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All Encompassing Winger Acquisition Thread | Part II: "The Winger Mystery Deepens"

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Old
02-07-2013, 01:54 PM
  #751
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
The problem I have is, can we really be sure of the right D-men to deal THIS year? Personally, I would at least like to see them all together in training camp next fall and see how each stacks up against one another. It's also important to see how each could conceivably slide into the lineup, and where they eventually fit. It could render one of the vets expendable, or it could give us a much clearer picture of who is truly expendable and who is quite untouchable.

Right now, with no training camp, with guys like Despres and Bortuzzo with the big club, guys like Dumoulin and Morrow with the AHL club, and guys like Pouliot, Harrington and Maatta in the CHL, it's really really difficult to assess and evaluate them. I know these guys get paid to make these decisions, but I would feel more comfortable waiting before dealing one of them.

Of course, I am speaking on the assumption a Corey Perry and/or Jarome Iginla won't be available to us. I'd deal a Pouliot no problem to get someone of that ilk. I just don't think it's likely.
Yea, I have no clue. It's really early in a lot of their developments. I think they should have a really good idea on Morrow and Dumoulin, at the very least.

The rest... well, that's why they get paid the big bucks, I suppose.

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02-07-2013, 01:55 PM
  #752
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They might be what they list him at but hes not that big.
So how big is he? 5'11 190? Stats tend to make guys bigger but he doesnt look overly small. And even if he isnt what he is listed at, does it matter? He has a very high hockey IQ with hands to go with it. Not all organizations have guys like BB

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02-07-2013, 01:56 PM
  #753
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If i thought bennett could fill a top 6 winger role and stay healthy i would agree with u. Hes one of the smallest players iv seen even if he has the talent to play in the NHL i dont think he will stay healthy he was hurt in college hes been hurt in the AHL hard for me to imagine anything will be different in NHL. Good def and # 1 centers are the hardest to get and wingers is the easiest to get.
Steve Sullivan is even smaller, and after he turned 30 endured a serious back injury that looked career threatening. Even HE made it back, and is a fairly productive player.

I certainly am not going to give up on Beau Bennett at his age because he SEEMS to be injury-prone now. Those things sometimes go away with time (and with greater fortune). It's not a good reason to trade him, imo.

Trade him if you don't believe in his talent, not because you feel he'll never get healthy. Athletes are quite remarkable. Josh Harding is currently backing up in Minnesota despite multiple sclerosis.

Talent should be the barometer.

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02-07-2013, 02:01 PM
  #754
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I've been lead to believe size doesn't matter, guys.

Bennett is fine. Only way I'm parting with him is if he's part of a package (heh heh) to bring in a young, long-term 1st-line winger for El Sid.

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02-07-2013, 02:03 PM
  #755
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The thing that you . . .and much worse Shero . . . do not seem to get is that only at HF are prospects, even first rounders, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> actual players. Prospects value after drafted are a lot like a new car you drive off the lot. If you trade them before they prove anything on the ice you will be very disappointed in the return. Shero's whole philosophy seems to be stockpiling defensemen to trade to fill needs. Sadly, there are several truisms that directly conflict:

1. This team is one of the top contenders for a cup.
2. Cup winning teams do not win with rookie defensemen in key roles
3. Defensemen, even good ones like Letang and Goligoski (well was until Dallas screwed him up), take a couple of painful years to develop during which time they make lots of bad mistakes.

I am not sure how you reconcile the concepts. You will have trouble winning a cup with rookie defensemen in key positions. And you will not get value until you develop those prospects. It is a fatal flaw. So far it has cost us little in real value, a couple of second round picks for nothing. But I worry as all this first rounders develop that we will have a garage sale on them.

As an aside, what is it with Dallas and defensemen that they not only can not develop them but completely **** up even ones you develop for them? Niskanen was one thing, but now Goligoski? I am doubting that there is coincidence here.
I am not sure what you're trying to say essentially. Shero and I seem to have polar opposite views on the value of picks and prospects vs established players. He continuously uses picks on low upside bottom 6 type players and often will spend picks on rentals, both things I despise.

This is a salary cap league and we have an extremely top heavy cap hit with Crosby and Malkin locked up along with a bunch of other high priced players who'll likely just get more expensive as they re-sign additional contracts in the future. Because of that it is essential that we get performance above a cap hit from players and that is most likely to occur from homegrown talent and even more likely to happen from 1st rounders. That is why the value of draft picks and prospects is so high, because it's a shot at getting that performance above cap hit ratio and the main source of disagreement with Shero that I have is he doesnt seem to subscribe to that and instead goes after bottom 6 types who's upside means that their performance only equals their cap hit.

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02-07-2013, 02:03 PM
  #756
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So how big is he? 5'11 190? Stats tend to make guys bigger but he doesnt look overly small. And even if he isnt what he is listed at, does it matter? He has a very high hockey IQ with hands to go with it. Not all organizations have guys like BB
None of us know what his exact height and weight is but if u watched the scrimmage he looked really small to me compared to the other players. Never said anything about his talent and skill but that stuff dont matter if u cant stay healthy.

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02-07-2013, 02:06 PM
  #757
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He is 6' and 195lbs. How is that small?
He was actually listed at 6'2 190lbs for the black and gold scrimmage, which seems to fit well with what he said in an interview with SI recently.

Quote:
You were drafted at 6-1, 173 pounds and the consensus at the time was that you needed to work on your strength. Hows that going?

BB I got up to 205 in the summer, but its a real difference playing at that weight, so I focused on getting down to 190-195 for the season.

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02-07-2013, 02:11 PM
  #758
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Steve Sullivan is even smaller, and after he turned 30 endured a serious back injury that looked career threatening. Even HE made it back, and is a fairly productive player.

I certainly am not going to give up on Beau Bennett at his age because he SEEMS to be injury-prone now. Those things sometimes go away with time (and with greater fortune). It's not a good reason to trade him, imo.

Trade him if you don't believe in his talent, not because you feel he'll never get healthy. Athletes are quite remarkable. Josh Harding is currently backing up in Minnesota despite multiple sclerosis.

Talent should be the barometer.

Nobody is talking about giving up on bennett but like i said id rather trade him then our top def prosp. From what iv seen i think sullivan and boychuk are comparable to what bennett might be. How many small players turn out to be really good players? I can think of st louis but thats about it.

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02-07-2013, 02:31 PM
  #759
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I am not sure what you're trying to say essentially. Shero and I seem to have polar opposite views on the value of picks and prospects vs established players. He continuously uses picks on low upside bottom 6 type players and often will spend picks on rentals, both things I despise.

This is a salary cap league and we have an extremely top heavy cap hit with Crosby and Malkin locked up along with a bunch of other high priced players who'll likely just get more expensive as they re-sign additional contracts in the future. Because of that it is essential that we get performance above a cap hit from players and that is most likely to occur from homegrown talent and even more likely to happen from 1st rounders. That is why the value of draft picks and prospects is so high, because it's a shot at getting that performance above cap hit ratio and the main source of disagreement with Shero that I have is he doesnt seem to subscribe to that and instead goes after bottom 6 types who's upside means that their performance only equals their cap hit.
What's the point in having Crosby AND Malkin, the Pens one true advantage, if you consistently refuse to exploit it?

Where you work in the home grown talent, by the way, is on the blue line (with some of those ELC players over the next 3-5 years).

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02-07-2013, 02:42 PM
  #760
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I disagree with you Gooch. I think it's fair to assume a team without foundation-type players needs all the picks they can get right? So a team like ours that already has those players always needs them just as much? We've already got those guys. We need to bolster this roster with the intention of gunning for the Cup. That's the goal first and foremost for a team like this. Trade what you need to be the best Cup contender you can be that the cap will allow year in, year out and sort out the bodies later. It's never realistic to be able to make more than a couple noteworthy trades a year anyways, so there's even a cap on what extent you can perform what I just described.

No one is saying deal your 1st every year, but they're not doing that regardless. We've had plenty of picks. Maybe you're more upset with the what Shero traded them for rather than the idea of trading them. I know a lot of people didn't like the Leopold move and I would assume you yourself still have a bug up your ass about the 3rd rounder we gave to talk to Hamhuis.

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02-07-2013, 02:47 PM
  #761
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I disagree with you Gooch. I think it's fair to assume a team without foundation-type players needs all the picks they can get right? So a team like ours that already has those players always needs them just as much? We've already got those guys. We need to bolster this roster with the intention of gunning for the Cup. That's the goal first and foremost for a team like this. Trade what you need to be the best Cup contender you can be that the cap will allow year in, year out and sort out the bodies later. It's never realistic to be able to make more than a couple noteworthy trades a year anyways, so there's even a cap on what extent you can perform what I just described.

No one is saying deal your 1st every year, but they're not doing that regardless. We've had plenty of picks. Maybe you're more upset with the what Shero traded them for rather than the idea of trading them. I know a lot of people didn't like the Leopold move and I would assume you yourself still have a bug up your ass about the 3rd rounder we gave to talk to Hamhuis.
Right now, Shero could deal for a legit 2nd wheel L1RW, a legit third wheel L2LW, and a decent vet defenseman rental and still half of his top trade chips left (I'm calling that the top six defensive prospects, Bennett, Blueger, and the 1st and the 2nd in this deep draft). That's more than he had to work with or left over in 2008.

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02-07-2013, 02:48 PM
  #762
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What's the point in having Crosby AND Malkin, the Pens one true advantage, if you consistently refuse to exploit it?

Where you work in the home grown talent, by the way, is on the blue line (with some of those ELC players over the next 3-5 years).
I absolutely agree that we're pissing away prime years of these two by surrounding them with turds. I just don't agree that a consistent 15 goal scorer is actually a significant upgrade and worth parting with a first round pick who isnt even with the organization for a full year.

BTW fun fact, Pascal Dupuis has averaged more goals per season the last 4 seasons than Kulemin has. I just don't see that being worth a 1st rounder or a top prospect. If we're talking about wasting Crosby and Malkin we can do better. If we're going to bother giving up actual pieces of value lets at least bundle them and get something significant.

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02-07-2013, 02:54 PM
  #763
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I disagree with you Gooch. I think it's fair to assume a team without foundation-type players needs all the picks they can get right? So a team like ours that already has those players always needs them just as much? We've already got those guys. We need to bolster this roster with the intention of gunning for the Cup. That's the goal first and foremost for a team like this. Trade what you need to be the best Cup contender you can be that the cap will allow year in, year out and sort out the bodies later. It's never realistic to be able to make more than a couple noteworthy trades a year anyways, so there's even a cap on what extent you can perform what I just described.

No one is saying deal your 1st every year, but they're not doing that regardless. We've had plenty of picks. Maybe you're more upset with the what Shero traded them for rather than the idea of trading them. I know a lot of people didn't like the Leopold move and I would assume you yourself still have a bug up your ass about the 3rd rounder we gave to talk to Hamhuis.
When you look at all the recent cup winners they all have something in common. There has been significant production coming out of guys with rookie or low cap hit second contracts. Basically integral parts of the teams were getting players to play above their cap hit. Right now Crosby and Malkin are signed at their value, Fleury is argued by many to play below his cap hit, what about Orpik, Martin, Kunitz? With the amount of money thrown around there is very little room for production above cap hit and all the more likely we'll have underperformers instead.

Having those draft picks and just as important to use them on players who have high upside is an essential way to stock the system with enough chances that one of them is bound to become good. All it takes is one though to make it all worth while because when you're getting a 7 mill dollar cap hit type performance out of a guy with a 750k salary it does wonders for propelling a team farther than they'd normally be able to get in the playoffs.

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02-07-2013, 02:55 PM
  #764
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I absolutely agree that we're pissing away prime years of these two by surrounding them with turds. I just don't agree that a consistent 15 goal scorer is actually a significant upgrade and worth parting with a first round pick who isnt even with the organization for a full year.

BTW fun fact, Pascal Dupuis has averaged more goals per season the last 4 seasons than Kulemin has. I just don't see that being worth a 1st rounder or a top prospect. If we're talking about wasting Crosby and Malkin we can do better. If we're going to bother giving up actual pieces of value lets at least bundle them and get something significant.
Ever watch-- I mean really watch-- Kulemin play? The Pens don't have a forward with a mix like him. Big (6'1, 230), fast for his size, wins board battles, plays good defense. But, more than that, if you ask yourself 'who would be the perfect complement for Geno and Neal', it's Kulemin.

I put it this way a few pages back: If you asked me to write a list of guys anywhere in the league, no matter the cost or availability, who I'd think would be absolutely perfect on LW with Geno and Neal, then Kulemin would be top five on the list.

Goals would be a bonus. How the way Kulemin plays would free up Geno and Neal to play more to their strengths is the reason I'm so high on him.

As for the 'chemistry' question, don't look at the KHL history. Go rewatch the Pens-Leafs game from last month. Kulemin knew exactly what Malkin was doing and was going to do without the puck. Yeah, he was defending him, but that speaks to his understanding of how Malkin plays. That points to the type of chemistry you don't catch on the stat sheet.

Honestly, while many may disagree, Kulemin would be a better fit with Malkin and Neal than Kunitz was, and I mean that in no way as a slight to Kunitz.

So, to make a long story short, with Malkin and Neal, in terms of the age, the cap hit, the playing style, everything, I don't think you can do better than Kulemin. And, I don't think that I'm alone in that sentiment.

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02-07-2013, 03:07 PM
  #765
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Ever watch-- I mean really watch-- Kulemin play? The Pens don't have a forward with a mix like him. Big (6'1, 230), fast for his size, wins board battles, plays good defense. But, more than that, if you ask yourself 'who would be the perfect complement for Geno and Neal', it's Kulemin.

I put it this way a few pages back: If you asked me to write a list of guys anywhere in the league, no matter the cost or availability, who I'd think would be absolutely perfect on LW with Geno and Neal, then Kulemin would be top five on the list.

Goals would be a bonus. How the way Kulemin plays would free up Geno and Neal to play more to their strengths is the reason I'm so high on him.

As for the 'chemistry' question, don't look at the KHL history. Go rewatch the Pens-Leafs game from last month. Kulemin knew exactly what Malkin was doing and was going to do without the puck. Yeah, he was defending him, but that speaks to his understanding of how Malkin plays. That points to the type of chemistry you don't catch on the stat sheet.

Honestly, while many may disagree, Kulemin would be a better fit with Malkin and Neal than Kunitz was, and I mean that in no way as a slight to Kunitz.

So, to make a long story short, with Malkin and Neal, in terms of the age, the cap hit, the playing style, everything, I don't think you can do better than Kulemin. And, I don't think that I'm alone in that sentiment.
I have taken more issue with the assumption of how much he'd cost vs whether or not I'd like him on the team. I would like him but not at the cost I have seen many propose. I just don't know how with a straight face a gm could say that a guy with less than pascal dupuis production can be worthy of a first rounder or a less than one year removed first round drafted prospect. I think he can be had for significantly less.

Also, he's just a season and a half away from UFA. He can probably be had for roughly what he's making right now and there wont be nearly as many suitors to compete against in signing him.

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02-07-2013, 03:09 PM
  #766
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When you look at all the recent cup winners they all have something in common. There has been significant production coming out of guys with rookie or low cap hit second contracts. Basically integral parts of the teams were getting players to play above their cap hit. Right now Crosby and Malkin are signed at their value, Fleury is argued by many to play below his cap hit, what about Orpik, Martin, Kunitz? With the amount of money thrown around there is very little room for production above cap hit and all the more likely we'll have underperformers instead.

Having those draft picks and just as important to use them on players who have high upside is an essential way to stock the system with enough chances that one of them is bound to become good. All it takes is one though to make it all worth while because when you're getting a 7 mill dollar cap hit type performance out of a guy with a 750k salary it does wonders for propelling a team farther than they'd normally be able to get in the playoffs.
I understand, and again I think your more upset with Shero than the philosophy. A team trying to win a Cup isn't going to keep all their picks, it's just not going to happen. I don't think they've gone hog wild trading picks since Hossa/Gill. It's been at a pretty normal rate IMO.

I would be more pissed about there not being a forward they've chosen who's surprised and made the jump quicker than expected. At the end of the day I think that's all we're talking about. Sure it could've been one of those picks we traded, but can you really play that kind of "what if?' game? I don't think you're going to win anything if you do.

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02-07-2013, 03:19 PM
  #767
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I understand, and again I think your more upset with Shero than the philosophy. A team trying to win a Cup isn't going to keep all their picks, it's just not going to happen. I don't think they've gone hog wild trading picks since Hossa/Gill. It's been at a pretty normal rate IMO.

I would be more pissed about there not being a forward they've chosen who's surprised and made the jump quicker than expected. At the end of the day I think that's all we're talking about. Sure it could've been one of those picks we traded, but can you really play that kind of "what if?' game? I don't think you're going to win anything if you do.
Well with Shero's drafting track record he probably wouldve drafted bottom 6 wingers or a dman anyways but that's a separate point. It's the philosophy that I disagree with and a salary cap is still a somewhat new thing for the NHL having it not even be 10 years old so I think a lot of the old line of thinking of how to build a team doesnt really apply as much anymore. All teams have a certain amount of money to hire players with and the the ones that end up winning are the ones who get a amount of performance that exceeds the amount they paid for it.

Theres a few different ways to obtain that. One of which is to draft and develop a player and put him in the lineup at a time that either maximizes years of control before next contract or you use them sparingly to keep the next contract low and then you use them while they're signed dirt cheap.

Another option is to sign reclamation projects in free agency who have come on hard times or something has happened that has drastically lowered their ability to command a high salary yet they still have a lot of talent. There have been countless wingers who fit this bill each offseason who are routinely ignored by Shero and this one always irks me because it's a cheap option and worth seeing if it works or not.

All of these involve buying low on a player in hopes that they'll turn hot under your watch. Not all the players will be good, that has to be assumed but the few that do will more than make up for the many that fail.

This is what I feel works and is the way to build a dynasty in the post cap era, this is not how Shero thinks. So I do believe my fundamental problem with him is a philosophical one as personally I don't know him so I can't dislike him as a person.

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02-07-2013, 03:37 PM
  #768
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I have taken more issue with the assumption of how much he'd cost vs whether or not I'd like him on the team. I would like him but not at the cost I have seen many propose. I just don't know how with a straight face a gm could say that a guy with less than pascal dupuis production can be worthy of a first rounder or a less than one year removed first round drafted prospect. I think he can be had for significantly less.

Also, he's just a season and a half away from UFA. He can probably be had for roughly what he's making right now and there wont be nearly as many suitors to compete against in signing him.
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I just don't agree that a consistent 15 goal scorer is actually a significant upgrade and worth parting with a first round pick who isnt even with the organization for a full year.
Couple things here. Kulemin is someone who brings more value than his stats alone indicate. So A, you can't look at his stats alone. And B you certainly can't compare those stats to Pascal Dupuis, someone who most will agree isn't really a 25g guy, regardless of whatever numbers he puts up beside Crosby. And if by some means you really truly believe Dupuis is a 25G guy... why is it that most fans want to see an upgrade on Crosby's wing?

As for what Kulemin will cost to acquire... he's gonna cost a bit - I'd be comfortable with Maatta + 2nd (I would NOT add Blueger to this). Yes it's steep, but not outrageously so. The same reasons we want him, are the same reasons Toronto doesn't want to move him. And thus he'll cost a tad. As long as we plan to extend him, then it's well worth the cost. The fact that he's a UFA after next season doesn't scare me at all... there's no reason to think that he'll go anywhere... we're playing him with his buddy, we're a contender and we'd be giving him quality top 6 minutes... As long as we're not low-balling the crap out of him (if he's putting up 45-55 pts, I'd put his value around 3.5m) there's no reason to think that he would bail.

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02-07-2013, 03:48 PM
  #769
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Couple things here. Kulemin is someone who brings more value than his stats alone indicate. So A, you can't look at his stats alone. And B you certainly can't compare those stats to Pascal Dupuis, someone who most will agree isn't really a 25g guy, regardless of whatever numbers he puts up beside Crosby. And if by some means you really truly believe Dupuis is a 25G guy... why is it that most fans want to see an upgrade on Crosby's wing?

As for what Kulemin will cost to acquire... he's gonna cost a bit - I'd be comfortable with Maatta + 2nd (I would NOT add Blueger to this). Yes it's steep, but not outrageously so. The same reasons we want him, are the same reasons Toronto doesn't want to move him. And thus he'll cost a tad. As long as we plan to extend him, then it's well worth the cost. The fact that he's a UFA after next season doesn't scare me at all... there's no reason to think that he'll go anywhere... we're playing him with his buddy, we're a contender and we'd be giving him quality top 6 minutes... As long as we're not low-balling the crap out of him (if he's putting up 45-55 pts, I'd put his value around 3.5m) there's no reason to think that he would bail.
Dupuis has avg 18 goals over the last 4 seasons, Kulemin has averaged 17. So I didnt say Dupuis was a 25 goal scorer and I didnt recognize Kulemin as a 30 goal scorer. BTW, the fact that he has scored 30 goals once and yet still averaged 17 goals is pretty abysmal. We get that players offer more than their stat total but when you're talking about giving a raw recently drafted 1st round prospect away you'd want to get a bit more in return than a guy 1.5 years away from being UFA and has mustered the average stats of a 3rd liner.

Again, how on earth does his real world production merit the kind of proposals I am seeing you guys make? He isnt a young spring chicken anymore, there arent a huge amount of years left of team control and if his productions continues from what he did last year he'd be considered overpaid. So I fail to see how Toronto can ask for the moon in a trade. Seems to me a 3rd rounder and rolling the dice with Tangradi would be fair value as all they'd be replacing is a 2nd/3rd line tweener and that package fits the bill.

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02-07-2013, 03:50 PM
  #770
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Couple things here. Kulemin is someone who brings more value than his stats alone indicate. So A, you can't look at his stats alone. And B you certainly can't compare those stats to Pascal Dupuis, someone who most will agree isn't really a 25g guy, regardless of whatever numbers he puts up beside Crosby. And if by some means you really truly believe Dupuis is a 25G guy... why is it that most fans want to see an upgrade on Crosby's wing?
He put up 25 without Crosby and without a single powerplay goal or any significant powerplay time.

He's not really a 25 goal guy, but we also have nothing that tells us that Kulemin's 30 goal season wasn't an aberration.

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02-07-2013, 03:54 PM
  #771
12IsGreaterThan47
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Originally Posted by Zen Arcade View Post
He put up 25 without Crosby and without a single powerplay goal or any significant powerplay time.

He's not really a 25 goal guy, but we also have nothing that tells us that Kulemin's 30 goal season wasn't an aberration.
The only people I see calling Kulemin a 30g scorer are, not surprisingly, Leafs fans. I don't think even KIRK thinks Kulemin is a 30g scorer.

And as I noted the other day (in the cesspool on the trade board): IF IF IF Kulemin became a 30g scorer on that line, I don't think that line actually scores 120-130 goals. I think those goals just come at the "expense" of Malkin/Geno. I think he's a legit 20g guy on that line.

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02-07-2013, 03:55 PM
  #772
SweetStache
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Originally Posted by cheesedanish87 View Post
None of us know what his exact height and weight is but if u watched the scrimmage he looked really small to me compared to the other players. Never said anything about his talent and skill but that stuff dont matter if u cant stay healthy.
At the NHL Scouting Combine he measured 6' 0.5'' and 173lbs. He is not small. Fragile? Maybe, but not small.

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02-07-2013, 04:02 PM
  #773
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I want Geno to dominate in the postseason. He needs a guy who can regularly win board battles, be solid in his own end, work give and go's and go to the net. That's Kulemin's game. Whatever we pay, every poster will be happy he's on our team once they have a chance to see what he does for us.

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02-07-2013, 05:56 PM
  #774
Ogrezilla
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I want Geno to dominate in the postseason. He needs a guy who can regularly win board battles, be solid in his own end, work give and go's and go to the net. That's Kulemin's game. Whatever we pay, every poster will be happy he's on our team once they have a chance to see what he does for us.
dude, production is the only possible value a player can provide. he's a bum.

and no, I'm not being serious.

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02-07-2013, 06:10 PM
  #775
Gooch
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
dude, production is the only possible value a player can provide. he's a bum.

and no, I'm not being serious.
If we were shopping Pascal Dupuis would we be able to get a 1st AND a B grade prospect for him? Would we even be able to get a 1st for him? I think we all know we'd get neither so what is it that Kulemin brings that a GM would see as being significantly more valuable than what Pascal Dupuis does because it isnt production.

On a side note, what would we even get if we did try to trade Pascal? A 3rd?

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