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Best Clutch Goalies

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Old
03-12-2005, 11:56 PM
  #26
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Good point, and I agree. But there's a difference between 1) being the best playoff goalie and 2) being a goalie who raises their level of play the most. Hasek is probably the best at #1, but not necessarily the best at 2.

While I agree that Hasek looked superb in the playoffs we can't just compare save percentage because they've changed so much over the past 2 decades. I would really like to see a list of adjusted for era playoff sv%, but I don't have data for that.
I was curious where you got the regular season save % for the goalies from the 1970s. To my knowledge, the only seasons from that era that were legitimately compiled ( as opposed to estimated) were the three Yuen years. If you have the stats for those other years i would be eternally grateful if you could tell me where you found them.

About your comments on Curtis Joseph: if i were the coach of a sub-.500 team that just squeaked into the playoffs and was hoping for an impossible upset of a powerhouse in the first round, Cujo would be the guy i`d want in nets. On the other hand, if i were the coach of a top team that was a legitimate Cup contender then there`d probably be at least a dozen goalies i`d pick over him.

It was also nice to hear someone mention Mike Palmateer, he was awesome in `78 when they upset the Isles. Everyone remembers Lanny McDonald scoring the OT winner in Game 7, but tend to forget that Palmateer was the only reason the game reached that point.

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Old
03-13-2005, 12:12 AM
  #27
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Unfortunately I don't have the official goalie stats for most the 70's. They were estimated using a very complex and interesting formula by a hockey researcher, so I can't guarantee that they're 100% accurate. With that said, I would be happy to give you a copy of those stats if you want.

Interesting point about Cujo. He always seemed to excel in an underdog role. This is a complete tangent, but he may have been the best goalie to have never won the Vezina. I'll have to check that.

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03-13-2005, 12:19 AM
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider
Unfortunately I don't have the official goalie stats for most the 70's. They were estimated using a very complex and interesting formula by a hockey researcher, so I can't guarantee that they're 100% accurate. With that said, I would be happy to give you a copy of those stats if you want.

Interesting point about Cujo. He always seemed to excel in an underdog role. This is a complete tangent, but he may have been the best goalie to have never won the Vezina. I'll have to check that.
Can you PM me a copy too please sir?

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03-13-2005, 02:48 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Well, the Pens' scare (spring '82) was far from "minor", the Isles were minutes away from elimination! Otherwise, you had the Finals against the Flyers in '80. The sixth game of that series was no doubt controversial, but ultimately, in hindsight, especially in light of the three championships that immediately followed, the Isles were clearly the better team and deserving of the Cup.
That is terrible logic. The Flyers were 25pts ahead of the Isles, and if it weren't for a couple of bad calls that have been documented quite clearly, and you admit to being controversial, they would have headed to Philly for game 7. Philly was a dominant team on home ice.

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03-13-2005, 02:58 AM
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
That is terrible logic. The Flyers were 25pts ahead of the Isles, and if it weren't for a couple of bad calls that have been documented quite clearly, and you admit to being controversial, they would have headed to Philly for game 7. Philly was a dominant team on home ice.
Wow, bitter memories die hard, eh?

Terrible logic? Not necessarily. You just happen to disagree. And understandably so. I would be equally ticked off were the situation reversed. The Isles clearly got a gift on the offsides call. But they took advantage of it. So it goes.

And, to be sure, Philly was the superior team that regular season; the Isles had an underachieving regular season, thanks to Potvin being out 3 months and a severe hangover from the NYR upset playoff loss the prior spring. But the playoffs and regular season are two different things, as you know. Flyers were dominant on home...but NYI took Game One in that series in Philly. So a hypothetical Game Seven win was by no means a sure thing.

Regardless, that was soooo 20th Century. Time for all of us to move on.


Last edited by Trottier: 03-13-2005 at 03:05 AM.
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Old
03-13-2005, 03:17 AM
  #31
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Numbers dont even begin to show how clutch Richter was.

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03-13-2005, 05:17 AM
  #32
12# Peter Bondra
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Also, Salo gets a bad reputation for being a choker, but looking at his stats, his playoff % is better than his regular season %.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/teams/player_b...=1006&hubName=

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Old
03-13-2005, 01:21 PM
  #33
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Interesting analysis, however, there is one glaring ommision. The one stat missing from is Winning Percentage.

At the end of a hockey game, you don't skate back to your goaltender and commend him on his Sv % or GAA. You commend him on winning. That is all that the playoffs are about.

Yes, it's a team stat in large part. But great goalies find a way to be on the winning side of (more) playoff games, regardless of whether it is by a score of 1-0 or 5-4.

IMO, that is the one stat that matters above all others. Ask an NHL GM, coach or player.

Would be highly inciteful to view a comparison of goalies' Career Playoff Winning % vs. the Regular Season.

Of course, I'm not assigning this project to anyone in particular.


Last edited by Trottier: 03-14-2005 at 11:32 PM.
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Old
03-13-2005, 01:27 PM
  #34
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I did this for the first All-Time Draft.

Player - RSGP - POGP - RSW - POW - RSW% - POW% - Dif - RSGAA - POGAA - Dif - Cups
Belfour - 856 _ 161 _ 435 _ 88 _ .593 _ .564 _ -.029 _ 2.43 _ 2.17 _ -.26 _ 1
Vernon - 781 _ 138 _ 385 _ 77 _ .575 _ .579 _ +.004 _ 2.98 _ 2.68 _ -.30 _ 2
Bower - 552 _ 74 _ 250 _ 35 _ .551 _ .507 _ -.044 _ 2.51 _ 2.47 _ -.04 _ 4
Cheevers - 418 _ 88 _ 230 _ 53 _ .658 _ .609 _ -.059 _ 2.89 _ 2.69 _ -.20 _ 2
Hasek - 595 _ 97 _ 296 _ 53 _ .591 _ .576 _ -.015 _ 2.23 _ 2.03 _ -.20 _ 1
Lindbergh - 157 _ 23 _ 87 _ 12 _ .626 _ .545 _ -.81 _ 3.30 _ 3.11 _ -.19 _ 0
Parent - 608 _ 71 _ 271 _ 38 _ .562 _ .535 _ -.027 _ 2.55 _ 2.43 _ -.12 _ 2
Worters - 484 _ 11 _ 171 _ 3 _ .440 _ .364 _ -.076 _ 2.27 _ 2.09 _ -.18 _ 0
Durnan - 383 _ 45 _ 208 _ 27 _ .626 _ .600 _ -.026 _ 2.36 _ 2.07 _ -.29 _ 2
Hainsworth - 465 _ 52 _ 246 _ 22 _ .609 _ .471 _ -.138 _ 1.93 _ 1.93 _ 0 _ 2
Sawchuck - 972 _ 106 _ 446 _ 54 _ .560 _ .529 _ -.031 _ 2.51 _ 2.54 _ +.03 _ 4
Fuhr - 868 _ 150 _ 403 _ 92 _ .567 _ .648 _ +.081 _ 3.38 _ 2.92 _ -.46 _ 4/5
Plante - 837 _ 112 _ 435 _ 71 _ .614 _ .664 _ +.050 _ 2.38 _ 2.14 _ -.24 _ 6
Thompson - 553 _ 44 _ 284 _ 20 _ .581 _ .455 _ -.126 _ 2.08 _ 1.88 _ -.20 _ 1
Hall - 906 _ 115 _ 407 _ 49 _ .545 _ .430 _ -.115 _ 2.49 _ 2.78 _ +.29 _ 1
Brodeur - 740 _ 144 _ 403 _ 84 _ .628 _ .583 _ -.045 _ 2.17 _ 1.87 _ -.30 _ 3
Esposito - 886 _ 99 _ 423 _ 45 _ .566 _ .459 _ -.107 _ 2.92 _ 3.07 _ +.15 _ 0/1
Richter - 666 _ 76 _ 301 _ 41 _ .534 _ .554 _ +.020 _ 2.89 _ 2.68 _ -.21 _ 1
Roy - 1029 _ 247 _ 551 _ 151 _ .618 _ .616 _ -.002 _ 2.54 _ 2.30 _ -.24 _ 4
Smith - 680 _ 132 _ 305 _ 88 _ .556 _ .710 _ +.154 _ 3.17 _ 2.73 _ -.44 _ 4
Dryden - 397 _ 112 _ 258 _ 80 _ .758 _ .714 _ -.044 _ 2.24 _ 2.40 _ +.16 _ 6
Broda - 629 _ 101 _ 302 _ 60 _ .562 _ .606 _ +.044 _ 2.53 _ 1.98 _ -.55 _ 5

Player - GAADif
1. Broda -.55
2. Fuhr -.46
3. Smith -.44
4. Brodeur -.30
4. Vernon -.30
6. Durnan -.29
7. Belfour -.26
8. Plante -.24
8. Roy -.24
10. Richter -.21
11. Cheevers -.20
11. Hasek -.20
11. Thompson -.20
14. Lindbergh -.19
15. Worters -.18
16. Parent -12
17. Bower -.04
18. Hainsworth 0
19. Sawchuk +.03
20. Esposito +.15
21. Dryden +.16
22. Hall +.29

Player - W%Dif
1. Smith +.154
2. Fuhr +.081
3. Plante +.050
4. Broda +.044
5. Richter +.020
6. Vernon +.004
7. Roy -.002
8. Hasek -.015
9. Durnan -.026
10. Parent -.027
11. Belfour -.029
12. Sawchuk -.031
13. Bower -.044
13. Dryden -.044
15. Brodeur -.045
16. Cheevers -.059
17. Worters -.076
18. Lindbergh -.081
19. Esposito -.107
20. Hall -.115
21. Thompson -.126
22. Hainsworth -.138


Last edited by BM67: 03-13-2005 at 07:46 PM. Reason: Updated for 03-04
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Old
03-13-2005, 09:20 PM
  #35
reckoning
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BM67
I did this for the first All-Time Draft.

Player - W%Dif
1. Smith +.154
2. Fuhr +.081
3. Plante +.050
4. Broda +.044
5. Richter +.020
6. Vernon +.004
7. Roy -.002
8. Hasek -.015
9. Durnan -.026
10. Parent -.027
11. Belfour -.029
12. Sawchuk -.031
13. Bower -.044
13. Dryden -.044
15. Brodeur -.045
16. Cheevers -.059
17. Worters -.076
18. Lindbergh -.081
19. Esposito -.107
20. Hall -.115
21. Thompson -.126
22. Hainsworth -.138
That`s an interesting chart, but the main problem i have something like that is that it`s harder to win games the further into the playoffs you go. For example, last year Montreal beat Boston 4-3 in the first round then lost 4-0 to Tampa in the second. So Boston ( 3-4, .429) ends up with a better winning % than Montreal ( 4-7, .364) even though M,ontreal eliminated them.

Despite that, the lead Smith has over everybody else on that list is astonishing.

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03-13-2005, 09:31 PM
  #36
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for all this talk of brodeur being clutch.......look up his playoff OT record, it's not just bad, it's absurdly bad.

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03-13-2005, 10:39 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blamebettman
for all this talk of brodeur being clutch.......look up his playoff OT record, it's not just bad, it's absurdly bad.
Yes, but does any other goalie even come close to having a third of their playoff losses come in OT? Is it Brodeur's fault when he loses a 4 OT 1-0 game to Hasek and the Sabres?

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03-13-2005, 11:52 PM
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by reckoning
Despite that, the lead Smith has over everybody else on that list is astonishing.
True, and it is a highly instructive statistic, for it backs up precisely what those of us who saw him play know: that he a good NHL goalie from October-March, and a demi-God from April-May.

Statistics on their own (without the context of having witnessed a player) are often meaningless, and so often misused on these boards.

Not so in this case.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blamebettman
for all this talk of brodeur being clutch.......look up his playoff OT record, it's not just bad, it's absurdly bad.
If one were seeking an explanation of the saying "can't see the forest for the trees," your comment would be the example provided.

Yep, that Brodeur isn't clutch...based on his OT record.

...Meanwhile, no mention of three Cups.

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03-14-2005, 12:23 AM
  #39
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Going by my opinion and goalies I seen play here is my top 5. Based on goalies who went above and beyond when it counts.

1. Billy Smith - No second guesses here for me.
2. Patrick Roy - "86" and "93" was the backbone of both cups.
3. Bill Ranford - Was absolutely awsome in "89" playoffs.
4. Martin Brodeur - Just look at his history in the playoffs and International play.
5. Dominik Hasek - His "98" olympics is enough for me not to me.

Other notables are Ed Belfour, Mike Vernon, Grant Fuhr and Ron Hextall.

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Old
03-14-2005, 08:03 PM
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juicer
That is terrible logic. The Flyers were 25pts ahead of the Isles, and if it weren't for a couple of bad calls that have been documented quite clearly, and you admit to being controversial, they would have headed to Philly for game 7. Philly was a dominant team on home ice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trottier
Wow, bitter memories die hard, eh?

Terrible logic? Not necessarily. You just happen to disagree. And understandably so. I would be equally ticked off were the situation reversed. The Isles clearly got a gift on the offsides call. But they took advantage of it. So it goes.

And, to be sure, Philly was the superior team that regular season; the Isles had an underachieving regular season, thanks to Potvin being out 3 months and a severe hangover from the NYR upset playoff loss the prior spring. But the playoffs and regular season are two different things, as you know. Flyers were dominant on home...but NYI took Game One in that series in Philly. So a hypothetical Game Seven win was by no means a sure thing.
From one of the Flyers players, on that team, stated recently:

NHL.com Bridgman Interview
... he (Bridgman) returned to the Stanley Cup Finals with the Flyers in 1980, only to lose to the New York Islanders. Mention some of the calls in Game 6 around Philadelphia even today and you send the natives' blood pressures skyrocketing. The athletes see it differently, however.

"You always look back, even though it was 25 years ago," Bridgman said. "We lost home-ice advantage in the first game. In the sixth game, there were some calls that might have been controversial, but that doesn't mean if the officials didn't make those calls that we would have won. It might have given us another chance but no guarantee. Calls are part of sports.

"The Islanders had a great team and so did we. Really, losing the home-ice advantage hurt us. If we scored on the chances we had, it might have been different, but it was a great series.

"I still remember the police escort from the Nassau Coliseum to the airport. As much as that game was disappointing, when you lose in a series like that and after the streak we had that year, there were a lot of great moments. To go down in six games to a team that won four Stanley Cups in a row, well, we were playing a very good hockey club."


Last edited by cleduc: 03-15-2005 at 05:50 AM.
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Old
03-14-2005, 09:02 PM
  #41
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Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
One Bernard Marcel Parent, and his back-to-back Conn Smythe's certainly deserves a mention.
I have to agree.....for me, its he and Smith neck and neck

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