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2/5/13 7PM Memories of Boudreau: Team of NHL Playing Glory vs Team of Coaching Glory

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02-06-2013, 08:15 AM
  #551
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I don't think I've ever seen a goalie look behind him/to his sides and be lost in the play more than Scrivens last night. It seemed literally every other second, the dude's head was on a swivel, so ****ing out of every play.


And we still couldn't beat him...

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02-06-2013, 08:17 AM
  #552
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
That was me wondering who was on PP2.

Anyone else besides me want to see more of Carlson atop the umbrella?

I thought he did great, and the chaos caused by his one timer opened up an easy passing lane for the great pass from Kund. Which means a bag skate for Hammer.

See MJ catch that pass with his boot? That's what offside wingers need to do more often.
I know - didn't want to point that out. But when you mentioned it could not have told you who was either.

Carlson at one point last night looked like a man possessed. I wish he would rush the puck more often like that. And to answer the umbrella question yes.

And it seems the Europeans don't hesitate using their boots. He made a great play so good for him.

Bag skate Hammer, bag skate.

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02-06-2013, 08:18 AM
  #553
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Originally Posted by Mystlyfe View Post
Is there anyone more to blame for this mess than Ovechkin? GMGM built a team around him, and now he sucks. Add a functioning Ovechkin to this team and this scenario looks a whole lot better.
So, you are saying with our team composed almost exclusively of non-skill banging wingers, undersized "grinders", underacheiving Swedes and 5 #7/#8 defensemen, our situation will "look a lot better" because of one d00d?

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02-06-2013, 08:46 AM
  #554
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
That was me wondering who was on PP2.

Anyone else besides me want to see more of Carlson atop the umbrella?

I thought he did great, and the chaos caused by his one timer opened up an easy passing lane for the great pass from Kund. Which means a bag skate for Hammer.

See MJ catch that pass with his boot? That's what offside wingers need to do more often.
I dunno, Carlson shoots more than Green but Green is very good with the passes on the PP. Carlson's shots can be a bit wild at times.

But JC played a great game yesterday.

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02-06-2013, 09:23 AM
  #555
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Originally Posted by tycoonheart View Post
I dunno, Carlson shoots more than Green but Green is very good with the passes on the PP. Carlson's shots can be a bit wild at times.

But JC played a great game yesterday.
From what little I saw yesterday, I think Carlson may him beat on:

passing creativity
passing speed

He appeared to work better with Nick. He one timed a pass to Nick (bump set), something green has not tried, to my memory. he used his backhand, which atop the brella, he must do to move pucks right or left quickly.

It also looked like a set play, give it right back to me for a one timer. Carlson's first chance to shoot, he crushed a one timer. It caused havoc. It may not matter that his shot is agreed probably more wild, as the players and goalie end up even farther out of optimal position when reacting to it.

He may well have not been trying to score on that shot, but to more generate a scoring chance.

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02-06-2013, 09:26 AM
  #556
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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
I know - didn't want to point that out. But when you mentioned it could not have told you who was either.

Carlson at one point last night looked like a man possessed. I wish he would rush the puck more often like that. And to answer the umbrella question yes.

And it seems the Europeans don't hesitate using their boots. He made a great play so good for him.

Bag skate Hammer, bag skate.
I think everyone saw Carlson flying in on the rush leading the attack, more than once.

I think he was prodded by Calle to move up and try and help our feeble offense. And I hope it was just him, and not all our slow LDs.

When Carlson is getting schooled staying back, why not let him try and score some. Let someone else get his back. It makes sense to me with an offensive guy learning NHL D. Let him do things he does well, as he learns.

Lord knows we need the offensive help. And, indeed we all know poor old hammer needs more bag skates. George is trying to get him to bolt, for Laich.

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02-06-2013, 10:21 AM
  #557
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It's an identity thing. And we don't have one. BB and DFH couldn't have been more different and now Oates walks into a roster without any obvious strengths and tries to implement, what exactly? Great coaching is about getting the most out of the talent on hand. Fine. But what are you supposed to do when you have 20 guys that don't fit together and do don't anything particularly well? Does GM speak with his coaches and figure out what type of skill sets they need? The roster is a mess and the morale is in the shytter. Evaluating anything from that point is hopeless. MoJo looks terrible but is it his fault or the fault of the team for jerking a young kid around?

They need to figure out who they want to be and build a roster to that. The desperation stuff of signing random parts and drastically altering coaching philosophies has created this mess. Worse, the players see it and have gone soft because there's a total lack of direction. It's fixable but the current situation is a GM clusterf*** and someone else needs to be brought here and take this team forward.


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02-06-2013, 12:21 PM
  #558
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Originally Posted by IkeaMonkey View Post
So, you are saying with our team composed almost exclusively of non-skill banging wingers, undersized "grinders", underacheiving Swedes and 5 #7/#8 defensemen, our situation will "look a lot better" because of one d00d?
When that "d00d" is has been named the best player at his position five times, voted by his peers to be the best player in the game three times, and twice been named MVP... yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's not as if this team is constructed differently than the past couple years, both of which finished as one of the final 8 teams.

It's the guys McPhee decided to make cornerstones of the team that have failed recently. I don't recall many of you complaining when McPhee decided to lock up guys like Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Carlson.

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02-06-2013, 12:28 PM
  #559
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When that "d00d" is has been named the best player at his position five times, voted by his peers to be the best player in the game three times, and twice been named MVP... yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. It's not as if this team is constructed differently than the past couple years, both of which finished as one of the final 8 teams.

It's the guys McPhee decided to make cornerstones of the team that have failed recently. I don't recall many of you complaining when McPhee decided to lock up guys like Ovechkin, Backstrom, and Carlson.
Ding, ding, ding we have a winner!

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02-06-2013, 12:32 PM
  #560
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How good would Ovechkin have to be for this team to win a cup? The way it's built he'd probably have to play at a GOAT level. With Ovechkin at his 2008-2010 best we're a middle of the road playoff team that doesn't get out of the second round. If you're blaming Ovechkin for this predicament then I guess that's the team you're striving for.

Seriously, look at the roster. It ****ing blows. You could put a gun to my head and I wouldn't be able to honestly tell what style they're built for.

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02-06-2013, 12:38 PM
  #561
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
How good would Ovechkin have to be for this team to win a cup? The way it's built he'd probably have to play at a GOAT level. With Ovechkin at his 2008-2010 best we're a middle of the road playoff team that doesn't get out of the second round. If you're blaming Ovechkin for this predicament then I guess that's the team you're striving for.

Seriously, look at the roster. It ****ing blows. You could put a gun to my head and I wouldn't be able to honestly tell what style they're built for.
And conversely how good would the rest of the roster need to be to win a cup with Ovechkin playing like and producing like this and is that even possible in a capped league...?

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02-06-2013, 12:58 PM
  #562
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And conversely how good would the rest of the roster need to be to win a cup with Ovechkin playing like and producing like this and is that even possible in a capped league...?
Depends. It's the little things that add up. Perhaps replacing Schultz and Poti with good top 4 defensemen cuts the GA/g down by, say .5. That's 40 less goals Ovechkin would have to score to balance it out. Perhaps getting a scoring threat on the 2nd line and a support winger for Ovechkin who gets him and would have chemistry with him makes each line much more potent, and as a result the defense has to split coverage, making each line even more potent. Obviously not scientifically accurate, but you get what I mean. Hockey is a very exponential game. Maybe getting an experienced goalie doesn't deflate teams early on and have them play tentative and as a result, hey, they score more since they don't have that in the back of their heads.

As far as Ovechkin "producing like this"... doesn't matter if he still brings it in the playoffs. Which there is no indication that he wouldn't. Who cares about his regular season numbers when May rolls around?

Also, as far as a capped league... someone should really pass that note to McPhee so he doesn't have 21 million tied up in guys with maybe half a top 6 player and 0 top 4 defensemen between them.


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02-06-2013, 01:01 PM
  #563
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The Caps are looking like spending May on the links, so I'd say ihis regular season numbers are pretty important.

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02-06-2013, 01:04 PM
  #564
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The Caps are looking like spending May on the links, so I'd say ihis regular season numbers are pretty important.
If that's the difference between the playoffs or not then we have problems far beyond his regular numbers. Which we do, the numbers are just far easier to key in on. And well-built team his regular season numbers go up as well. More secondary scoring, less pressure, less derpage by defense forcing them to play from behind/have no transition/etc. He's probably still a 40-40 player at least on a good team. Still generates a ton of offensive chances, they just don't go anywhere as he's being shaded/linemates aren't capable of doing much with them.

End goal is to win a cup, no?

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02-06-2013, 01:14 PM
  #565
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
If that's the difference between the playoffs or not then we have problems far beyond his regular numbers. Which we do, the numbers are just far easier to key in on. And well-built team his regular season numbers go up as well. More secondary scoring, less pressure, less derpage by defense forcing them to play from behind/have no transition/etc. He's probably still a 40-40 player at least on a good team. Still generates a ton of offensive chances, they just don't go anywhere as he's being shaded/linemates aren't capable of doing much with them.

End goal is to win a cup, no?
When your best, highest paid player and captain isn't leading the way, you're not going to get far as a team. The guy is paid 1/8th of the team's allotted money. 7/8ths of a team isn't going to carry him to the playoffs.

You don't think it rubs off on other guys when Ovechkin isn't having success? They see his frustration.

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02-06-2013, 01:23 PM
  #566
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Looks like Chimera is with Halpysback on this one:
Quote:
Jason Chimera on Ovechkin: "You canít look to 1 person. 1 person doesnít win you a Stanley Cup. You got to look at yourself in the mirror"

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02-06-2013, 01:24 PM
  #567
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When your best, highest paid player and captain isn't leading the way, you're not going to get far as a team. The guy is paid 1/8th of the team's allotted money. 7/8ths of a team isn't going to carry him to the playoffs.

You don't think it rubs off on other guys when Ovechkin isn't having success? They see his frustration.
He rubs off on them, and they rub off on him, and it's a negative feedback loop that just dooms the team. If the rest of the team can carry Ovechkin Ovechkin can carry the rest of the team. That's what happened in 2009-2010, when his offense wasn't there as much as before but the rest of the team was firing on all cylinders and he was still producing a bucketload with them.

I mean, there's two things you can do. Scream at Ovechkin to produce more in this situation or build the rest of the team in a way that makes it easier for him to play/them to play. One of these things will yield results, one won't (even if he comes out of his funk and plays PPG, which he's pressing hard enough to though not being rewarded for it). All it comes down to.

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02-06-2013, 01:34 PM
  #568
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
He rubs off on them, and they rub off on him, and it's a negative feedback loop that just dooms the team. If the rest of the team can carry Ovechkin Ovechkin can carry the rest of the team. That's what happened in 2009-2010, when his offense wasn't there as much as before but the rest of the team was firing on all cylinders and he was still producing a bucketload with them.

I mean, there's two things you can do. Scream at Ovechkin to produce more in this situation or build the rest of the team in a way that makes it easier for him to play/them to play. One of these things will yield results, one won't (even if he comes out of his funk and plays PPG, which he's pressing hard enough to though not being rewarded for it). All it comes down to.
So you're paying a star player so you can get players to make it easier for him? I could understand your argument better if he was leading the team in scoring (still not up to his standards) but the fact is there are five players better than him in the scoring department and he has one single even strength point. THAT'S ALL. He's not paying his way. Teams figured out that you just jam him up and nullify his speed he has no other skills. Ribeiro and Backstrom have more skill than Ovechkin ATM.

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02-06-2013, 01:38 PM
  #569
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So you're paying a star player so you can get players to make it easier for him? I could understand your argument better if he was leading the team in scoring (still not up to his standards) but the fact is there are five players better than him in the scoring department and he has one single even strength point. THAT'S ALL. He's not paying his way. Teams figured out that you just jam him up and nullify his speed he has no other skills. Ribeiro and Backstrom have more skill than Ovechkin ATM.
If you want to succeed, yeah. Kings kept packign in players until there was much less pressure on Kopitar, then they succeeded. Same deal with Hawks and Flyers back when they were good. Sharks are doing the same and succeeding now. Devils had enough high end players that there was little pressure on Kovalchuk. Rangers brought in Nash this year to take even more pressure off of their star players. You can talk about Ovechkin not performing up to standards all you want, but if you want to win, that's what you do. A guy going through a slump is generally gonna have a hard time getting out of it if he's being keyed in on and the rest of the team isn't doing much with being open.

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02-06-2013, 01:50 PM
  #570
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
If you want to succeed, yeah. Kings kept packign in players until there was much less pressure on Kopitar, then they succeeded. Same deal with Hawks and Flyers back when they were good. Sharks are doing the same and succeeding now. Devils had enough high end players that there was little pressure on Kovalchuk. Rangers brought in Nash this year to take even more pressure off of their star players. You can talk about Ovechkin not performing up to standards all you want, but if you want to win, that's what you do. A guy going through a slump is generally gonna have a hard time getting out of it if he's being keyed in on and the rest of the team isn't doing much with being open.
Why do five guys have more points than Ovechkin? And Ovechkin has been getting a ton of ice time? As I said I could understand your agrument more if Ovechkin is doing his share, leading the team in scoring (although again not up to his standards).

On an individual basis I don't think this roster is chopped liver. I do agree there is something inherently wrong. Personally last year when BB was replaced, my preference would have been someone with experience. And I feel the same this year. A coach with experience in handling elite star players.

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02-06-2013, 03:26 PM
  #571
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Depends. It's the little things that add up. Perhaps replacing Schultz and Poti with good top 4 defensemen cuts the GA/g down by, say .5. That's 40 less goals Ovechkin would have to score to balance it out. Perhaps getting a scoring threat on the 2nd line and a support winger for Ovechkin who gets him and would have chemistry with him makes each line much more potent, and as a result the defense has to split coverage, making each line even more potent. Obviously not scientifically accurate, but you get what I mean. Hockey is a very exponential game. Maybe getting an experienced goalie doesn't deflate teams early on and have them play tentative and as a result, hey, they score more since they don't have that in the back of their heads.

As far as Ovechkin "producing like this"... doesn't matter if he still brings it in the playoffs. Which there is no indication that he wouldn't. Who cares about his regular season numbers when May rolls around?

Also, as far as a capped league... someone should really pass that note to McPhee so he doesn't have 21 million tied up in guys with maybe half a top 6 player and 0 top 4 defensemen between them.
And perhaps Ovechkin could start playing at least as well as the guy who was able to pot 98 goals and put up 198 points over two seasons with so much talent around him that they twice finished with 70 points even with him producing like that...?

Instead we have a guy with a $9.5+ mil cap hit producing like a good 3rd liner even though he is getting almost 22 minutes, including over 5.5 minutes of PP time, per game. Any actual 3rd liner in this league who got that kind of ice time would see his production go through the roof.

Just as a point of reference immediately after the fire sale when this team had nobody and Halpern was their 1st line center and getting all that great ice time he put up close to a point a game over the rest of the season. Again, Jeff 'friggin Halpern was almost a point a game player on a simply terrible team.

So Ovechkin was able to get it done on a couple of teams that were not as good as this one and Halpern was able to get it done on a team that was way worse than this one but expecting Ovechkin to get it done now, while carrying the highest cap hit in the league, is asking too much?

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02-06-2013, 03:30 PM
  #572
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Looks like Chimera is with Halpysback on this one:
It's not like he would gain a single positive by saying "Yeah, we sure miss 50g/100pt Ovy. We could sure use him back after 2.5 years of haitus."......


That's a team line at best from Chimera....

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02-06-2013, 03:39 PM
  #573
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Why do guys have more points than Ovi, I will chime in.

Ovi was learning a new position and by everyone's accounts looked somewhat lost. Had MJ as a line mate who was soon scratched. Had grinder linemates no one expected to work well with him for 3 or 4 games. He is still largely solved by the league. Our new PP set up results in him barely even touching the puck. Still rushes North into the play, has E/W linemates. The new system, if he IS trying to play a team game, must be more confused than most players. Our team sucks. He is our only scoring winger and is keyed on heavily.

Was he dominating / doing very well in the KHL? If so, that says something.

Lord knows what, but something here is not working. Here, he is our captain. Strip that **** and get a vocal locker room leader that can yell at him. Maybe Poti, the only player I have seen angry this year.

Get him on a logical line, which we have recently done. And he seems to be showing signs of playing better.

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02-06-2013, 03:44 PM
  #574
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The current PP seems set up to get one of three different shots:

--tap in on pass through the crease/slot
--Ovie on a weakside one-timer
--Slapper from the point

In that order. Pretty typical if you ask me, and those goals don't seem much different from years past.

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02-06-2013, 04:49 PM
  #575
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Excuse the copy paste

The current PP seems to set up to get one of three different shots:

--Brouwer in the slot one timer
--Ribs cross ice pass to Ovie one-timer
--Green passing into Ovi's wheelhouse.

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