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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

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Old
02-08-2013, 04:17 PM
  #301
VanIslander
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
What was impressive about his play in Vancouver?

It took him three years to have even a decent season.
Why do you say that? Stat sheets? I went to Pacific Coliseum and saw several games a season, many more on t.v., and talked with fellow fans at the games, in sports bars, listened to sports talk radio in Vancouver too, was following hockey as I always do. WE liked Larionov in Vancouver!! How do I prove it 20-odd years later? Hmm,... never thought I'd ever be doing that (had little interest in the history of the gme back then). I'll see if I can dig up a newspaper article about him, get a thread going on the Vancouver Canucks board here at HfBoards. I'll get back to you on this.

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02-08-2013, 04:18 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Why do you always feel the need to whitewash the flaws of every player who is criticized?
They aren't exactly here to defend themselves.

And I can't believe you're advocating downgrading 10 years of play because of 60 games after a guy left the Iron Curtain and discovered he liked hot dogs.

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02-08-2013, 04:18 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
How do you know he played like he belonged in the NHL and Krutov didn't?

My recollection is that Kasatonov outplayed him.




They were both 29 in their first season in Vancouver.

Larionov is actually younger by about 6 months.
Whoops, got him mixed up with the rest of the Green Unit. Makarov and Fetisov were 31, Kasatonov 30, Larionov and Krutov 29.

Regardless, you might be the only one I've seen who actually watched hockey at the time defending Krutov's performance in the NHL.

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02-08-2013, 04:20 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Whoops, got him mixed up with the rest of the Green Unit. Makarov and Fetisov were 31, Kasatonov 30, Larionov and Krutov 29.

Regardless, you might be the only one I've seen who actually watched hockey at the time defending Krutov's performance in the NHL.
Oh no, I'm not saying he played well at all! He was awful compared to his capability.

I'm just saying I don't think we should be downgrading his whole career on the basis of 60 games when freshly removed from behind the curtain.

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02-08-2013, 04:21 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Why do you say that? Stat sheets? I went to Pacific Coliseum and saw several games a season, many more on t.v., and talked with fellow fans at the games, in sports bars, listened to sports talk radio in Vancouver too, was following hockey as I always do. WE liked Larionov in Vancouver!! How do I prove it 20-odd years later? Hmm,... never thought I'd ever be doing that (had little interest in the history of the gme back then). I'll see if I can dig up a newspaper article about him, get a thread going on the Vancouver Canucks board here at HfBoards. I'll get back to you on this.
Yeah, I thought it was pretty common knowledge among hockey fans who were around then...

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02-08-2013, 04:28 PM
  #306
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Pick 216 List

Sent 11 names to TDMM and BC for pick 216.

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Old
02-08-2013, 04:38 PM
  #307
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Fetisov's "benefit of the doubt" comes mainly from playing like he belonged in the NHL even if not as a star, combined with already being on the decline before came over.



Larionov was older than Krutov and not that prolific a scorer even in his prime. Nobody is drafting Larionov to be a star offensively in the ATD, at least I hope not. Larionov also played a decent two-way game after coming over.
Woo woo, hold on. Are we not taking the entire career under consideration, not just the NHL years?
If not there's a lot of old-timers and Euros that would fail this criteria miserably.

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02-08-2013, 04:42 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yeah, I thought it was pretty common knowledge among hockey fans who were around then...
Not really. I'm a Boston guy, rarely saw Western Conference foes at a regular basis. VAN played the Bruins 3 times that season, really not enough of a sample to form a quality decision.

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02-08-2013, 04:46 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Why do you say that? Stat sheets? I went to Pacific Coliseum and saw several games a season, many more on t.v., and talked with fellow fans at the games, in sports bars, listened to sports talk radio in Vancouver too, was following hockey as I always do. WE liked Larionov in Vancouver!! How do I prove it 20-odd years later? Hmm,... never thought I'd ever be doing that (had little interest in the history of the gme back then). I'll see if I can dig up a newspaper article about him, get a thread going on the Vancouver Canucks board here at HfBoards. I'll get back to you on this.
The difference was, as he always did, he played smart hockey. Fans can respect that. Krutov was like Messier in Vancouver, trying to play like a star without being in the physical condition to do so, fans hate that. Larianov recognized that he had a tough adaptation and played accordingly.

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02-08-2013, 04:55 PM
  #310
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Woo woo, hold on. Are we not taking the entire career under consideration, not just the NHL years?
If not there's a lot of old-timers and Euros that would fail this criteria miserably.
If I were only taking Krutov's NHL years into account, I'd say he wasn't worthy of being drafted in the ATD, MLD, AAA draft, X, Y, or Z draft. But I said that he was an okay pick now. I just don't think that he was some kind of steal like the GMs who want to gloss over his flaws for some reason.

I was mostly objecting to vecens' statement that the questions about Krutov are "stupid."


Last edited by TheDevilMadeMe: 02-08-2013 at 05:06 PM.
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Old
02-08-2013, 05:26 PM
  #311
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Originally Posted by VanIslander View Post
Why do you say that? Stat sheets? I went to Pacific Coliseum and saw several games a season, many more on t.v., and talked with fellow fans at the games, in sports bars, listened to sports talk radio in Vancouver too, was following hockey as I always do. WE liked Larionov in Vancouver!! How do I prove it 20-odd years later? Hmm,... never thought I'd ever be doing that (had little interest in the history of the gme back then). I'll see if I can dig up a newspaper article about him, get a thread going on the Vancouver Canucks board here at HfBoards. I'll get back to you on this.
I was just a wee little kid, but I don't think Larionov was really making much of an impact until his 3rd season when he duo'd with the rookie Bure.

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02-08-2013, 05:27 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
If I were only taking Krutov's NHL years into account, I'd say he wasn't worthy of being drafted in the ATD, MLD, AAA draft, X, Y, or Z draft. But I said that he was an okay pick now. I just don't think that he was some kind of steal like the GMs who want to gloss over his flaws for some reason.

I was mostly objecting to vecens' statement that the questions about Krutov are "stupid."
I get what you are saying but my thinking is that his "flaws" were more related to his off ice adaption to a new culture than in his game itself.

He was a dynamic player. The weight he put on (his fault of course as a professional athlete) killed much of that before he even laced on his skates that season.

If you have a moment try reading that blog by Lupul where he goes from thinking like you himself to realizing what a change it is..

For sure that is to the benefit of guys like Larionov et al. that they were able to stick with it and adapt and succeed but my thought is that we're coming down pretty hard on a guy for a single partial season.

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02-08-2013, 05:40 PM
  #313
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After too much deliberation Halifax selects Frank Foyston, F.

Can someone please pm next I'm already late for something.

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02-08-2013, 05:41 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by BraveCanadian View Post
I get what you are saying but my thinking is that his "flaws" were more related to his off ice adaption to a new culture than in his game itself.

He was a dynamic player. The weight he put on (his fault of course as a professional athlete) killed much of that before he even laced on his skates that season.

If you have a moment try reading that blog by Lupul where he goes from thinking like you himself to realizing what a change it is..

For sure that is to the benefit of guys like Larionov et al. that they were able to stick with it and adapt and succeed but my thought is that we're coming down pretty hard on a guy for a single partial season.
Yeah. Like we have quotes like this from coaches and teammates in Vancouver that echo it was a training and adaptation issue:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petr Polak
He received a contract for $2.1 million per year and was faced with an endless world of opportunities and didn't know what to do with his free time. Vladimir started to enjoy the life and money and was not able to discipline himself. 1989-90 Canucks head coach Bob McCammon said, "His usual routine was to stop at a 7-eleven Store and order two hot dogs, a bag of potato chips and a soft drink. After practice, he would return for a second order."
Quote:
“It was a terrible experience for him,” former Canuck GM Pat Quinn said of Krutov’s NHL experience. “He really wasn’t enjoying it all and he didn’t want to be here. You could see flashes of his hockey ability from time to time but not enough. He couldn’t sustain it. He wasn’t conditioned well.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun, June 6, 2012
“I think Kruts was the proverbial fish out of water,” said Paul Reinhart, a former teammate on the Vancouver Canucks. “He just never really got adjusted or acclimatized to the North American world and, therefore, he was never able to produce. But he was as good a player all through the 1980s as anybody in the world. I think the shame for Kruts is that he was not suited to leave Russia. And that's unfortunate.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun, June 6, 2012
“Larionov was a very urbane, worldly educated sort of guy and was excellent in English while Krutov not so much,” Quinn explained. “He didn't have any English and was a peasant in terms of his upbringing. He was certainly a good hockey player but, unlike Larionov who was able to make the transition quite easily and welcomed it, Krutov was homesick right away.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vancouver Sun, June 6, 2012
“We tend to forget how hard it was for the Russians coming over,” continued Reinhart, five months older than Krutov. “They were not only leaving their own system and culture, they were coming to a culture that wasn't necessarily welcoming. What I mean by that is the fact Kruts and Larionov were among the first Russians, the pioneers, to come over here. There were some reservations by Canadians, Canadian hockey players and media in terms of 'hey, what are these Russians doing here, stealing our jobs and taking our money?'

“I'm not suggesting that was a main factor in Kruts not adjusting,” added Reinhart, “but it certainly was an underlying one. He left a very rigid environment that he was very controlled in. He just had a very tough time adjusting to the freedoms.”
Quote:
Originally Posted by Associated Press, June 6, 2012
Krutov was 30 when he joined the Canucks, but appeared older. He reportedly signed a three-year deal with the Canucks, but lasted just one season, clashing with coach Bob McCammon.

"When you sit on a bench for 15 minutes and then come on to the ice for just three minutes, you feel your legs are swollen and you can't move at top speed," he said late in the season through an interpreter.
To speculate that it was steroids when there were so many other factors at play here is irresponsible at best in my opinion.

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Old
02-08-2013, 05:44 PM
  #315
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For sure that is to the benefit of guys like Larionov et al. that they were able to stick with it and adapt and succeed but my thought is that we're coming down pretty hard on a guy for a single partial season.
Player A... age 32... 20 GP, 1 G

Player B... age 33... 20 GP, 9 G

Player D... age 29... 76 GP, 12 G

Player E... age 29... 43 GP, 12 G

We want to guess who these players are?

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02-08-2013, 05:44 PM
  #316
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A test of Hockey History mettle: Do you know your Frank Fredrickson from your Frank Foyston?

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02-08-2013, 05:45 PM
  #317
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He didn't exactly set the world on fire in Switzerland or the Swedish second tier league either. Pretty clearly a player who is useless unless put in the ideal situation.

Why do you always feel the need to whitewash the flaws of every player who is criticized?

I actually don't think this is that bad a place for Krutov to be drafted*, I just think there is a constant effort on this forum (and the history forum) to gloss over the flaws of older players, and IMO, you can't celebrate true greatness without accurately taking flaws into account.

*Though I certainly wouldn't have taken him. He and Phil Esposito don't exactly thrive in a similar environment.
tbh only three players went to have any meaningful careers after defecting. Fetisov, Larionov and Stastny. Makarov wer mistreated for some strange reason and never really got a shot so we can include him too. Then we have two Czechs, one who did very well but only for one season and the other one stayed for two.

Krutov gained wait over the summer, most likely because of depression and alcoholism. He didnt like america and got homesick.

Quote:
I think the trainers in Vancouver know how it works.
Maybe, since there is different kinds of doping maybe not.

My point is that we can obviously fault Krutov for not making it in the NHL but we must also acknowledge that its pretty hard and rare to do it at that age and coming form a different culture.

If we are going to raise question about his alledged doping we should also raise questiong about other players who comes back faster than expected from injuries like nothing has happened, kids who build insane amounts of muscles in a very short time, players known to take cocaine and so on.

Basically all we would talk about is if a player did juice themselves up. Which is more likely than not in alot of cases.

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02-08-2013, 05:47 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Yeah. Like we have quotes like this from coaches and teammates in Vancouver that echo it was a training and adaptation issue:

To speculate that it was steroids when there were so many other factors at play here is irresponsible at best in my opinion.
Hopefully, you didn't search for all those quotes... they're in my Krutov bio

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02-08-2013, 05:50 PM
  #319
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Hopefully, you didn't search for all those quotes... they're in my Krutov bio
It took me approximately seven mins to find them lol.

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02-08-2013, 06:02 PM
  #320
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A test of Hockey History mettle: Do you know your Frank Fredrickson from your Frank Foyston?
If you are in the ATD, I should hope so. If not, I highly doubt it.

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02-08-2013, 06:06 PM
  #321
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Not to sound crass, but June 6, 2012 is the date that Krutov died unexpectedly, so I don't expect articles released then to exactly take an objective view of his career.

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02-08-2013, 06:23 PM
  #322
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Huh, good thing I checked in, eh? I'm up.

Give me some time, I have to take a look at what's available. Ugh.

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02-08-2013, 06:28 PM
  #323
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Not to sound crass, but June 6, 2012 is the date that Krutov died unexpectedly, so I don't expect articles released then to exactly take an objective view of his career.
They aren't exactly looking at his talent level either though. All they're doing is remembering what troubled him when he came over.

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Old
02-08-2013, 06:29 PM
  #324
TheDevilMadeMe
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Oh and since I'm probably papershoes and SchultzSquared's least favorite GM right now, here's something you guys will like if you haven't seen it before:

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In a poll of NHL general managers during the mid-1980's asking them to select the player they would start a franchise with, Hawerchuk was voted third behind only Gretzky and Paul Coffey
http://www.legendsofhockey.net/Legen...page=bio&list=

(as a bonus, I can toot my own player's horn in the process)

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Old
02-08-2013, 06:32 PM
  #325
Nalyd Psycho
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I have finally completed my bio on Reginald "Hooley" Smith

Special thanks to Sturminator and Dreakmur for their past research on Smith.

Next up, Reg Noble and a quick update on the existing St Louis bio.

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