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Old
02-13-2013, 01:58 PM
  #101
JustGivingEr
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I did not see that game because I don't one flying **** about either team. I cannot comment on that game.

Doesn't change the fact that nobody is scared these goons that can't keep up will use their fists to balance the scales, nobody thinks like that and teams exploit goons BY SKATING AROUND THEM. Sure maybe Orr and McLaren had a half-decent game here and there, doesn't change the fact that 99% of the time they are plugs that allow goals by the boatload and their imagined "intimidation" is a relic of league that is long gone, no longer relevant.
Well, I'm sure that each team that employs a tough guy will whole heartedly agree that they have no place in the league. There's a reason that some teams still employ these guys even if we can't see it when we watch on TV or are at the game.

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02-13-2013, 01:59 PM
  #102
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I think Winnipeg fans watch tsn too much,and are against having a tought guy.I think your organization are in the wrong mind set,and in the NHL and AHL levels your play is lacking,send Peluso here ,i pray he clears,are seasons done and we got Syrcuse coming.

I dont get the arguments against tought 4th line.Leafs are on fire with it,and if you look at championship teams most have been deep in toughness since 2006.People say no we cant have that cause roster spot,u have them for games against bigger teams that play that style,then in playoffs sit them,like most teams.I hate Jets organizations stance on this,and watching the farm is painful

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02-13-2013, 02:02 PM
  #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I think there is a disconnect with your average hockey fan who played hockey as a kid with a face shield on and then stopped playing once high school stopped to the few that maybe went on to play junior where you pulled off the face shield and fighting wasn't an automatic ejection and the refs tried to prevent it from happening at all costs.

I don't know if people can understand the feeling knowing that just maybe you might have to actually be held accountable for your actions on the ice.

That is a big shocker to a lot of guys who join the junior ranks for the first time. I can remember seeing 15/16 year olds at Junior camp for the first running around throwing hits and beaking off only for some older guy to grab them and pound them. It is an eye opening experience for that to happen to you. Some guys change there game and stop hitting and beaking. Some guys quit. Some guys stand up for themselves.

For me to constantly read here and elsewhere that "no one is intimidated by a tough guy" is well frankly laughable. Every player who has ever played when fighting could very well happen knows who the "tough guys" are. They know when they are on the ice and they adjust accordingly. They also know who they are on their team as well.

It changes you. It forces you to change the way you play. That is the way it is.
I played Jr. A for 3 years in the late 70's/early 80's. In my opinion, you are absolutely correct in your assesment. Very good post.

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02-13-2013, 02:15 PM
  #104
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I feel for Peluso for the fact that he obviously wanted to make an impact in his first game, got a little over zealous, and took the penalty when Rinaldo didn't drop the gloves.

But truth be told, I loved the hit he made on Rinaldo where he got his second penalty. I don't think it was a penalty at all. It's just one of those plays where the ref sees Rinaldo run Wright, and then is basically watching Rinaldo for the next 5 or 10 seconds to call a penalty on anyone who hits him.

If Peluso just put the "I need to get a fight in so the coaches and mgmt see what I can do" mentality out of his head, and just went out and skated his butt off and hit everything in a different jersey color like he hit Rinaldo, I think it would be the best thing for him. And then if he needed to pummel someone for a reason (like Stuart's fight), he could pummel someone and most people wouldn't have a problem with it.

It's crazy that we have this many pages on this guy though.

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02-13-2013, 02:19 PM
  #105
Joe Hallenback
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I played junior hockey for 5 years. Played a bit beyond that as well. Probably more recently than you. There was plenty of goons out there, did not ever change how I played or anybody that I played with. We LAUGHED at goons. Because they couldn't play hockey. We took advantage of them, and if those monkeys tried to come at us, we skated away because what was the point. Besides, "tough guys" and "goons" tend to follow their code, so they rarely jump guys anyways. If they do you let them take a penalty. This idea that a goon will jump you if you do anything is outdated and plain wrong.

Goons and tough guys are DONE. Gone. Nobody needs them. You don't see cheap shot artists taking less cheap shots since there is a "goon" out there. Hell look at Rinaldo taking out our guy right between the numbers with Peluso on the ice. You think he gave one **** about even being hit there? No, he laughed about how PHI got a PP. You don't see player playing scared of the big goon, was Giroux less effective since we had Peluso lumbering around the ice trying to play hockey? No not at all.

Those are things of the past. A player that flys around hitting, grinding, scoring, chirping, fighting, battling, that was the guy you feared. That was the guy you didn't want to play against since he could beat you every which way. Tough guy, PLUH-LEASE that was the guy you moved one step and watched the meathead go by and be a dumbass. Nobody plays different or scared because meatheads like Orr or McLaren or Westgarth are on the ice. That is clinging to a past that is THANKFULLY long long gone.

Grind, your exactly right. This is not junior hockey for 80s and 90's. It is a different era, with different standards, and different ways of playing. Goons are dying and will be dead in the next few years for a reason, most have realized this, there's only a couple STUPID teams left hanging on.

Tough physical teams are tough and physical throughout, and don't employ goons to do that for them.

Say what you want I guess but it is getting tiresome already. We know what you think and a lot of us think differently. Being a Global mod doesn't give you the right to spew it constantly in every single thread you post in.

You don't like goons fine. I get. We all get it. In your opinion they don't do anything and of course when you played you laughed in there face

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02-13-2013, 02:24 PM
  #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
Say what you want I guess but it is getting tiresome already. We know what you think and a lot of us think differently. Being a Global mod doesn't give you the right to spew it constantly in every single thread you post in.

You don't like goons fine. I get. We all get it. In your opinion they don't do anything and of course when you played you laughed in there face
I agree, and those goons probably played in a pro level of some sort making some money, so who would be laughing then?

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02-13-2013, 02:28 PM
  #107
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Hallenback View Post
I think there is a disconnect with your average hockey fan who played hockey as a kid with a face shield on and then stopped playing once high school stopped to the few that maybe went on to play junior where you pulled off the face shield and fighting wasn't an automatic ejection and the refs tried to prevent it from happening at all costs.

I don't know if people can understand the feeling knowing that just maybe you might have to actually be held accountable for your actions on the ice.

That is a big shocker to a lot of guys who join the junior ranks for the first time. I can remember seeing 15/16 year olds at Junior camp for the first running around throwing hits and beaking off only for some older guy to grab them and pound them. It is an eye opening experience for that to happen to you. Some guys change there game and stop hitting and beaking. Some guys quit. Some guys stand up for themselves.

For me to constantly read here and elsewhere that "no one is intimidated by a tough guy" is well frankly laughable. Every player who has ever played when fighting could very well happen knows who the "tough guys" are. They know when they are on the ice and they adjust accordingly. They also know who they are on their team as well.

It changes you. It forces you to change the way you play. That is the way it is.
Great, and I'm sure goons (are we really calling older kids goons? Just because they are bigger and stronger than the younger kids?) have a place in junior hockey then. But how many players in the NHL gets scared by the fact that a guy may grab them and give their team a huge PP?

IMO, if a player changes the way he plays in the NHL, it's because of risk of injury (i.e. concussions, not getting beat up by the big mean guy), or because it's not working. If, for example, Kane changed the way he played (hitting everything that moved) because he got beat up, I'd say that he didn't belong in the NHL in the first place.

The discussion isn't about guys who can fight, we have several of those guys, it's about players who play 5 minutes each game and is therefore making it impossible to play four lines.

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Old
02-13-2013, 02:30 PM
  #108
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Originally Posted by trouty View Post
I think Winnipeg fans watch tsn too much,and are against having a tought guy.I think your organization are in the wrong mind set,and in the NHL and AHL levels your play is lacking,send Peluso here ,i pray he clears,are seasons done and we got Syrcuse coming.

I dont get the arguments against tought 4th line.Leafs are on fire with it,and if you look at championship teams most have been deep in toughness since 2006.People say no we cant have that cause roster spot,u have them for games against bigger teams that play that style,then in playoffs sit them,like most teams.I hate Jets organizations stance on this,and watching the farm is painful
He won't clear waivers. The Blues would re-claim him.

The recent championship teams have had toughness throughout their lineup. Few have relied on a devoted goon that wasn't capable of playing 8+ minutes a night. Those that had one also had superstar level talent that the Jets simply don't have.

The Bruins don't play the game the way they do because Thornton is on the 4th line. They do it because their franchise defenceman is also one of the most intimidating players in the league and they have a 30 goal first line winger that has the potential to one punch any guy in the league.

If it turns out Peluso is capable of a regular shift he has a chance to add something to the team, otherwise he's just a lump.

Personally, I think he's capable of it but we'll have to see.

As far as the Leafs go. Come on. It won't last. They're the Leafs. The collapse is imminent. They can't maintain what is essentially a playoff level of emotional intensity for 30 more games.

If you're really that bent out of shape about the toughness on the Caps start a petition for them to sign Mitch Fritz and see how far that gets them.


Last edited by almostawake: 02-13-2013 at 02:31 PM. Reason: hilarious typo
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02-13-2013, 02:44 PM
  #109
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I think there are a lot of excellent points being brought to the table here on both sides whether it be Holdens view or Joe Hallenback, I think both bring solid arguments to the table. And honestly, who's to say what's right and wrong? I think it all depends how each team is made up, what they need and don't need and of course personal preference. One team may have a coach who believes in it, another may not. It seems to be working for Toronto right now, and props to Colton Orr because truth be told if you read the recent story of him, he's done some things to hopefully become more of a player in the Shawn Thornton mold by the sounds of it. We'll see how that goes for him.

Holden, as much as you and I have clashed over Peluso, I really do think we're on the same page here. It still makes me wonder why you viewed Peluso as a goon without seeing him in a Jets uniform, I personally think you just viewed him as a goon more than anything and therefore wrote him off, so I am not sure we'll come to an agreement there. But that is fine. At the end of the day, you may very well be 100% right - he may be nothing more than a goon. Myself, I was more so than less open and hoping that Peluso could be a player for us, fill a role - Prust, Rinaldo, Asham, Neil, Lapierre, etc. I love those guys because like you mention, they can skate and they can play. I am an optimist so I was and still am very open to seeing if Peluso can be a worthy player in that role for us. I just don't like to see people see something they personally don't like, then stamp that player with the label and in the blink of an eye write him off as a no nothing, piece of garbage. That is the vibe I got from you in regards to Peluso, and that is where my disagreements stem from. Mostly because by all indications and what we were told from people who watched him regularly, he can play and stands a chance at being a player in the NHL --- again, that is all I was ever open and optimistic for. Can he at the NHL level? that is what we need to find out, but to write him off with the appeared hatred and disgust you sounded off with towards him is where our disagreement stems from.

However, your view of team needs and mine to indeed meet eye to eye. Perhaps back in the 70's and 80's there was a spot for a "goon", but today, the era and dynamics of the game and NHL have indeed changed, in my opinion. I agree wholeheartedly on your assessment of what makes a successful team, though I also believe it's not the only way. With that being said, I am and always have been a firm believer that you gotta roll all 4 lines, and if a player prevents that then in this day and age he isn't much help, in the grand scheme of things. I want players who can play those minutes and roles in October and February, but they also need to be able to play those roles come the time it really matters, and that is the playoffs come April and June. If they cannot contribute as part of the team at the most critical of times, it's hard to hold a roster spot up for them.

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02-13-2013, 02:51 PM
  #110
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Originally Posted by JustGivingEr View Post
Did you see any of the Leafs/Habs game from the weekend? Orr and McLaren were having their way with Plekanec and Gionta and doing whatever they wanted to at the end of the game. I'm sure those two guys cared they were there.



Those goons look pretty effective here.
For the life of me I cannot see how this is even remotely effective play.

His team was up 6-0 and he took a stupid run at a skill player. Nothing was gained by that in that game and there's a pretty high probability that the other team gained an edge in the next game due to it.

Bully the other team when the game is tied. Intimidate them in a close game, sure. But run at guys when you've already won the game? How do you gain anything by this.

Personally, all I really care about is the success of my team and I don't mind if they use violence and intimidation to get there. But what Orr and McLaren did there had zero short term benefit and the potential to significantly lower their chances of winning in the next meeting between the two teams.

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02-13-2013, 03:13 PM
  #111
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I'm not going to really jump into what roles are dead discussion except to say I think nuclear deterrents are the biggest waste of a roster spot there is.

Having said that, I thought Peluso skated quite well for a big man, and his teammates really seem to like him. I think he deserves, and will get, another opportunity to prove himself.

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02-13-2013, 03:26 PM
  #112
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
He won't clear waivers. The Blues would re-claim him.

The recent championship teams have had toughness throughout their lineup. Few have relied on a devoted goon that wasn't capable of playing 8+ minutes a night. Those that had one also had superstar level talent that the Jets simply don't have.

The Bruins don't play the game the way they do because Thornton is on the 4th line. They do it because their franchise defenceman is also one of the most intimidating players in the league and they have a 30 goal first line winger that has the potential to one punch any guy in the league.

If it turns out Peluso is capable of a regular shift he has a chance to add something to the team, otherwise he's just a lump.

Personally, I think he's capable of it but we'll have to see.


As far as the Leafs go. Come on. It won't last. They're the Leafs. The collapse is imminent. They can't maintain what is essentially a playoff level of emotional intensity for 30 more games.

If you're really that bent out of shape about the toughness on the Caps start a petition for them to sign Mitch Fritz and see how far that gets them.

I agree with both bolded points (actually all of it, but specifically these ones). Funny that so many are willing to write off Peluso as a Jet, but if we put him on waivers the Blues would likely reclaim him. I think he's worth a look based on the people who know him and have seen him play.

Not much to lose by giving him a chance.

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02-13-2013, 03:50 PM
  #113
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Originally Posted by jimmycrackcorn View Post
I played Jr. A for 3 years in the late 70's/early 80's. In my opinion, you are absolutely correct in your assesment. Very good post.
I don't mean this as an affront in any way, but playing Juniors for 3 years 35-40 years ago, as a teenager, is not quite the same as playing at the NHL level in 2013 as a 20-35 year old playing for the cup, millions, and averages 6'1 and 205lbs.

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02-13-2013, 03:53 PM
  #114
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
I'm not the one giving the hero talk, that would be Joe Hallenback who is talking down to everybody who did not play junior hockey, saying they can never truly understand the game. I don't care how much hockey a person has played, some of the best hockey minds ever never played.

And how many goons did even the much lauded Ducks win the Stanley Cup with? Parros, who played all of 32 games all season then 5 in playoffs. That's what I thought.

I am NOT against fighting. I am a person who wants all four lines to be able to hit, skate, shoot, score, defend, pester, and defend themselves. That's how teams like Anaheim, Boston and Los Angeles won Stanley Cups. This is not fighting, this is GOONS. They do nothing. Anti-goons does not equal Red Wing hockey

I noticed them being useless. Nobody gave one flying **** that they were on the ice. Guys that cannot skate, cannot keep up to hit anybody, cannot play hockey but "intimidate" with their fists don't scare or indimidate anybody. People that can do all of them can. But if I see a Peluso, or Orr, or Westgarth lumbering down on me I take on step to the side watch them blow by harmlessly and keep going. Nobody cares that they are there. If I see Ovechkin or Backes or whatnot bearing down on me, then I am scared.
The Ducks also had Travis Moen and Brad May, who I believed played virtually all the games. Neither of these guys, or even Shawn Thornton have the talent of someone like, say, Spencer Machacek, but they've had long, successful careers on championship teams. There's a reason for that.

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02-13-2013, 04:04 PM
  #115
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The Ducks also had Travis Moen and Brad May, who I believed played virtually all the games. Neither of these guys, or even Shawn Thornton have the talent of someone like, say, Spencer Machacek, but they've had long, successful careers on championship teams. There's a reason for that.
Travis Moen averaged over 17 minutes a game during the Ducks cup run and was one of their goto PKers. He's really not a goon at all. Brad May and Shawn Thornton are probably good examples of the new hybrid type enforcers. Guys capable of 8-10 decent minutes a night.

Not to put words in Holden's mouth, but I don't think he's talking about these kind of guys. He's talking about 3-5 minute a night guys like Parros, Orr, etc.

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02-13-2013, 04:25 PM
  #116
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Travis Moen averaged over 17 minutes a game during the Ducks cup run and was one of their goto PKers. He's really not a goon at all. Brad May and Shawn Thornton are probably good examples of the new hybrid type enforcers. Guys capable of 8-10 decent minutes a night.

Not to put words in Holden's mouth, but I don't think he's talking about these kind of guys. He's talking about 3-5 minute a night guys like Parros, Orr, etc.
The problem is you're not going to get a Thornton, or even Moen a lot of the time without developing him from someone like Peluso. There's no reason Orr couldn't have had a career like Shawn Thornton. Maybe he will yet the way things are going now playing for Carlyle.

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02-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #117
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So I guess we will be seeing him soon.Does not bring anything we don't already have here.

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02-13-2013, 04:29 PM
  #118
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Totally true. I dont mind our bottom players at all and I am glad Peluso gives us something to talk about

IMO I could care less who they play on our bottom line as they have not been producing thus this season (besides possibly in garrets advanced stats) so I dont see what the big deal is with throwing someone else in the mix to create some compitition within the lineup.
Well since you asked...
Quick summary:
Wright - great defensively, but can't seem to ever get points (ever)... ok .5 ppg isn't that bad in the AHL, but still... he's a perfect 4th liner with the fact you can dump him lots in the d-zone so your scorers can get more o-zone time, but lack of offensive ability makes him unable to effectively move any higher (with current abilities, he's young so some could develop)
Slater - scores at a pretty decent rate relative to his ice-time and given his wingers the last few seasons it's highly impressive, not as good defensively as Wright but not far off... perfect 4th line C in that he can be used as a FO specialist
Thorburn - .....? he's worse than Slater defensively and gets worse results even though he doesn't have the FO specialist pull down affect excuse... he brings toughness yes, but I rather a Prust than a Thor; Prust actually can reduce bad things happening with effective(relatively speaking) defensive abilities
Peluso - if anyone (including me) tries to pull something out of 2 minutes of advance stats and say it's 100% truth ban them from the board forever hahaha

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02-13-2013, 04:52 PM
  #119
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The problem is you're not going to get a Thornton, or even Moen a lot of the time without developing him from someone like Peluso. There's no reason Orr couldn't have had a career like Shawn Thornton. Maybe he will yet the way things are going now playing for Carlyle.
I agree that these players need to be developed. FWIW I'm on the record several times saying I think Peluso has the potential to develop into such a player.

But I'm pretty certain the issue that Holden is getting at has nothing to do with guys like Thornton, Moen, etc. Since the start of Moen's career he was an effective gritty player rather than a one dimensional fighter. Moen is a very reliable PKer and has basically always been. Thornton took a longer path but early in his career, but for a guy that can hold is own against any fighter in the league is a good skater and actually has decent hands. His board play in particular is far better than any one dimensional goon.

As far as Orr goes, no, he will never be in this category. Never. Ever. Since is started playing at a level that allowed fighting Orr's primary concern has always been fighting. He has simply never developed his skating and puck skill to a point where he can be an effective hockey player. Orr, for example, could never be used on the PK, ever. Everything he has done to develop himself as a professional player has focused on surviving fights against the behemoths he has to fight on a weekly basis.

For the one dimensional goons a lot of it really just comes down to the fact that they they are so big. If you look at guys around the league that are Orr's size the ones that are actually effective hockey players have devoted an insane amount of time to developing their skating. And for every guy with 6'4" 230lbs frame that makes it to the NHL there's another 10 that washed out in the minors because they simply couldn't get their skating to that level. Thornton and Moen, for example, are only (a generous) 6'2" and are probably playing at around 215lbs for most of the season. Orr is a fairly legit 6'3" but he's up around 240lbs at any point in the season.

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02-13-2013, 05:10 PM
  #120
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I certainly like the idea of giving Peluso a legit chance to prove himself as a worthy 4th line winger. I think he has the skating & hand skills ( ; , however does he have the smarts to be effective in his own zone for the brief mins he is on the ice? Guys like Moen, Thornton, Thorburn etc have that ability.

Also, let's not forget that most other teams that carry a punisher, also have more depth in their forward ranks to be able to do it.

edit: one exception would be Toronto...but then again that's Carlyle's style.

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02-13-2013, 05:19 PM
  #121
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I don't mean this as an affront in any way, but playing Juniors for 3 years 35-40 years ago, as a teenager, is not quite the same as playing at the NHL level in 2013 as a 20-35 year old playing for the cup, millions, and averages 6'1 and 205lbs.
[mod] how about reading my comment in the context of the post I replied to


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02-13-2013, 06:26 PM
  #122
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Originally Posted by Holden Caulfield View Post
:

Tough physical teams are tough and physical throughout, and don't employ goons to do that for them.
Whats missing from this argument is an understanding of the hockey player psyche. Teams can be tough without a goon, but they are generally not. Who are the tough teams: Philly, Boston, Chicago, Anaheim more. ALll carry so-called 'goons'. Look at the reaction of the players on the bench during and after a fight. It is a motivator. They are fired up.
Sure it can be overdone, but ignore the other side at your peril.

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02-13-2013, 06:52 PM
  #123
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Originally Posted by almostawake View Post
He won't clear waivers. The Blues would re-claim him.

The recent championship teams have had toughness throughout their lineup. Few have relied on a devoted goon that wasn't capable of playing 8+ minutes a night. Those that had one also had superstar level talent that the Jets simply don't have.

The Bruins don't play the game the way they do because Thornton is on the 4th line. They do it because their franchise defenceman is also one of the most intimidating players in the league and they have a 30 goal first line winger that has the potential to one punch any guy in the league.

If it turns out Peluso is capable of a regular shift he has a chance to add something to the team, otherwise he's just a lump.

Personally, I think he's capable of it but we'll have to see.

As far as the Leafs go. Come on. It won't last. They're the Leafs. The collapse is imminent. They can't maintain what is essentially a playoff level of emotional intensity for 30 more games.

If you're really that bent out of shape about the toughness on the Caps start a petition for them to sign Mitch Fritz and see how far that gets them.

The Caps are on their was to a 15th place finish in the east,so i guess adding Mitch Fritz could not make them any worse,maybe more entertaining and less of a push over

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02-13-2013, 06:55 PM
  #124
trouty
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Point is it dont hurt to imploy one,you dont need to play him every game,and those teams that won championships the 2007 Ducks (prob toughest team) 2011 Bruins,2010 Hawks etc list goes on had more intimidating players then Chris Thorburn,in all honesty if someone wants to go out and destroy Kane is Thorburn gonna scare them off.Yes NHL fans we know the League will get them and suspend them.Jets far from put fear in any team and lack to toughness,not goon period

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02-14-2013, 02:39 AM
  #125
almostawake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nothing Is New View Post
Whats missing from this argument is an understanding of the hockey player psyche. Teams can be tough without a goon, but they are generally not. Who are the tough teams: Philly, Boston, Chicago, Anaheim more. ALll carry so-called 'goons'. Look at the reaction of the players on the bench during and after a fight. It is a motivator. They are fired up.
Sure it can be overdone, but ignore the other side at your peril.
Where are the goons on those rosters?

Shelley, Thornton, Bollig and Staubitz. Thornton is not a goon at this point. He takes a regular shift and is a key part of one of the most effective 4th lines in the NHL. Staubitz isn't a goon, more like a skating punching bag. Evidently the Hawks didn't put much faith in goons because Bollig was acquired for John Scott. Shelley can also take a regular shift to some degree.

Quote:
Originally Posted by trouty View Post
Point is it dont hurt to imploy one,you dont need to play him every game,and those teams that won championships the 2007 Ducks (prob toughest team) 2011 Bruins,2010 Hawks etc list goes on had more intimidating players then Chris Thorburn,in all honesty if someone wants to go out and destroy Kane is Thorburn gonna scare them off.Yes NHL fans we know the League will get them and suspend them.Jets far from put fear in any team and lack to toughness,not goon period
The toughness of those teams had nothing to do with goons. The 2007 Ducks had Parros but they also had a lot of gritty scrappy bottom 6 guys. Most importantly they had an ill tempered Pronger on the ice for literally half of every game. Pronger is way more of a deterrent than any goon.

The 2011 Bruins had no goons. The closest thing they had was Thornton but he wasn't what gave them their toughness. Chara set the tone on that team.

The Blackhawks ran a pretty aggressive 4th line in 2010 but it's not like any of those guys were legit heavyweights. The luxury of running that kind of a 4th line was also a result of having a top 6/9 full of the kind of talent the Jets can only dream of.

It's really funny that you brought up what would happen if someone ran Kane. Do you know the reason idiots don't run Kane? It's because they don't want to fight him. Almost no one in this league wants to tangle with Kane because he can take care of himself. That is what makes a team tough in this league. Having top pairing defencemen and top 6 forwards that intimidate the other team. Having legitimate toughness on the ice for 60 minutes, not 5.

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