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All Encompassing Winger Acquisition Thread | Part II: "The Winger Mystery Deepens"

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Old
02-07-2013, 09:33 AM
  #676
Jag68Sid87
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Kulemin may not put up great offensive numbers here (I think he'd be 20+30 or so) but his game is so different from Poni's... He will be great without the puck or points.
Which is EXACTLY what Poni was before he landed in Pittsburgh...and is still pretty good at in Winnipeg. And was good at with the Devils. Strong without the puck and even when not putting up points.

We do NOT NEED another player of this ilk. We'd be wasting valuable time and assets trying to acquire yet another scoring winger who simply isn't one.

Again, if Toronto is willing to move Phil Kessel, you listen.

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02-07-2013, 09:33 AM
  #677
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It's funny how much different people love different prospects. I for one had no idea we had such studs on our hands in Harrington and Dumo.
Sort of like we had people blow off Bort and Strait and say they were waiver wire fodder.

Who knew these guys could play in the NHL? I mean, unless you actually watched them....

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02-07-2013, 09:39 AM
  #678
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Sort of like we had people blow off Bort and Strait and say they were waiver wire fodder.

Who knew these guys could play in the NHL? I mean, unless you actually watched them....
Actually, I don't really get the hand-wringing over Strait. Serviceable bottom pair guys are not that hard to find, sure maybe some clubs need them badly but we have them to spare. I really don't see Strait as any more than that.

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02-07-2013, 09:45 AM
  #679
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Which is EXACTLY what Poni was before he landed in Pittsburgh...and is still pretty good at in Winnipeg. And was good at with the Devils. Strong without the puck and even when not putting up points.

We do NOT NEED another player of this ilk. We'd be wasting valuable time and assets trying to acquire yet another scoring winger who simply isn't one.

Again, if Toronto is willing to move Phil Kessel, you listen.
I'd personally love to have kessel on this team, I think he's the perfect guy for Kunitz - Crosby.

As for Poni - Kulemin: I watch far too many leafs games (live in Toronto and married to a leafs fan) and I don't think they're similar players. But I understand your concerns. Don't think Kulemin is the missing piece, but do think he can help.

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02-07-2013, 09:49 AM
  #680
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Actually, I don't really get the hand-wringing over Strait. Serviceable bottom pair guys are not that hard to find, sure maybe some clubs need them badly but we have them to spare. I really don't see Strait as any more than that.
Is he proving he can play in the NHL and help his team? Yep.

Most of us who saw him, generally agreed he was going to max out as a #5.

Dumoulin and Harrington both have racked up tons of accolades and praise by scouts, coaches, and GMs. When you watch them, it isn't hard to see why and nothing in their games suggest they will struggle in the NHL, aside from Harrington getting stronger.

Sorry we can't always be negative about our prospects, since that is the cool thing to do.

If it makes you feel better I keep saying Kuhn and Zlobin are nothing to be excited about. I know people feed off of negativity, so no need to thank me for making your day a little brighter.

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02-07-2013, 09:50 AM
  #681
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I don't see a trade with Toronto as likely. When was the last time they sold off current pieces for future pieces? It's just not their MO. I just can't see them dealing Kessel or Kulemin for non-NHL pieces.

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02-07-2013, 09:53 AM
  #682
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Is he proving he can play in the NHL and help his team? Yep.

Most of us who saw him, generally agreed he was going to max out as a #5.

Dumoulin and Harrington both have racked up tons of accolades and praise by scouts, coaches, and GMs. When you watch them, it isn't hard to see why and nothing in their games suggest they will struggle in the NHL, aside from Harrington getting stronger.

Sorry we can't always be negative about our prospects, since that is the cool thing to do.

If it makes you feel better I keep saying Kuhn and Zlobin are nothing to be excited about. I know people feed off of negativity, so no need to thank me for making your day a little brighter.
It's not that, it's just hard to make up trade scenarios if all these guys are untouchable.

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02-07-2013, 10:02 AM
  #683
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Which is EXACTLY what Poni was before he landed in Pittsburgh...and is still pretty good at in Winnipeg. And was good at with the Devils. Strong without the puck and even when not putting up points.

We do NOT NEED another player of this ilk. We'd be wasting valuable time and assets trying to acquire yet another scoring winger who simply isn't one.

Again, if Toronto is willing to move Phil Kessel, you listen.
We don't have a player of Kulemin's ilk.

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02-07-2013, 10:06 AM
  #684
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
It's not that, it's just hard to make up trade scenarios if all these guys are untouchable.
I don't see anyone saying they are all untouchable. Just people arguing who they would prefer to be moved.

A lot of us agree Maatta is expendable. I also just laid out a scenario where DP could be expendable and I prefer Harrington to be moved over Dumoulin and others feel the opposite.

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02-07-2013, 10:12 AM
  #685
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I don't see anyone saying they are all untouchable. Just people arguing who they would prefer to,be moved.

A lot of us agree Maatta is expendable. i also just laid out a scenario where DP could be expendable and I prefer Harrington to be moved over Dumoulin and others feel the opposite.
To me it's like, oughtn't we at least wait until DP and Maata have gone pro before we even think about trading them? Theoretically DP has the highest upside of all of them. To value the likes of Dumo over either Maatta and DP, I don't get at all.

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02-07-2013, 10:14 AM
  #686
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It's interesting because I remember Maata was rated #10-15 in a lot of places and Pouliot was ranked much lower (I think in the early 2nd round in some cases), but if you ask most people here it's like Maata is less valuable because of where we picked him.

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02-07-2013, 10:17 AM
  #687
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
It's interesting because I remember Maata was rated #10-15 in a lot of places and Pouliot was ranked much lower (I think in the early 2nd round in some cases), but if you ask most people here it's like Maata is less valuable because of where we picked him.
That's true. But I also have read some glittering reports on Pouliot. These guys are a few years away from being in play. It's no accident that such raw, potential blue chip prospects rarely get moved, their value is too much unknown.

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02-07-2013, 10:22 AM
  #688
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Originally Posted by UnderratedBrooks44 View Post
It's interesting because I remember Maata was rated #10-15 in a lot of places and Pouliot was ranked much lower (I think in the early 2nd round in some cases), but if you ask most people here it's like Maata is less valuable because of where we picked him.
Maatta is less valuable because he can be a bonehead at times and isn't even close to having the dynamic game DP does.

Some like IHWR prefer Maatta, but it isn't rocket surgery to figure out Shero likes DP more based on where he drafted each. His opinion is obviously the one that matters.

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02-07-2013, 10:33 AM
  #689
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think if Morrow works out and Letang re-signs, that DP will become expendable. Of course cue the "he should of drafted a winger" crowd, but again this is projecting. We could have a situation where Letang wants too much and is moved, Morrow busts out (hard for me to believe, but you have to allow for the possibility) etc.

I don't like to say DP is expendable because I love his game, but if Despres, Morrow and Letang are on this team, I'd rather see guys like Harrington or Dumoulin, or if they bust out, blue liners of similar ilk rounding out their core.

The one thing we have agreed on for awhile, even though others wanted to cast him aside, is that Bort has always been a prospect who is part of this team's future.
I agree on all points here, and I think that's the reality in it. Though, I think that's a hard decision to let Letang walk if he's only asking for 6.0/6.5, it's a bit easier if he's asking for north of that say...7.0/7.5. Lets just hope he wants/takes 6.0/6.5.

I'd say things with Pouliot hinges.. more on Morrow than, Letang.

The other notes on the filling out part of the defense is, even though Bortuzzo is just starting out and he proves what we've been feeling he's a lock to be on this team while proving it this year, we'll not be using that .525 cap anymore since he'll be RFA and ready for a sizable raise at least doubling his current cap hit, but I feel that might be a bit more in the 1.2/1.4 range as a stand out this season. He would be totally worth it too.

They have plenty of time with Pouliot, Matta, Domoulin, Harrington with each having full ELC's to fill out and not rush them. In another 3/4 seasons who knows where they'll be at roster wise.

Problem results when they start adding more this draft and the next. When they're letting NHL'ers go for nothing for overstocking one need.

Strait>>>Lovejoy and if Lovejoy is worth a 5th in 2014 then Strait was worth a 5th in 2013. As small as it is, that was bad asset management. It's also one we shouldn't harp on for years.

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Old
02-07-2013, 10:37 AM
  #690
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Horton is also a free agent after the season..
For the size and skills he brings I like Horton's cap hit; he's someone we could conceivably re-sign and leave enough money to not have problems with Letang and Malkin, but there are a bunch of reasons why it will never happen:

1) Unless their season goes down the toilet in the next month, the Bruins will be buyers not sellers.

2) Bruins will not trade big assets to another EC playoff team, anymore than we would. The only kinds of players that might move between EC contenders are role players who are UFA and mediocre prospects that need a change in venue. No one that will make the other team better this year or next.

3) The very best players who have some chance of being moved off our roster, are not players that Boston would be even slightly interested in, if the price is Horton. Martin, Niskanen, Kunitz, Dupuis, Kennedy, even good prospects like Bennett ... there's zero chance those guys bring back anything but equivalent players. Horton isn't even the discussion with those guys unless we overpay with something insane like Martin, Kunitz, Bennett.

Bottom Line with EC Players:
Not trying to be harsh but people need to think about the other team and what their goals are before throwing names out there. There is effectively zero chance teams like Boston, NYR, Philly, Montreal will ever trade a big offensive asset to us. Anyone who has a decent team and a good shot at the playoffs... they're going to trade scraps with us and that's it. Role player / journeyman cap moves, AHL moves, etc.

Team like Toronto OTOH, clearly still building / re-building, clearly not a playoff team, and clearly could benefit even from some of our role players, not just prospects... now you have the potential for an EC trade involving a guy like Kuly. And a very outside shot at someone like Kessel (but only if the GM doesn't like what he sees out of him IMO which is something none of us would have a clue about).

WC Big Shots: Even Anaheim, who has been a trade partner in the past, is playing pretty well so while Perry's contract is up in the air and they might not be able to afford him, what are the odds they give up on a good record and playoff seed just to trade him to us (or anyone else)? Again the payment would have to be pretty huge. But at least there you have the benefit of knowing if we were to move a couple players like Bennett or Despres, there IS room for those guys to play and right away pretty much. And we're out of conference which is a big deal when moving a marquee player...



Use The Vitale Method of Common Sense Trade Analysis and all will be revealed in due time.


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02-07-2013, 10:41 AM
  #691
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I'd personally love to have kessel on this team, I think he's the perfect guy for Kunitz - Crosby.

As for Poni - Kulemin: I watch far too many leafs games (live in Toronto and married to a leafs fan) and I don't think they're similar players. But I understand your concerns. Don't think Kulemin is the missing piece, but do think he can help.
You know, I was just thinking about this: Some people say, in valuing Kulemin, that the KHL chemistry with Malkin doesn't mean ****. Well, what I realized-- and since you watch Kuli a lot you may have noticed the same thing-- Kuli, when defending Malkin in NHL games, seems to know exactly what Malkin is going to do with or without the puck pretty much every time. Wouldn't that instinctive understanding of Malkin's game translate to reading him if they were on the same team too?

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02-07-2013, 10:42 AM
  #692
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Maatta is less valuable because he can be a bonehead at times and isn't even close to having the dynamic game DP does.

Some like IHWR prefer Maatta, but it isn't rocket surgery to figure out Shero likes DP more based on where he drafted each. His opinion is obviously the one that matters.
His opinion matters or another GM's? If we're talking trade I assume it's another GM's, but maybe we're talking about different things. Also Maata is 18, I'm not sure how we're making definitive statements about these guys at this stage. The guy was rated definitively higher, that's all I know. When Despres dropped and we snagged him, Penguin fans weren't trying to justify why that happened.

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02-07-2013, 10:51 AM
  #693
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His opinion matters or another GM's? If we're talking trade I assume it's another GM's, but maybe we're talking about different things. Also Maata is 18, I'm not sure how we're making definitive statements about these guys at this stage. The guy was rated definitively higher, that's all I know. When Despres dropped and we snagged him, Penguin fans weren't trying to justify why that happened.
I've said it a number of times on here: I don't care about rankings, because org rankings are what matter. I also put more weight on watching a player and making judgements for myself. I see DP as a much better prospect and obviously the Pens valued him over Maatta. I'm not sure how anything in the last several months has changed that.

And Shero's opinion is what matters because it doesn't matter who another GM covets, it matters who Shero is willing to move. If he is only wiling to move, say Maatta, I doubt another GM will convince him to swap the two.

And when Despres was snagged, people were too busy crying about the pick to justify why he slipped.


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02-07-2013, 10:56 AM
  #694
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I am going to bet we'll go hard for Iginla. Calgary's season could be over very soon, hes a UFA. I think they'll move him for picks or prospects. The problem is going to be the amount of bidders lining up to deal. Philly will no doubt jump in to try and prevent Pittsburgh from making a deal. I could see Boston, Montreal, Washington, just about everyone in playoff contention looking to get Iginla. It will be a high price.

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02-07-2013, 11:02 AM
  #695
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I am going to bet we'll go hard for Iginla. Calgary's season could be over very soon, hes a UFA. I think they'll move him for picks or prospects. The problem is going to be the amount of bidders lining up to deal. Philly will no doubt jump in to try and prevent Pittsburgh from making a deal. I could see Boston, Montreal, Washington, just about everyone in playoff contention looking to get Iginla. It will be a high price.
Well maybe not the Caps

At any rate I find it difficult to talk about Iginla until there's any indication he's on the block. It's not fun to talk about, lord knows we'd rather pull trade proposals out of our *****, but there's the intangible of them simply not trading him because he's their franchise. Maybe he feels a little of the same way, and all things considered they just don't move him. It's a stupid move, and I said as much when Ottawa stunk and they wouldn't trade Alfredsson for assets that would've moved their franchise forward, but that's just the way it is for some teams.

I'm definitely not saying it won't happen, but I'm not counting on anything one way or the other. As you mentioned, after that you have to consider the price you're going to pay as well, which predictably almost no one on here wants to actually pay.

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02-07-2013, 11:16 AM
  #696
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I am going to bet we'll go hard for Iginla. Calgary's season could be over very soon, hes a UFA. I think they'll move him for picks or prospects. The problem is going to be the amount of bidders lining up to deal. Philly will no doubt jump in to try and prevent Pittsburgh from making a deal. I could see Boston, Montreal, Washington, just about everyone in playoff contention looking to get Iginla. It will be a high price.
Calgary is playing like dog **** right now... no doubt about it. You have to think about the fan base there though... Iginla is an icon there and the only reason some of those people go to watch the games IMO. I think if he goes on the block it's because the GM has made it clear he's in rebuild mode and looking for the highest bidders... not sure I want to get into a trade war with Philly or Boston or Washington. Let one of them hang themselves.

I would love to have Iggy on this team but would take a lot of manuevering to re-sign him, and compared to someone like Perry (which would also take manuevering) he doesn't have near as many good years left. So end analysis: if we're going to be shelling out 1st round picks, top prospects and a decent roster player like Kunitz maybe... why not get the guy who will potentially be a stud here for the next 6-8 years?

On the other hand... if we had one more player the quality of Kunitz or better (maybe Kulemin, maybe someone like Seto -- a guy who if he's not scoring can do other things for the top 6 and do them pretty well)... we might be good enough to win the Cup and we'd pay 1/3 as much.

A lot depends on what those other teams do also. If Philly or Boston goes out and gets a monster D or Forward... that makes it more likely Shero will go after a Perry or Iginla type player. I'm not sure I see Shero making the "first big move" this year but who knows. He's done it before.

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02-07-2013, 11:21 AM
  #697
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You know, I was just thinking about this: Some people say, in valuing Kulemin, that the KHL chemistry with Malkin doesn't mean ****. Well, what I realized-- and since you watch Kuli a lot you may have noticed the same thing-- Kuli, when defending Malkin in NHL games, seems to know exactly what Malkin is going to do with or without the puck pretty much every time. Wouldn't that instinctive understanding of Malkin's game translate to reading him if they were on the same team too?
You know, I've never watched them play from that angle? But it's hard to deny that Kulemin wasn't in Malkin's head the last time they played the Leafs.

Here's the thing, though: I *fully* expect Geno and Kulie to have that chemistry, I think they work well together, BUT it's NOT Geno who Kulemin has to have chemistry with, it's the duo of Neal and Geno, who have already developed their own movements and position together.

So while I'm not going to argue with anyone that Geno and Kulemin would instantly click, I'm also not going to pay the insane markup Leafs fans seem to think will be necessary because of it.

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02-07-2013, 11:25 AM
  #698
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Perry will be nearly impossible to resign IMO. Little doubt that he's going to hit the market and go to the highest bidder.

Iggy though, has already made his money, and will prioritize the right fit and situation. He could re-up at a much more reasonable price I'd think. And if he waives his NMC to leave Calgary at all, it will probably be to somewhere that he'd be open to finishing his career with. So IMO, Iginla is at least in the realm of the possible, while Perry is a pipe dream.

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02-07-2013, 11:29 AM
  #699
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I don't see Harrington making it for us. Near the bottom of the depth chart if you ask me. Only 19 so his value will be higher than in a few years.
Shrimper, I really think you need to evaluate your proposals a little more before throwing them out there. You started with Tangradi + 3rd for Kuly, then asked about Kennedy, and are now offering Harrington + 1st + Kennedy. You went from one extreme to the other.

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02-07-2013, 11:31 AM
  #700
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I am going to bet we'll go hard for Iginla. Calgary's season could be over very soon, hes a UFA. I think they'll move him for picks or prospects. The problem is going to be the amount of bidders lining up to deal. Philly will no doubt jump in to try and prevent Pittsburgh from making a deal. I could see Boston, Montreal, Washington, just about everyone in playoff contention looking to get Iginla. It will be a high price.
Iginla has a NTC

if the flyers continue to struggle, why the hell would he agree to go there?

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