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The Luongo Thread - Somebody get Lamb Chop on the phone..

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Old
02-06-2013, 05:15 PM
  #226
y2kcanucks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
No need for a goaltender. Pulkkinen is a bust. Jurco is a meh prospect from what I've seen of him in the AHL. Nyquist is pretty much their only interesting prospect. (And Jarnkrok, but it would be a gamble.)

They don't have anywhere near the resources to acquire Edler.
This. Detroits drafting lately has been bad.

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02-06-2013, 05:17 PM
  #227
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This. Detroits drafting lately has been bad.
I wouldn't call it bad (I do think it's overrated) but mostly it's just a product of picking where they do (and where we do). It's not like we have the prospects to acquire someone like Edler.

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02-06-2013, 05:23 PM
  #228
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The one thing I'd disagree with is we do have a huge need for a true PP QB. Preferably a RHS. It doesn't necessarily have to come from the Luongo trade, but getting at least one current NHLer back gives us additional options. Doesn't have to be the primary piece of the deal, but I'd like to see at least a legit top 9 forward or top 6 dman come back.
I think that would be a "nice to have."

I wouldn't (and I'm not saying that you've said we should) sell the farm to get a player to help our powerplay, IMO the measure of success for this team is in the playoffs and I don't think a lethal powerplay is really all that important there.

Last year the the eventual cup winners had the 12th best post-season powerplay, in 2011 it was the 14th, 2010 it was the 5th, 2009 the 7th, 2008 the 9th.

I'd rather have a player who drives the team's even strength goal differential than their special teams.

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02-06-2013, 05:28 PM
  #229
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I think that would be a "nice to have."

I wouldn't (and I'm not saying that you've said we should) sell the farm to get a player to help our powerplay, IMO the measure of success for this team is in the playoffs and I don't think a lethal powerplay is really all that important there.

Last year the the eventual cup winners had the 12th best post-season powerplay, in 2011 it was the 14th, 2010 it was the 5th, 2009 the 7th, 2008 the 9th.

I'd rather have a player who drives the team's even strength goal differential than their special teams.
Is this 'power play' to success in the playoffs relationship the reason why the Sedins appear to be so ineffective during the post season?

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02-06-2013, 05:32 PM
  #230
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Is this 'power play' to success in the playoffs relationship the reason why the Sedins appear to be so ineffective during the post season?
I think you may be on to something here.

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02-06-2013, 05:35 PM
  #231
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Depending on the return, no one is untouchable. I'm all for trading Edler and playing Alberts in his place if the return is good enough.
Not ever going to happen. We have mutlitple home town discounts signed; what message does it send if you take a All Star player who just signed a major extension and trade him before his NTC kicks in? Gillis has not screwed over a single player, not even those who kinda deserved it (Roxy party types don;t you know).

There is no way he pulls a mickey mouse move like this.

Yes we probably need to move a goalie before next season starts. ... sadly.

It will likely be Luo, who has been nothing but class - but clearly he can make more money playing poker.

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02-06-2013, 05:36 PM
  #232
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Is this 'power play' to success in the playoffs relationship the reason why the Sedins appear to be so ineffective during the post season?
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Originally Posted by HAMMY5 View Post
I think you may be on to something here.
No...

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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
10-11: 1st (Daniel) and 5th (Henrik)
09-10: 1st (Henrik) and 5th (Daniel)
08-09: 7th (Daniel) and 11th (Henrik)

Last year was the first year they declined at ES (and even then only one of them) as Henrik finished 12th and Daniel 56th (missed 10 games).

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02-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #233
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Is this 'power play' to success in the playoffs relationship the reason why the Sedins appear to be so ineffective during the post season?
I don't really accept the premise.

I think an overall reduction in scoring means they produce less, and the fact that the front of the opposing goal becomes a war zone is mostly the cause of their lack of production.

Well that and the fact that they have matched up against some elite defenses (LAK, Boston, Nashville, Keith/Seabrook/Bolland) in many of their last few playoff rounds. And of course, having Daniel miss most of the last series and Henrik injured for the three prior to that didn't help.

All that being said I believe Henrik Sedin was the most productive player against the Kings of any of their opponents last spring.

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02-06-2013, 05:37 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by HAMMY5 View Post
I think you may be on to something here.
Do I denote sarcasm in your tone? I think the Sedins are special players who will perform better in the playoffs now they have a true power forward (and tough guy) playing along side them.

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02-06-2013, 05:49 PM
  #235
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Two questions:

What is Edler worth in a trade?

What is Ballard worth in a trade?

If the return for Edler is two contributing young players on cap friendly contracts and a 1st round pick (lets say Simmonds, Couturier and a 1st) and the return for Ballard is a 2nd round pick....I know for me, I'd think incredibly long and hard about moving Edler.
So you're telling me that Edler is a lot better than Ballard, who may or may not even be a top-4 defenseman, judging by the 2nd round value that you've given him. It's not that hard to think about.

It's funny that you decide to give these values to Edler and Ballard and then proceed to convince me that Ballard would be an acceptable replacement for Edler despite the fact that values are so lopsided.

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02-06-2013, 05:56 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I wouldn't call it bad (I do think it's overrated) but mostly it's just a product of picking where they do (and where we do). It's not like we have the prospects to acquire someone like Edler.
The Red Wings drafting - and their reputation as a 'good drafting team' - is definitely overrated, particularly since the lockout. Last time Detroit drafted an impact player was 2004 and Franzen was 25 when they picked him, more or less a finished product. You need to go back to '02 to find an 18-year-old they've picked who has turned into a top-6 forward.


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02-06-2013, 06:01 PM
  #237
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
Do I denote sarcasm in your tone? I think the Sedins are special players who will perform better in the playoffs now they have a true power forward (and tough guy) playing along side them.

Agree that is if Kassian can stick with them all year. Burrows makes the Sedins play better in my opinion hes just better at playing that cylce game knows were to be more then Kassian but at the same time Kassian plays better when with the Sedins

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02-06-2013, 06:40 PM
  #238
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I was just thinking that the Canucks are in a really good position here. They're off to their best start in 5 yrs without two of their top 6 forwards. Keslers prob back in 2 weeks, Schroeder and Kassian are playing really well for rookies (unexpectedly IMO). They've got some young players who will be making the team in the next 2 yrs (Connauton/Lack/Corrado/Jensen). Their top 4 d-men are signed for the forseeable future - and their key UFA's have resigned for below market value. They're also team who has been able to attract key UFA's over the last few yrs. What does Gillis think his team needs in a goalie trade knowing he has young guys in the pipeline who will be stepping in soon?

I'm with a lot of posters on this board, I'd prefer futures in a goalie trade. Futures in the form of players who are ready to play in the NHL now, or in the next yr. It allows Gillis to eventually negotiate his own contracts with these young players (a strength of the Canucks) vs. acquiring a player like Eberle who comes with a horrible contract that Gillis would never give them.

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02-06-2013, 06:51 PM
  #239
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
I was just thinking that the Canucks are in a really good position here. They're off to their best start in 5 yrs without two of their top 6 forwards. Keslers prob back in 2 weeks, Schroeder and Kassian are playing really well for rookies (unexpectedly IMO). They've got some young players who will be making the team in the next 2 yrs (Connauton/Lack/Corrado/Jensen). Their top 4 d-men are signed for the forseeable future - and their key UFA's have resigned for below market value. They're also team who has been able to attract key UFA's over the last few yrs. What does Gillis think his team needs in a goalie trade knowing he has young guys in the pipeline who will be stepping in soon?
I'm with a lot of posters on this board, I'd prefer futures in a goalie trade. Futures in the form of players who are ready to play in the NHL now, or in the next yr. It allows Gillis to eventually negotiate his own contracts with these young players (a strength of the Canucks) vs. acquiring a player like Eberle who comes with a horrible contract that Gillis would never give them.
Secondary Scoring.

Kesler may never be Beast mode again from surgerys .. and Booth may not live up to expectations either. Team needs more scoring to win in playoffs.

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02-06-2013, 06:59 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
If you deal Edler you are pretty much immediately faced with having to search for a replacement.

You know how much it costs to replace Edler? Look no further than the kind of bonkers return you are suggesting Philadelphia would offer (although I'm skeptical they'd offer that - if that was plausible then I'm sure they would have met Nashville's asking price for Weber last year).

On the flip side of the coin, the contribution the Canucks need from Keith Ballard could be replaced for probably $2-3m on the free agent market this summer.
I don't think you can find anyone as good as Ballard for that price. He's under-utilized here, doesn't mean he is no good.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tiranis View Post
I wouldn't call it bad (I do think it's overrated) but mostly it's just a product of picking where they do (and where we do). It's not like we have the prospects to acquire someone like Edler.
I like Jarkroc but yeah, definitely nothing you move Edler for.
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So you're telling me that Edler is a lot better than Ballard, who may or may not even be a top-4 defenseman, judging by the 2nd round value that you've given him. It's not that hard to think about.

It's funny that you decide to give these values to Edler and Ballard and then proceed to convince me that Ballard would be an acceptable replacement for Edler despite the fact that values are so lopsided.
That's the values.

The question is, are the Canucks better with a lesser defensman, but with two additional stud forwards?

I'd say yes, the teams that have been winning cups have decent d's, but DEEP forward groups.

I'm not pushing for the move at all, just suggesting it might be something worth exploring.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
I was just thinking that the Canucks are in a really good position here. They're off to their best start in 5 yrs without two of their top 6 forwards. Keslers prob back in 2 weeks, Schroeder and Kassian are playing really well for rookies (unexpectedly IMO). They've got some young players who will be making the team in the next 2 yrs (Connauton/Lack/Corrado/Jensen). Their top 4 d-men are signed for the forseeable future - and their key UFA's have resigned for below market value. They're also team who has been able to attract key UFA's over the last few yrs. What does Gillis think his team needs in a goalie trade knowing he has young guys in the pipeline who will be stepping in soon?

I'm with a lot of posters on this board, I'd prefer futures in a goalie trade. Futures in the form of players who are ready to play in the NHL now, or in the next yr. It allows Gillis to eventually negotiate his own contracts with these young players (a strength of the Canucks) vs. acquiring a player like Eberle who comes with a horrible contract that Gillis would never give them.
So if the move is for futures, there is ZERO incentive to make it during the season.

It's a draft day move.

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02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
  #241
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Secondary Scoring.

Kesler may never be Beast mode again from surgerys .. and Booth may not live up to expectations either. Team needs more scoring to win in playoffs.
This may and well be true. But before trading either goalie for scoring, I'd much rather just see how Kes and Booth do, if the aren't as good as thought, I agree with trying to get secondary scoring.

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02-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #242
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Secondary Scoring.

Kesler may never be Beast mode again from surgerys .. and Booth may not live up to expectations either. Team needs more scoring to win in playoffs.
I think it will depend on how guys like Raymond and Higgins develop this yr. Does Raymond show up for a few games like last yr then disappear? Does Higgins find his form this yr? Gillis is probably best served doing what he's doing - waiting it out to evaluate his team after a larger sample size. Maybe he wants a centre and winger in a goalie trade?

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So if the move is for futures, there is ZERO incentive to make it during the season. It's a draft day move.
Ya, maybe. I'm not sure when the right 'time' is to make a trade. But as I said above, he's best served waiting it out till he can get a better read on how his players perform this yr.

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02-06-2013, 07:15 PM
  #243
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I think it went over a few heads though.
Oh, it definitely did.
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Originally Posted by dave babych returns View Post
I think that would be a "nice to have."

I wouldn't (and I'm not saying that you've said we should) sell the farm to get a player to help our powerplay, IMO the measure of success for this team is in the playoffs and I don't think a lethal powerplay is really all that important there.

Last year the the eventual cup winners had the 12th best post-season powerplay, in 2011 it was the 14th, 2010 it was the 5th, 2009 the 7th, 2008 the 9th.

I'd rather have a player who drives the team's even strength goal differential than their special teams.
I have to agree with this, as much as I would like Streit here. I guess it depends how he stacks up at 5-on-5 against Ballard. If they were even, then having that PPQB option can only help.

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02-06-2013, 07:19 PM
  #244
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This may and well be true. But before trading either goalie for scoring, I'd much rather just see how Kes and Booth do, if the aren't as good as thought, I agree with trying to get secondary scoring.
Yea fair enough wait and see only thing is longer we wait to move Luongo we run the risk of other goalies being on the market at trade deadline.. witch would hurt geting maximum value for Luongo.

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02-06-2013, 07:21 PM
  #245
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That's the values.

The question is, are the Canucks better with a lesser defensman, but with two additional stud forwards?

I'd say yes, the teams that have been winning cups have decent d's, but DEEP forward groups.

I'm not pushing for the move at all, just suggesting it might be something worth exploring.
And the values are an extension of how good you think both players are. You think Edler is a lot better than Ballard.

If the difference in on-ice play between Ballard and Edler is "two additional stud forwards", I really don't want any part of Ballard, or I really don't want to give up Edler. Either way, Ballard should be the one going.

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02-06-2013, 07:22 PM
  #246
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I'm honestly hoping the player this team acquires can contribute to their primary scoring. As much as I doubt it'll happen, I'd like to see a speedy, skilled, individual superstar join the team as a result of this trade. If we have to throw in a first round pick, so be it. This is, in my opinion, the team's greatest chance to bring in an impact player who can change a game with a single shot or a single rush. A few years ago, I was clamoring for the team to go after Kovalchuk when he was struggling and his value was at an all-time low. It's not realistic, but the fan in me wants desperately to see an exciting player join this team.

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02-06-2013, 07:24 PM
  #247
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Yea fair enough wait and see only thing is longer we wait to move Luongo we run the risk of other goalies being on the market at trade deadline.. witch would hurt geting maximum value for Luongo.
True, but let's be honest here none of those hypothetical goalies are anywhere near Luongo's caliber.

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02-06-2013, 07:25 PM
  #248
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So, apparently Daren Dregger said Lombardi wants "a high draft pick and a good young player" for Bernier. SAY WHAT?? This is a BACK UP goalie who's coming off a .908 SV% behind a defense first team that won the Cup. Caman.

And people are bit#$%ing about Gillis wanting a draft pick, and good young player and roster player for Luongo? Seriously, I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone.

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02-06-2013, 07:29 PM
  #249
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Yea fair enough wait and see only thing is longer we wait to move Luongo we run the risk of other goalies being on the market at trade deadline.. witch would hurt geting maximum value for Luongo.
Who exactly would these goalies be?

(I'm talking about goalies that are comparable to Luongo - not journeymen goalies).

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02-06-2013, 07:30 PM
  #250
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Originally Posted by SunshineRays View Post
So, apparently Daren Dregger said Lombardi wants "a high draft pick and a good young player" for Bernier. SAY WHAT?? This is a BACK UP goalie who's coming off a .908 SV% behind a defense first team that won the Cup. Caman.

And people are bit#$%ing about Gillis wanting a draft pick, and good young player and roster player for Luongo? Seriously, I feel like I'm living in the twilight zone.
Just trade Cory for 2 first round picks.

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