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ATD 2013 - Draft Thread III

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Old
02-14-2013, 07:30 AM
  #851
markrander87
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I'm actually happy somebody else drafted daniel. We all saw what Henrik is capable of without him. Now I have more options when creating my line around Henrik.


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02-14-2013, 08:08 AM
  #852
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Je suis certain que je fais moins de faute de grammaire en anglais que tu en fais en français.
I suppose that'd make perfect sense... if English was my native language.

Seems like once I'm done with Spanish I'll have to get around to learning French.

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02-14-2013, 08:21 AM
  #853
Dwight
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Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
Je suis certain que je fais moins de faute de grammaire en anglais que tu en fais en français.
*fautes

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02-14-2013, 08:49 AM
  #854
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
*fautes
I actually re-read my sentence three times to make sure I didn't make any mistakes!

Ok, back to the topic at hand: Daniel Sedin, Alf Smith, Phil Watson! Who's next to select?

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02-14-2013, 08:59 AM
  #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
I actually re-read my sentence three times to make sure I didn't make any mistakes!

Ok, back to the topic at hand: Daniel Sedin, Alf Smith, Phil Watson! Who's next to select?
Vecens and I are up, but Alf Smith was our guy.

Don't expect a pick soon....

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Old
02-14-2013, 09:01 AM
  #856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyShoe1721 View Post
I still don't know how I feel about [Frank McGee]. I picked him about 25 picks earlier 2 years ago, and I found a lot of great stuff, but he has just 4 years and gets a lot of mileage out of being such a great playoff scorer at face value, but when you get in-depth about who he scored his goals against, it looks a lot less impressive.
Obviously a 14-goal game is silly, but I've been criticized in the past with having too many 1952 birthdays on my team and I've been intrigued with his game as long as I knew who he was.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Montreal Herald, 1906
Who is the best hockey player in Canada? Nine out of ten people will tell you it is either Frank McGee or Tommy Phillips. Phillips is the speedier, but he has nothing on McGee in the matter of stickhandling and has not the same generalship. Where each shines is in pulling doubtful games out of the fires of uncertainty.
I'm always a bit leery of firsthand accounts from so long ago, when professional hockey was still a new phenomenon, because they're all so overwhelmingly positive compared to modern commentary that revels in pointing out holes in Luc Robitaille's game. But first-hand accounts are first-hand accounts, and I can't read BillyShoe's ATD bio thread post about McGee without getting giddy … let's see what the voters think about his line.

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02-14-2013, 09:05 AM
  #857
EagleBelfour
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Vecens and I are up, but Alf Smith was our guy.

Don't expect a pick soon....
It's refreshing to know that Alf Smith wouldn't of been available at our original selection (#297).

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02-14-2013, 10:36 AM
  #858
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
I'm actually happy somebody else drafted daniel. We all saw what Henrik is capable of without him. Now I have more options when creating my line around Henrik.
Yeah...I'm glad you didn't go in for the double Sedin gong show. Established chemistry is overrated in the ATD, anyway.

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02-14-2013, 10:52 AM
  #859
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Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Yeah...I'm glad you didn't go in for the double Sedin gong show. Established chemistry is overrated in the ATD, anyway.
So what you're saying is only numbers count? And couldn't reputation just be an adjunct of chemistry? How many profiles have we read where the writer states, "When so-and-so was put with so-and-so, they clicked, etc....."?

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02-14-2013, 12:05 PM
  #860
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EagleBelfour View Post
It's refreshing to know that Alf Smith wouldn't of been available at our original selection (#297).
I didn't realize you were from QB, I wondered why you didn't take Shutt, and when you were in your prime if Reen took 100 penalty/shoot out shots against you would he have made 100 or 99?

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02-14-2013, 01:45 PM
  #861
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Well, we've been searching for a offensive player with a decent defensive game to play alongside Joliat and Morenz on our checking line. After a lot of discussion, we decided to go with a defensive player with a decent offensive game. Being that our 1st line will actually be used primarily as a match-up line, we thought it was very important to add an aspect of defensive responsibility to the aggressive fore- and back-checking Joliat and Morenz.

Anyway, the final piece to that line will be Jack Walker, F

Everyone should know by know that he's one of the best defensive wingers of all time, but I don't think a lot of people truly appreciate everything else he brought to the game. I'd be lying if I said he was a dynamic offensive player, but he does have some offensive game. His goalscoring is weak, there's no question, but his playmaking abilities might be pretty close to the best among remaining wingers. Even playing in the split league era, Walker's 11 top-10s in assists is very impressive. He wasn't just a passenger either - he led his teams in scoring a few times, and those were championship teams. He as also money in the play-offs, leading 2 Cup champions in play-off scoring.


Last edited by Dreakmur: 02-15-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 01:48 PM
  #862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
What are you basing both sides of that comment on?
I'm confused by the bolding and question but here goes.

I'm saying we harp on McGee for only playing 1903-1906, but look at Ottawa's record at that time. They win their first Cup in 1984 and then 9 years later they win it for the second time. They hold for almost all of 1903-1906. They lose three Stanley Cup challenge games during that reign with one to a Breen-led Manitoba team, another to Rat Portage in '05, and finally losing the their third and final game to the Wanderers in '06. McGee played 2/3 of those games, but the fact that Ottawa fared so much better against Rat Portage in '05 after he missed the first game seems very interesting. He retires after the '06 season and then Ottawa's down for two more seasons.

Basically, I'm glad that Frank McGee went before Alf Smith even though everyone loves Smith. Frank McGee was a great scorer and Alf Smith's offense seems overrated. Someone mentioned looking at who McGee scored his goals against in the playoffs, and that's exactly what I have problems with Smith.

Joe Malone seems to have been a one-way player and I thought the same was true for Russell Bowie. The fact that that isn't true for McGee should matter even if we want to focus on his 4 year career. He scored prolifically, but wasn't a goalsuck.

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02-14-2013, 01:52 PM
  #863
Dreakmur
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bring Back Scuderi View Post
I'm confused by the bolding and question but here goes.
Your comment had two parts. Frank McGee was good defensively. I'd like to see evidence of that, because I've never seen it.

The second part was that all the other offensive stars were bad defensively. Again, I'd like to see the evidence.

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:57 PM
  #864
Rob Scuderi
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Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Your comment had two parts. Frank McGee was good defensively. I'd like to see evidence of that, because I've never seen it.

The second part was that all the other offensive stars were bad defensively. Again, I'd like to see the evidence.
Go to the bio thread and control f backchecking on McGee's bio. I'm not going to research Bowie's defensive ability for you

I believe TDMM didn't find much of anything about it last year so that was why I mention his name.

edit: I wrote "He wasn't a one-way guy like some of the other early era scorers either." Where are you getting the bolded?

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:07 PM
  #865
BillyShoe1721
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dreakmur View Post
Your comment had two parts. Frank McGee was good defensively. I'd like to see evidence of that, because I've never seen it.

The second part was that all the other offensive stars were bad defensively. Again, I'd like to see the evidence.
I believe my bio is what he's referring to, specifically these quotes:

Quote:
"He was even better than they say he was. He had everything - speed, stickhandling, scoring ability and was a punishing checker. He was strongly built but beautifully proportioned and he had an almost animal rhythm."
Quote:
” I saw Frank knocked cold half a dozen times in the one match and honest, he survived to score the last two goals that won the game. No one could slow him up. My, but he was game! Taking the puck and beginning a series of slashing attacks, he finally sailed right into the mouth of the net with two defenders doing their best to eat him alive. He took a dozen nasty cracks and still scored one minute before time. Seconds later, he repeated the feat and was able to skate off smiling.

seized the puck at center ice, skated in with the speed of a prairie cyclone and shot. I saw him backcheck furiously, dodge here and there, flash from side to side, stickhandle his way through a knot of struggling players, slap the puck into the open net and go down in a heap as he did so.
Quote:
When Frank checks he checks to win.

McGee is certainly a wonder and the way be rushes in to block the point or cover point's lift is beautiful. Three times out of four he succeeded in keeping the puck from passing centre, and often caught it before the lift was made.
Quote:
He was also intensely competitive and at his best in important games.
Quote:
a player with ability was a marked man. Bowie never had a thing on him when a goal was needed. He eclipsed every center man playing, had a snap shot that was positively wicked, and always aimed for the corners. Incidentally, he gave as much punishment as he received.
I think it's enough to say that he at least made an effort to backcheck and was not afraid to mix it up and defend himself. Would I call him a two-way player? Probably not, but I'd say he's not a negative defensively.

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:16 PM
  #866
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With pick #283 the Chicago Shamrocks are going to select a player that some have been skeptical about playing on an ATD 2nd pairing because of his defensive ability. We think that we have the perfect situation for him to do that..he'll be next to a rock solid defensive partner in Jack Crawford who also has experience playing with a very offensive minded partner, and he will also be backed up by an elite goaltender in Jacques Plante. The Chicago Shamrocks select, Phil Housley, D

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:25 PM
  #867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BubbaBoot View Post
So what you're saying is only numbers count? And couldn't reputation just be an adjunct of chemistry? How many profiles have we read where the writer states, "When so-and-so was put with so-and-so, they clicked, etc....."?
Not saying that, at all, but there are many ways to skin a cat. I have nothing against reuniting players who performed well together in real life, but it's a "nice to have", not really important, in my opinion. A well-built line where all of the roles are filled is going to be just as good as a reunited real-life line, in my opinion.

In some cases (reuniting the S Line or the GAG line or the Party line, for example), I would actively discourage it, because the line as a whole either underperformed relative to its talent, or one member of the line was simply not an ATD scoringline quality player. Hans and Franz certainly play well together, but I think Henrik could be successful with a wide variety of wingers.

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Old
02-14-2013, 02:27 PM
  #868
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I have TDMM's selection. Here's his blurb:

Quote:
Swamp Devils select the captain of the 1960s Leafs dynasty:

George Armstrong, RW

Armstrong was inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1975, only 4 seasons after he retired. Andy Bathgate and Marcel Pronovost were among the eligible players passed up in favor of Armstrong. In other words, this wasn't a Veteran's Committee pick.

7 All Star Games (1956, 1957, 1959 on merit; 1962, 1963, 1964, 1968 as the previous Cup winner).

Armstrong has been somewhat typecast as an elite third liner in this draft, but his offense is every bit as good as guys who have been used as glue guys on scoring lines in the past:

Goals: 13th, 15th, 16th, 19th, 20th
Assists: 11th, 12th, 17th, 18th
Points: 15th, 16th, 16th, 18th, 18th

Armstrong did all this without the benefit of seeing large amounts of powerplay time.

The Toronto Maple Leafs won 3 consecutive Cups in 1962, 1963, and 1964, and Armstrong led them in playoff scoring over these three years:

1. George Armstrong 15-19-34
2. Red Kelly 10-21-31
3. Dave Keon 19-10-29
4. Frank Mahovlich 10-19-29
5. Tim Horton 4-20-24
6. Bob Pulford 14-9-23

And offense is probably the weakest part of Armstrong's game. He was known as an excellent cornerman, and a very good defensive player.

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02-14-2013, 02:32 PM
  #869
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The Fireworks are very pleased to select G George Hainsworth

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02-14-2013, 02:36 PM
  #870
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markrander87 View Post
The Fireworks are very pleased to select G George Hainsworth
Oh Jesus, here we go again.

I'm OTC but I'm headed out to hockey practice and I'm up in the air between a couple guys, don't expect a pick soon.

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02-14-2013, 02:46 PM
  #871
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Thanks for announcing the pick, Sturm. Always love those rare times when I try to trade up for a guy and he falls to me anyway.

I just wasn't a big fan of the value of the guys normally used on scoring lines who could fit with either Espo or Kovy. (Alf Smith was definitely on my radar, but I wasn't super excited about him). So I figured maybe this'll finally be the draft that I draft elite third liners. So I started running numbers on third liners and was really surprised by just how passable George Armstrong's offense was, even as a scoring line glue guy. Guys like Cashman and Tonelli are used on ATD scoring lines as glue guys, why not a Hall of Famer like Armstrong?

I might still use Armstrong as an elite third liner like usual, but I think a Sid Abel - Phil Esposito - George Armstrong line is basically a significantly better version of the line Esposito played on in real life, especially defensively.

Anyway, here are a few of the better quotes about Armstrong from raptor's bio last year:

Quote:
Originally Posted by LOH
Armstrong was never a great skater but was rarely out of position; he knew how to play the angles on the opposing forwards and was a great corner man in the offensive zone.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LOH
Armstrong was named as captain of the Leafs to start the 1957-58 season and was called by Conn Smythe "the best captain, as a captain, the Leafs have ever had." Smythe later honoured his captain by naming one of his horses Big Chief Army, something Smythe had done on only two other occasions for Charlie Conacher and Jean Beliveau.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelletier
Critics said he was a slow, clumsy skater who didn't possess a great shot. Yet somehow he overachieved. He played in 21 NHL seasons, all with the Leafs, and record 296 goals and 713 points in almost 1200 games. He is remembered as one of the all time great Leaf captains and is a member of the National Hockey League Hall of Fame.

Armstrong was able to adjust to the NHL game and prove his critics wrong. He became a very reliable two way player. He was always dependable in his own zone and patrolled his wing with great efficiency, and there are few players who could work the walls and corners with the effectiveness of Armstrong. Offensively he contributed steady though never mind boggling statistics, but was always dangerous when he controlled the puck close to the net. He was the team jester off the ice, but deadly serious on it, both in games and in practice.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pelletier
Other than his longevity, no hockey statistic could ever relate just how important a player Armstrong was. All the unquantifiable intangibles that make hockey such a great game is where Armstrong excelled.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Back of his 1970-71 Topps hockey card
Never a prolific scorer, George is a tenacious checker and his perserverance in the corners is evident in the number of times he comes with the puck.

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02-14-2013, 02:53 PM
  #872
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Some comments on recent picks:
  • Dreakmur and vecens - you guys are getting pretty predictable. I took a long hard look at both Smith and Walker before deciding on Armstrong. I almost sent you guys a PM to tell you not to worry, I wasn't trying to trade up for Smith or Walker, I was so sure that they were the two guys on your radar. Heh.
  • Hainsworth is probably the BGA - nice to see him go about where he should for the second draft in a row.
  • Didn't Phil Watson barely play wing?
  • Housley is good value if you can properly insulate him. I'd still prefer him as a #5 who gets extra minutes in the top pairs in offensive situations and on the PP, though. Edit - though with a top shutdown pair of Brewer - Johnson, I can totally see why you'd want to add Housley to the mix.


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02-14-2013, 03:04 PM
  #873
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Lol Dreakmur was SO convinced you were moving up for Smith.

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02-14-2013, 03:09 PM
  #874
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sturminator View Post
Not saying that, at all, but there are many ways to skin a cat. I have nothing against reuniting players who performed well together in real life, but it's a "nice to have", not really important, in my opinion. A well-built line where all of the roles are filled is going to be just as good as a reunited real-life line, in my opinion.

In some cases (reuniting the S Line or the GAG line or the Party line, for example), I would actively discourage it, because the line as a whole either underperformed relative to its talent, or one member of the line was simply not an ATD scoringline quality player. Hans and Franz certainly play well together, but I think Henrik could be successful with a wide variety of wingers.
That's true, but it is conjecture vs a known entity.

For instance, we know how Neely and Brett Hull played with Oates at CTR, but it is only an educated guess that they'd play any better or worse if the had ST.L. Grettzky or a Beliveau and likewise with saying Rocket Richard riding wing with Oates, ( a scary thought actually but then again, it is only a thought).

I suppose that is the gist of this whole endeavor I guess.

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02-14-2013, 03:11 PM
  #875
TheDevilMadeMe
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Originally Posted by vecens24 View Post
Lol Dreakmur was SO convinced you were moving up for Smith.
Haha.

Figured he probably thought that. I tried to trade up for Smith last draft because I desperately needed his nastiness next to my midget patrol of Russel Bowie and Martin St Louis, and Dreakmur snagged him the pick beforehand then. I don't have any shrimps to protect this time, though. I see Smith as kind of a faster version of Wayne Cashman, so he was on my radar.

Edit: I guess me asking Dreakmur via PM about a week ago if Smith legitimately played both wings probably had something to do with it too Seriously though, Smith was on my radar, but I was far from decided at that point.

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