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10-13-1. "A bunch of donkeys on skates"

View Poll Results: What should the Caps do?
Tank and trade UFA's 1 20.00%
Tank and re-tool 4 80.00%
Trade futures to right the ship 0 0%
Stand pat, hoping they pull it together. 0 0%
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Old
02-18-2013, 01:21 PM
  #676
Atlas
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Green is nothing special now. He's not the player he was 4 years ago. I'm ready to see that salary go to a star player.

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02-18-2013, 02:55 PM
  #677
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Green is nothing special now. He's not the player he was 4 years ago. I'm ready to see that salary go to a star player.
Just curious but what to you feel the current Green is worth salary wise?

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02-18-2013, 03:09 PM
  #678
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i think the idea that green is nothing special is purely ludicrous. it was plain to see the difference between how the caps move the puck with green and how they do with carlson and kuntradek. its light years better with green.

the difference in the caps ability to get the puck out of their end, keep it in the offensive end and transition the puck from defennse to offense was wildly lacking last night and that was largely the fact that green was missing.

its not that carlson or kundratek are bad at that responsibility. its that green is dominant in that role and superior to other good puck moving defensemen. in other words, he's something special.

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02-18-2013, 03:31 PM
  #679
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Just curious but what to you feel the current Green is worth salary wise?

It's hard to say when Wideman gets a contract like he did. Green certainly gives more for the money than some other NHL defensemen. But still we lose. The biggest split on this board comes between fans who only want the Caps to win the Cup (like me) and fans who are satisfied by something else (I don't mean you necessarily).

Green was heralded as a #1 D man for a Stanley Cup level team. He is far from that. Of course, those guys are hard to get. George has had 15 years to get one and has failed.

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02-18-2013, 03:43 PM
  #680
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Let me put it this way...if the current Green played 3-4 years ago, we might have been in the SC finals. This Green is special; he is not the point per game guy he was a few years ago because; A)it's not the same team, and B) he is more defensively responsible. I am not talking about the injured Green from the last 2 years, but rather this year's version.

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Old
02-18-2013, 04:52 PM
  #681
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It's hard to say when Wideman gets a contract like he did. Green certainly gives more for the money than some other NHL defensemen.
But that is the rub. Wideman got 5 years at $5.25 mil per and Green got 3 years at a tad over $6 mil per. Would you have rather saved ~$800k and given Wideman Green's 26:33 per game?

I see Green, outside of maybe his inability to stay healthy, as way down the list of Caps' issues personally.

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02-18-2013, 04:58 PM
  #682
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Just curious but what to you feel the current Green is worth salary wise?
The guy who plays the first quarter of the season, gets hurt, and possibly comes back at 70% if we make the playoffs isn't worth a contract.

That cap hit and contract slot needs to go to someone else.

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Old
02-18-2013, 06:15 PM
  #683
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But that is the rub. Wideman got 5 years at $5.25 mil per and Green got 3 years at a tad over $6 mil per. Would you have rather saved ~$800k and given Wideman Green's 26:33 per game?

I see Green, outside of maybe his inability to stay healthy, as way down the list of Caps' issues personally.

But another rub is that Green just isn't good enough. He's not a true #1D. Maybe he never was though I definitely loved his skill a few years ago. He was never good defensively but he was a very dangerous in the offensive zone.

Wideman was and is actually a harm to any NHL team. My head nearly exploded when CGY signed him at all--to say nothing of the $.

The bottom line: the Caps need a true #1D. A guy that will make the whole team better all over the ice. Not a guy like Green (I don't hate him) who the players have to worry about coughing up the puck and getting broken to pieces against the glass.

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02-18-2013, 06:36 PM
  #684
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The bottom line: the Caps need a true #1D. A guy that will make the whole team better all over the ice. who the players have to worry about coughing up the puck and getting broken to pieces against the glass.
There's yet another rub.. Guys like that don't fit McPhee's vision of NHL defenseman..

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02-18-2013, 06:54 PM
  #685
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There's yet another rub.. Guys like that don't fit McPhee's vision of NHL defenseman..
Plus there are maybe 5 guys in the league who fit that description...

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02-18-2013, 06:55 PM
  #686
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Originally Posted by Millhaus View Post
But that is the rub. Wideman got 5 years at $5.25 mil per and Green got 3 years at a tad over $6 mil per. Would you have rather saved ~$800k and given Wideman Green's 26:33 per game?

I see Green, outside of maybe his inability to stay healthy, as way down the list of Caps' issues personally.

I agree with the bolded. I'm not going to cover up Green's warts or say he's a top-10 D-man in the league or anything crazy, but he's been far and away the best D-man on the team this year. The D-zone breakout without him last night was appalling. I guess I just don't get how some can look at the team as currently constructed and land on Green as the problem (or even a primary problem). Not to mention he only has a three year contract, not some front-loaded monstrosity.

If we're talking problems, even on the D, how about this one:

The team only dressed six D-men last night, and these four guys were ALL included:

1.) Schultz
2.) Poti
3.) Erskine
4.) Kundratek


How about the fact that one of the top-6 forwards (Wolski) is the definition of a black hole unless he gets the puck in the slot with a chance for a shot. Then he generally just misses the net.

How about the fact that GMGM has accumulated four potential top-4 D-men (Alzner, Carlson, Green and Orlov) and three of them prefer or play exclusively on the right side.

Or the fact that the team has 150% percent of Greens supposedly terrible salary tied up in Hamrlik (benched), Poti (usually benched), and Schultz (should be benched).


Look, you can spice it up with all of the theatrics you want, but the fact is that we're all posting on a message board about the Capitals, following GDTs and speculating about the team. We all want the Capitals to win the Cup. If you think you want them to win more than anyone else, I don't know what to tell you. The fact that I think the team is poorly constructed, with no real strengths and a few glaring weaknesses, doesn't mean i don't want them to win it all.

Sorry for the rambling post that's all over. I guess what I'm saying is, IMO, the team has major structural issues and no real identity. I'm not sure how picking one of the few things that has been a positive (Green's play this year), is conducive towards correcting or improving anything. But just because I've been impressed with Green's play doesn't mean I expect less from the team or I'm going to be happy with a team that wins a few games before pulling out the 10 seed in the East (or a first or second or third or fourth (HAH) round exit). If you disagree with my assessment, I respect that... just how I feel about the situation, and how Green fits into it.

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Old
02-18-2013, 07:19 PM
  #687
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Originally Posted by DCRedhawk21 View Post
Look, you can spice it up with all of the theatrics you want, but the fact is that we're all posting on a message board about the Capitals, following GDTs and speculating about the team. We all want the Capitals to win the Cup. If you think you want them to win more than anyone else, I don't know what to tell you.

I think more than that. I think Ted, George, and too many Capitals fans are afflicted by an inferiority complex. It has consumed the franchise. As an example, the Caps had a chance to beat the Rags in the playoffs last year. We got a PP in the 3rd Period in the last game (we were down a goal). This was the most crucial PP of the year, crucial even for the careers of the star players. What happened? It was one of the most embarrassing power plays I have ever seen. We were so nervous that we couldn't get the puck out of our D zone. It was a defining moment. There have been so many of these defining moments over the last 30 years that the organization now reeks of failure.

The Caps need a major cultural change. They need to bring in a GM who has had success in the league, i.e., has won Cups either as a player or as a GM. Losing cannot be tolerated. Laughable PP's in the playoffs cannot be accepted. Excuses like, "we had to wait on the runway so we were tired" are unacceptable. When enough fans figure this out, perhaps, the ownership will take action.

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Old
02-18-2013, 07:37 PM
  #688
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Originally Posted by Atlas View Post
I think more than that. I think Ted, George, and too many Capitals fans are afflicted by an inferiority complex. It has consumed the franchise. As an example, the Caps had a chance to beat the Rags in the playoffs last year. We got a PP in the 3rd Period in the last game (we were down a goal). This was the most crucial PP of the year, crucial even for the careers of the star players. What happened? It was one of the most embarrassing power plays I have ever seen. We were so nervous that we couldn't get the puck out of our D zone. It was a defining moment. There have been so many of these defining moments over the last 30 years that the organization now reeks of failure.

The Caps need a major cultural change. They need to bring in a GM who has had success in the league, i.e., has won Cups either as a player or as a GM. Losing cannot be tolerated. Laughable PP's in the playoffs cannot be accepted. Excuses like, "we had to wait on the runway so we were tired" are unacceptable. When enough fans figure this out, perhaps, the ownership will take action.

Hey, don't get me wrong... I agree with you on this completely, my biggest gripe with the team is that it hasn't been built with any particular vision or desired identity. My point was that singling out Green is like complaining about the views from the corner office of a building when the foundation is rotting and the next gust of wind could blow the structure over. In short, and you're point above seems to concur, is that we need to look deeper than that.

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02-18-2013, 07:47 PM
  #689
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Originally Posted by DCRedhawk21 View Post
Hey, don't get me wrong... I agree with you on this completely, my biggest gripe with the team is that it hasn't been built with any particular vision or desired identity. My point was that singling out Green is like complaining about the views from the corner office of a building when the foundation is rotting and the next gust of wind could blow the structure over. In short, and you're point above seems to concur, is that we need to look deeper than that.

Yeah, I don't mean to pick on Green especially. It's the team chemistry that I am complaining about. Green is just one of many players I'd trade.

I probably appear more upset than I actually am. The Ravens just won so I'm happy for a few years.

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02-18-2013, 07:53 PM
  #690
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Green is so underrated here. Yeah, he's probably not going to put up 70+ points again. If he were playing solid defense and scoring 75 points per year he would be worth Ovechkin's contract. If he gets traded, there will be even more games like last night's and even fewer wins. He's also never going to be Chris Pronger, but Alzner-Green is a great first pairing.

That said, if he has another groin injury and it's of any significance they need ship him out for whatever they can get in the off-season. If that surgery didn't fix his issues, he's essentially done. The injuries are probably half the fault of the organization, but his condition is what is now.

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02-18-2013, 07:53 PM
  #691
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Wow that PP late vs the Rags, short of a shortie or 2, that may have been the ugliest PP I have ever witnessed.

IIRC, Semin was holding the puck in the center dot at one point, doing nothing. That may have been right afterward the PP though. I had never seen a player standing in the center ice dot with the puck doing nothing.

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02-18-2013, 07:58 PM
  #692
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Wow that PP late vs the Rags, short of a shortie or 2, that may have been the ugliest PP I have ever witnessed.

IIRC, Semin was holding the puck in the center dot at one point, doing nothing. That may have been right afterward the PP though. I had never seen a player standing in the center ice dot with the puck doing nothing.

They just folded. They quit. Everything Dale doesn't stand for. They were great against the B's, though. There's intelligent life in there someplace.

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02-18-2013, 08:01 PM
  #693
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Green is entirely replaceable if the D is retooled properly (see Jersey, New and their lack of any individual Mike Green caliber defenseman). Which means at least 2 more NHL caliber defensemen, both at least second pairing two way level.

Islanders fans seemed receptive to something like MacDonald + Okposo (+ maybe something little on top), I think combined with clearing salary, the tank and the UFA class a move like that could be great for us

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02-19-2013, 05:24 AM
  #694
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Here's the trouble. Like getting rid of Semin, talent doesn't just waltz in here. We can talk all we want about replacing players, but last I checked they have to sign guys to do it. Greens trade value isn't high. I think he's the least of the worries, but what do I know.

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02-19-2013, 09:38 AM
  #695
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Thanks to Langway for updating the thread title....I was unavailable for the last day +. I see we now have a "tank or NO tank" thread.

None of that matters unless George is canned.

FIRE GEORGE

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02-19-2013, 09:59 AM
  #696
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How anyone can say the solution is to trade Green after watching how godawful the Caps were on the breakout without him is beyond me.

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02-19-2013, 10:14 AM
  #697
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How anyone can say the solution is to trade Green after watching how godawful the Caps were on the breakout without him is beyond me.
Because we're left watching the godawful breakout quite often. I'm not a proponent of trading Green, but he's never healthy and I can understand the willingness from some to trade him.

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02-19-2013, 10:38 AM
  #698
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How anyone can say the solution is to trade Green after watching how godawful the Caps were on the breakout without him is beyond me.
That's the problem w this team in a nutshell for me. Rely on a players specific gift to accomplish what any team working together should be expected to do regardless of who's on the ice. The Caps don't have a functioning teamwork concept because they've just relied on individual skill to get the job done for years. Now that the individual skill level is dwindling they are totally clueless. It's the same as a smart student w poor habits hitting the wall when they get to the highest level courses.

Culture change needed.

And that's gonna have to involve moving some of the "Young Guns" core. It's also gonna mean sticking w the same coach for several years. Not sure if George is the right guy, or Oates for that matter. George has only has himself to blame but that would be a tough bit of luck for Oates since he would have never really had a shot.

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02-19-2013, 10:41 AM
  #699
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How anyone can say the solution is to trade Green after watching how godawful the Caps were on the breakout without him is beyond me.
Because that only reinforces the fact that Green is nothing more than a band-aid on that breakout? A band-aid that is getting quite worn down?

It's like you people think breakouts didn't exist before Mike Green was a thing.

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02-19-2013, 10:46 AM
  #700
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Because that only reinforces the fact that Green is nothing more than a band-aid on that breakout? A band-aid that is getting quite worn down?

It's like you people think breakouts didn't exist before Mike Green was a thing
.
Wait---they did? Are you sure?

I always saw people just skate the puck up the ice and dump it in? Whats this outlet pass you speak of?

Carlson *should* be able to do it. Same with Kundratek....hell, he did it in hershey? Even Poti should be doing it.

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