

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02-05-2013, 10:33 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by iamjs View Post
See the writeup at the end of page 3 about Staal's inconsistency. There were times when he'd disappear from the score sheet for a week or two at a time, and then would follow it up with 5 points in 5 games, all the while playing excellent two-way hockey. I was a fan, but his streakiness was frustrating to watch sometimes.
Any write-up about inconsistency with Jordan Staal can be taken with, oh, I dunno, maybe a shovel or two of salt. First of all, there has never been an issue with consistency of his effort that I've ever heard of or witnessed watching games. So that leaves us to deal with the point counters and score sheet scouting experts. Well, I've gone back through all of his game logs, and besides a lengthy drought from mid-October to mid-November back in '07/08 I don't see a single thing that points to any more streaky of a 3rd line contributor to offense than you'll find anywhere else league-wide - especially when you factor in how little PP time he used to get to put his offense in rhythm when both Crosby and Malkin were healthy and playing. He usually ranked somewhere around 6th-8th in PP icetime/game among Pittsburgh forwards alone. Even last year, with Crosby missing 60 games, Staal was 5th among Penguin forwards in total PP time for the '11/12 season...

I did, however, go back and confirm just how productive he was during times he had to cover for the absence of Sidney Crosby in the lineup. Any team with a teenager/guy in his early, early 20s that can provide you with everything Staal did/does knows they have something pretty special. Turns out some armchair scouts aren't quite as aware, I guess.

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02-05-2013, 11:17 AM
  #195
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This thread has been a roller coaster of terrible. You'd think the two teams involved would be the most passionate and biased... not random, unaffected parties.

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02-05-2013, 12:13 PM
  #196
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Originally Posted by Seminal Velocity View Post
Prime example of someone who knows little about hockey. A stat gazer.
I never said the guy isn't good, I think he's a valuable player and I understand that his two-way play is important. If you're gonna label someone as a "stat gazer" then maybe you should write a little more than just that.

All i'm saying is that IN MY OPINION the canes overpaid for Jordan Staal. He's a great fit as a second line center, but I'm of the opinion that you don't pay $6 million for guys that aren't bona fide first line players. You know who else's cap hits are around $6 million? Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Henrik Zetterberg, Nicklas Backstrom.

I know numbers aren't everything; and Jordan brings a lot to team that doesn't show on the stat sheet, but I just feel that if you're gonna pay Jordan $6 million, there has to be more than just 65ish points to back it up. I know there are other guys that make $6 million that Jordan is better than, but what can I say; there are a ton of overpaid players in the league.

You're free to disagree with me if you like, everyone is entitled to an opinion. But I don't consider myself a "stat gazer".

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02-05-2013, 12:30 PM
  #197
tarheelhockey
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Originally Posted by Matt19Oilers View Post
You know who else's cap hits are around $6 million? Patrick Kane, Jonathan Toews, Daniel Sedin, Henrik Sedin, Henrik Zetterberg, Nicklas Backstrom.
Every player on that list has a slightly higher cap hit than Staal.

What first line center a LOWER cap hit and is more valuable for the next 10 years? Tavares and his discount, sure. Anyone else?

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02-05-2013, 12:37 PM
  #198
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Not overrated, but slightly overpaid as of now. But the leagues full of those. Let's give it a few years and not 9 gms before we make any final determinations.

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02-05-2013, 12:45 PM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
Every player on that list has a slightly higher cap hit than Staal.

What first line center a LOWER cap hit and is more valuable for the next 10 years? Tavares and his discount, sure. Anyone else?
I said AROUND $6million, not exactly $6 million.
According to nhlnumbers.com:

Kane, Toews: $6.3 million
Daniel, Henrik Sedin: $6.1 million
Zetterberg: $6.083 million
Backstrom: $6.0 million

And there's no way to guarantee who will be more or less valuable for the next 10 years; players can drop off and new players can establish themselves at any time.

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02-05-2013, 12:58 PM
  #200
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If anything it looks like Pens fans were right about his offensive potential. That he was being held back by his role.

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