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HOH Top 40 Goalies - Participants Survey

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02-03-2013, 08:09 PM
  #1
overpass
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HOH Top 40 Goalies - Participants Survey

Now that the results of the HOH Top 60 Goalies project are complete, here are the results of a survey of the participants. 22 of 27 participants who submitted a list for Round 1 and were eligible for Round 2 have sent their responses for this survey.

Q1: Age
Age CountPercent
Under 20 00%
20-29 835%
30-39 1148%
40-49 14%
50-59 00%
60+ 29%
Did not answer 14%

The project participants were primarily aged 20-40.

Q2: Nationality
Country CountPercent
Canada 1148%
United States 1043%
Sweden 14%
Slovakia 14%

The survey also broke down Canadians by region. Sorry Americans - I didn't realize you were so well represented in the project or I might have done the same for you.

Region CountPercent
Atlantic Canada 29%
Quebec 313%
Ontario 313%
Western Canada 313%

Q3: Favourite NHL team (Multiple mentions accepted)
Team CountPercent
Pittsburgh Penguins 417%
Toronto Maple Leafs 417%
Carolina Hurricanes 313%
Montreal Canadiens 313%
Boston Bruins 29%
Hartford Whalers 29%
Ottawa Senators 29%
Anaheim Ducks 14%
Buffalo Sabres 14%
Chicago Blackhawks 14%
Colorado Avalanche 14%
Quebec Nordiques 14%
Detroit Red Wings 14%
New Jersey Devils 14%
Vancouver Canucks 14%
Vancouver Millionaires 14%
Washington Capitals 14%
None 14%

The project had a wide range of fans from different NHL teams.

Q4: Playing experience
Level CountPercent
I have played organized hockey at a major junior level (or equivalent) or higher 00%
I have played organized hockey at a competitive level 522%
I have played organized hockey at a low level 730%
I have played recreational hockey only 939%
I have not or have very rarely played hockey 29%

Q5: Goaltender experience
Level CountPercent
I have played goaltender at the major junior level (or equivalent) or higher 00%
I have played goaltender at a competitive level 14%
I have played goaltender in low level organized hockey 313%
I have played goaltender in recreational hockey 626%
I have not or have rarely played goaltender 1357%

Q6: Coaching experience
Level CountPercent
I have coached hockey at a competitive level or higher 313%
I have coached hockey at a low level 29%
I have not coached hockey 1878%

Q7: What era or eras of hockey were your favourite to watch? (Multiple responses accepted)
Era CountPercent
Original Six NHL (1946-1967) 29%
Expansion/WHA NHL(1968-1979) 29%
1980s NHL (1980-89) 522%
Early 90s NHL (90-96) 1357%
Turn of century NHL (97-04) 835%
Post-lockout NHL (06-present) 835%
Soviet era international hockey (pre-1992) 29%
Post-Soviet era international hockey (1992 and later) 417%

The responses here are not surprising, considering the age demographics.

One respondent added "junior hockey", which is a category that probably should have been included.

Q8: Please rate the following sources of information in importance to your opinions on this project from 1 to 5, where 1 is not important at all and 5 is extremely important. (Please respond thinking only of those players for whom the category applies. Obviously none of us watched Georges Vezina in person. For example, if you have watched 10 players in the project in person, and you would give Personal observation - in attendance at the game a ranking of 3 in importance for those 10 players, please respond with 3.)

Source 1 2 3 4 5 Count Average
Personal observation - Watching on TV at the time 0 0 8 7 7 22 3.95
Personal observation - Watching archived video of past games 0 4 8 8 3 23 3.43
Personal observation - In attendance at the game 7 4 2 7 2 22 2.68
Statistics - Advanced/adjusted stats 1 2 7 7 6 23 3.65
Statistics - Traditional (hockey card) stats 3 5 7 8 0 23 2.87
Contemporary opinion - Awards voting results 0 1 5 10 7 23 4.00
Contemporary opinion - Quotes from newspaper archives and other contemporary sources 0 1 6 8 8 23 4.00
Contemporary opinion - As experienced personally 0 1 4 14 4 23 3.91
Secondary sources - Opinions and anecdotes from observers and participants looking backwards - whether in books, later interviews, or other sources 1 3 4 12 3 23 3.57
Secondary sources - Other goalie rankings published 6 7 7 2 1 23 2.35

The eye test was an important factor in ranking goaltenders that participants saw. However, because of the scope of the project, statistics and contemporary opinion on the goaltenders were the main sources for many of the older goalies.

9. How important were the following factors to you in rating goaltenders? Please rate each on a scale of 1 to 5, where 1 is not important at all and 5 is extremely important.
Factor 1 2 3 4 5 Count Average
Stanley Cup playoff performance 0 0 2 6 15 23 4.57
Regular season performance (NHL) 0 0 1 10 12 23 4.48
Performance in international tournaments 0 3 11 4 5 23 3.48
Performance in other domestic leagues 2 7 8 6 0 23 2.78
Shot-stopping performance 0 2 2 9 10 23 4.17
All non-shot-stopping factors (puck handling, integration with skaters, rebound control, etc) 1 5 10 5 2 23 3.09
Technical innovation 1 5 10 7 0 23 3.00
Technical excellence 2 7 9 4 1 23 2.78
Peak performance 0 0 4 14 5 23 4.04
Durability/consistency 0 0 9 8 6 23 3.87
Longevity 0 1 7 12 3 23 3.74
Personality/being a good teammate 10 7 2 2 2 23 2.09

One respondent also mentioned that the ability to integrate a team by understanding and fulfilling a role was important.

Q10: Comments/feedback/suggestions?
There were several positive comments about the project.
  • Three comments saying it was a lot of fun/learned a lot
  • Three comments thanking the admins for their work in putting the project together
Suggestions (all are single mentions, I'm paraphrasing so individuals can't be easily identified):
  • The people creating the aggregate list should be clearly identified before voting and should not participate in discussion or voting, to prevent bias.
  • Broader discussion about more players rather than just 3-4 players who are up for voting.
  • More justification for votes in the discussion - i.e. high votes for a player who hasn't been discussed or has been dismissed, or low votes for a player on whom the discussion is generally positive.
  • Didn't like trying to change the project from 40 to 50 goalies, or the loose deadlines for voting.
  • Biased against traditionalists.
  • Too many personal attacks during discussions


Last edited by overpass: 02-05-2013 at 08:02 PM.
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02-03-2013, 08:54 PM
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seventieslord
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- it's scary that a goalie's playoff performance (which is a sample size typically 1/10 to 1/5 of their career) is valued as much as their regular season performance.

- who would want to administrate this and then not participate? What bias would it prevent if we found people willing to do that?

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02-03-2013, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- who would want to administrate this and then not participate? What bias would it prevent if we found people willing to do that?
I believe the issue is that in the second round of discussion, most of the participants don't know what the aggregate and individual lists from Round 1 looked like, and the admins do know.

I agree that it seems unlikely that someone would put in the work to administrate without taking part in the discussions and voting at all.

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02-03-2013, 09:21 PM
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Judges and Moderators

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- it's scary that a goalie's playoff performance (which is a sample size typically 1/10 to 1/5 of their career) is valued as much as their regular season performance.

- who would want to administrate this and then not participate? What bias would it prevent if we found people willing to do that?
Moderators and administrators of all types of debates and discussions do not participate in the actual debate or discussions. Observe various political debates.

Then you have judges at various levels of the legal system throughout Canada and the USA that manage the fairness of the process without representing a side in the process.

In a hockey context, referees and linesmen do not go on the ice equipped with hockey sticks so they can play the puck.

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02-03-2013, 09:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Moderators and administrators of all types of debates and discussions do not participate in the actual debate or discussions. Observe various political debates.

Then you have judges at various levels of the legal system throughout Canada and the USA that manage the fairness of the process without representing a side in the process.

In a hockey context, referees and linesmen do not go on the ice equipped with hockey sticks so they can play the puck.
None these make any sense.
The role of the administrator of this project is vastly different to all of those you've listed.

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02-03-2013, 09:27 PM
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True

Quote:
Originally Posted by overpass View Post
I believe the issue is that in the second round of discussion, most of the participants don't know what the aggregate and individual lists from Round 1 looked like, and the admins do know.

I agree that it seems unlikely that someone would put in the work to administrate without taking part in the discussions and voting at all.
And as such that creates a bias and advantage in their presentations while putting the other participants at a distinct disadvantage. The administrators know going in where the key breakpoints are in the aggregate list and can strategically argue while the rest are denied this knowledge and resulting advantages.

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02-03-2013, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
And as such that creates a bias and advantage in their presentations while putting the other participants at a distinct disadvantage. The administrators know going in where the key breakpoints are in the aggregate list and can strategically argue while the rest are denied this knowledge and resulting advantages.
that's absurd.

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02-03-2013, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
And as such that creates a bias and advantage in their presentations while putting the other participants at a distinct disadvantage. The administrators know going in where the key breakpoints are in the aggregate list and can strategically argue while the rest are denied this knowledge and resulting advantages.
I don't think the administrators have any interest in manipulating the outcome of the project.

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02-03-2013, 10:46 PM
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TheDevilMadeMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- it's scary that a goalie's playoff performance (which is a sample size typically 1/10 to 1/5 of their career) is valued as much as their regular season performance.
I doubt many voters were thinking of this kind of math when they filled out the question. I know I wasn't.

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02-03-2013, 10:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Moderators and administrators of all types of debates and discussions do not participate in the actual debate or discussions. Observe various political debates.

Then you have judges at various levels of the legal system throughout Canada and the USA that manage the fairness of the process without representing a side in the process.

In a hockey context, referees and linesmen do not go on the ice equipped with hockey sticks so they can play the puck.
Thanks for letting us know that you're the one who made that comment. You've been consistently taking shots at the administrators of the project, basically ever since Frank Brimsek was added before Bill Durnan and Turk Broda (though I don't know if that's why you're doing it). So I'll evaluate the merits of the comment in light of that context.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
And as such that creates a bias and advantage in their presentations while putting the other participants at a distinct disadvantage. The administrators know going in where the key breakpoints are in the aggregate list and can strategically argue while the rest are denied this knowledge and resulting advantages.
If that's the way you feel about the way seventieslord and I behaved ourselves, you are welcome not to not participate in any projects I may admin in the future.

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02-03-2013, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
I doubt many voters were thinking of this kind of math when they filled out the question. I know I wasn't.
And yet, what was the number one line of argument in support of Roy over Hasek? Playoffs.

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02-04-2013, 03:07 AM
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By the way, thanks for doing this, overpass. Overpass has been a de facto unofficial assistant administrator for the project. Most important, helping us to run Excel functions on the aggregate list that neither 70s nor I really knew how to do. I also asked if he could run the participant survey, since he did so for the defenseman project.

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02-04-2013, 07:35 AM
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Democracy

Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
- it's scary that a goalie's playoff performance (which is a sample size typically 1/10 to 1/5 of their career) is valued as much as their regular season performance.

- who would want to administrate this and then not participate? What bias would it prevent if we found people willing to do that?
Yet the point of view in question is important to real important to 20 out of 22 of the respondents,a near unanimous view.

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02-04-2013, 08:29 AM
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Crap, I forgot to answer...

OH well, gotta send it regardless sooner or later, IF I'm being told the results will be taken in consideration.

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02-04-2013, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
Crap, I forgot to answer...

OH well, gotta send it regardless sooner or later, IF I'm being told the results will be taken in consideration.
If you send it I'll add it to the results.

Edit: Added.


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02-04-2013, 02:29 PM
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I thought the number of Montreal fans looked a little low.

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02-04-2013, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Moderators and administrators of all types of debates and discussions do not participate in the actual debate or discussions. Observe various political debates.

Then you have judges at various levels of the legal system throughout Canada and the USA that manage the fairness of the process without representing a side in the process.

In a hockey context, referees and linesmen do not go on the ice equipped with hockey sticks so they can play the puck.
Moderators and judges are financially compensated.

This is suppose to be for the enjoyment of all concerned.

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02-04-2013, 05:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
And as such that creates a bias and advantage in their presentations while putting the other participants at a distinct disadvantage. The administrators know going in where the key breakpoints are in the aggregate list and can strategically argue while the rest are denied this knowledge and resulting advantages.
How does that give anyone an advantage? I didn't know there was a strategy to presenting a case for or against a player.

Sounds like sour grapes from someone who wanted to manipulate the process.

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02-04-2013, 05:39 PM
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Moderators and judges are financially compensated.
Not always. There are innumerable situations whereby individuals quite voluntarily and without compensation of anykind whatsoever act as moderators, referee's, adjudicators... depends on the situation, circumstances, goals & objectives. It may be Old Fashioned Mr.Bonvie, but those of us "of a certain age" (over 45, less than 95) come from a school whereby even in a "strictly for fun environment" for"the enjoyment of all" real world rules are in fact applied. Moderators & Administrators are not permitted to participate in order to insure utterly & completely that questions of integrity wont even be raised. Its not a slight against anyone, its simply procedure. Indeed, there are a number of chat boards out there that are Moderated by people who dont ever post or contribute to whatever the dialogue might be, but their watchin, editing, deleting, Warning & Infracting people.... believe me. Know all about it. You think youve carte blanche then BAM! They dont participate in the conversations, dont set the tone, not there to voice an opinion, there strictly to keep decorum, mediate disputes quietly & privately off-board. Anything more frowned upon. Complete, total & utter objectivity. Cold, clear concise Spockian Logic the only thing they employ.

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02-04-2013, 05:52 PM
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Not always. There are innumerable situations whereby individuals quite voluntarily and without compensation of anykind whatsoever act as moderators, referee's, adjudicators... depends on the situation, circumstances, goals & objectives. It may be Old Fashioned Mr.Bonvie, but those of us "of a certain age" (over 45, less than 95) come from a school whereby even in a "strictly for fun environment" for"the enjoyment of all" real world rules are in fact applied. Moderators & Administrators are not permitted to participate in order to insure utterly & completely that questions of integrity wont even be raised. Its not a slight against anyone, its simply procedure. Indeed, there are a number of chat boards out there that are Moderated by people who dont ever post or contribute to whatever the dialogue might be, but their watchin, editing, deleting, Warning & Infracting people.... believe me. Know all about it. You think youve carte blanche then BAM! They dont participate in the conversations, dont set the tone, not there to voice an opinion, there strictly to keep decorum, mediate disputes quietly & privately off-board.
Guess what, Mr. Killion? Mr. Bonvie is in that very age group. And speaking in the third person shows just how well into it he is.

The poster I was responding to took the comparison out of the LaLaLand of boards and chat rooms to court judges and politcal debate moderators and hockey officials. I understand that moderators here on my screen are not paid. But I still do not see how the people who put in all the work of setting up this procedure and keep track of votes and everthing else going on are somehow unfairly at an "advatage" by doing so.

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02-04-2013, 06:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
The poster I was responding to took the comparison out of the LaLaLand of boards and chat rooms to court judges and politcal debate moderators and hockey officials. I understand that moderators here on my screen are not paid. But I still do not see how the people who put in all the work of setting up this procedure and keep track of votes and everthing else going on are somehow unfairly at an "advantage" by doing so.
Well literally perhaps, but if we use a little imagination..... like the Parish Priest who in 1946 was Refereeing a game in St. Justine Quebec, un-paid, strictly volunteer. A young Roch Carrier jumping onto the ice as 6th man in wearing his Leafs jersey that Mr. Eaton sent to his home by mistake. Given a penalty. Has a Hissy Fit. Sent to the Tabernac to ask for forgiveness. Instead asking the Creator to "send me, right away, one hundred million moths to eat my Toronto Maple Leafs jersey". Theres a case of someone "volunteering" to referee, moderate, adjudicate, dispense justice. No stick in the Pretre's hands. Just a Whistle.

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02-04-2013, 06:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Killion View Post
Well literally perhaps, but if we use a little imagination..... like the Parish Priest who in 1946 was Refereeing a game in St. Justine Quebec, un-paid, strictly volunteer. A young Roch Carrier jumping onto the ice as 6th man in wearing his Leafs jersey that Mr. Eaton sent to his home by mistake. Given a penalty. Has a Hissy Fit. Sent to the Tabernac to ask for forgiveness. Instead asking the Creator to "send me, right away, one hundred million moths to eat my Toronto Maple Leafs jersey". Theres a case of someone "volunteering" to referee, moderate, adjudicate, dispense justice. No stick in the Pretre's hands. Just a Whistle.
So there's an example (hockey-related, even) of someone who volunteered for a task. How does that relate to this case, where no one volunteered to do this without also participating? (Follow-up: since no one volunteered to do this without also participating, was the preferred outcome that it not happen at all?)

Back to the question you were responding to: how did the people administering this process gain an advantage by being involved?

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02-04-2013, 08:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
So there's an example (hockey-related, even) of someone who volunteered for a task. How does that relate to this case, where no one volunteered to do this without also participating? (Follow-up: since no one volunteered to do this without also participating, was the preferred outcome that it not happen at all?)

Back to the question you were responding to: how did the people administering this process gain an advantage by being involved?
I don't think anyone had the intention to take advantage of being an admin in the project. Not at all. And I'm not even sure that anyone has suggested that is the case.

As someone who has seen the aggregate lists before discussions, I think there is the potential for that knowledge to influence what you research and what you argue. I chose to research Glenn Hall in the first round of voting, with a focus on his playoffs. Now I thought it was an interesting topic and an important one that could use some research. But I also knew that Hall was ranked fourth on the aggregate list and was in a position where he could finish anywhere from fourth to sixth in the voting. I didn't have an agenda in my study of Hall, I think it was honest inquiry and I might have chosen that topic anyway - but it was informed by the knowledge that Hall was in a "swing" position. I can't lock that knowledge out of my brain when I go to post in the discussion.

Same thing when I posted about Tretiak later - I really thought more should be posted about him, but I also knew he and Brimsek were neck and neck for 8th in round 1 voting.

So maybe in an ideal world you'd have an admin who did nothing but run the project and who never posted anything. But like you said, that was never an option since nobody was offering to be that admin. I wasn't, you weren't, C1958 wasn't. TDMM and seventieslord did volunteer to administer the project and deserve a lot of credit for that.

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02-04-2013, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
So there's an example (hockey-related, even) of someone who volunteered for a task. How does that relate to this case, where no one volunteered to do this without also participating? (Follow-up: since no one volunteered to do this without also participating, was the preferred outcome that it not happen at all?)

Back to the question you were responding to: how did the people administering this process gain an advantage by being involved?
Im not claiming they did nor is anyone else, far from it. But to address your questions, was there an "open invitation" proffered in seeking volunteers to administrate & lightly moderate without actually participating in the debating & voting process's themselves? 70's & TDMM did an absolutely Sterling job of it, no question about that, countless hours of entertainment & edification for one & all be you simply audience or player.... however, if one is to absolutely remove any and all whisper of subjectivity, partisanship & or bias from such an exercise I would most respectfully suggest that the roles of Moderators & Administrators pursuant to such an exercise be "open to tender". Members & Moderators/Admin volunteer for the role without actually voting but instead refereeing debate, establishing parameters, collating & enumerating votes, vetting source information & so on & so forth. Better they should abstain from voting altogether as overpass above illustrates in the Hall & Tretiak examples of what can happen when information & administration collide and overloads the circuits.


Last edited by Killion: 02-04-2013 at 08:19 PM.
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02-04-2013, 08:44 PM
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Im not claiming they did nor is anyone else, far from it. But to address your questions, was there an "open invitation" proffered in seeking volunteers to administrate & lightly moderate without actually participating in the debating & voting process's themselves? 70's & TDMM did an absolutely Sterling job of it, no question about that, countless hours of entertainment & edification for one & all be you simply audience or player.... however, if one is to absolutely remove any and all whisper of subjectivity, partisanship & or bias from such an exercise I would most respectfully suggest that the roles of Moderators & Administrators pursuant to such an exercise be "open to tender". Members & Moderators/Admin volunteer for the role without actually voting but instead refereeing debate, establishing parameters, collating & enumerating votes, vetting source information & so on & so forth. Better they should abstain from voting altogether as overpass above illustrates in the Hall & Tretiak examples of what can happen when information & administration collide and overloads the circuits.
When you find these people who are interested in spending the (estimated) 40-80 hours each that it takes to administer one of these things from start to end, but aren't interested in actually participating in the discussions, please let us know. I agree that if you could find one of these people, it does make the procedure slightly more scientific. Right now, the best we can do is to parcel out the aggregate list according to its "natural breaks."


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-04-2013 at 08:52 PM.
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