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02-07-2013, 09:44 PM
  #76
MrBurgundy
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You see Bylsma doing that? I kind of figure he's the Craig Adams of the defense.
I have no idea, but Bortuzzo is also playing the way Bylsma likes to see his defenseman play... I bet he's so conflicted. Do I play the vet who I know I can rely on, or do I play the young guy who I'll bench at a moment's notice, but can play my favorite style of hockey?

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02-07-2013, 09:45 PM
  #77
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You see Bylsma doing that? I kind of figure he's the Craig Adams of the defense.
where do you get that? It took a lot longer than it should have for him to solidify his spot over Lovejoy, and even then he lost it again in their first playoff run as the 6/7. And then last year Engo played, but his minutes were severely cut. I really don't get the impression that Bylsma feels all that confident in Engelland; certainly not overly so like an Adams.

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02-07-2013, 09:48 PM
  #78
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I'm all for taking out Engelland. I think he's had more than his fair share of trouble handling the puck.

Regardless, I think it's ****ing nuts if Nisky doesn't get back into the top 4. He and Letang made a really nice pairing.
For the first two games.... they suffered as much as the third pairing in the next two and then Nisky got hurt. I really like Niskanen but he is becoming the most overrated player on this forum.

But obviously I agree that when Nisky comes back, the player to sit is Engelland as Bortuzzo has pretty much replaced his physical edge and is a better hockey player.

My comments about Niskanen being a trade pawn is that he isn't needed if the other 6 play like this, whereas he would be our best trade chip to get a real top6 upgrade.

Fact is that since he went down, we have played better D than we have since forever, and that's a huge reason why we're on a 5 game win streak.

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02-07-2013, 09:50 PM
  #79
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
For the first two games.... they suffered as much as the third pairing in the next two and then Nisky got hurt. I really like Niskanen but he is becoming the most overrated player on this forum.

But obviously I agree that when Nisky comes back, the player to sit is Engelland as Bortuzzo has pretty much replaced his physical edge and is a better hockey player.

My comments about Niskanen being a trade pawn is that he isn't needed if the other 6 play like this, whereas he would be our best trade chip to get a real top6 upgrade.

Fact is that since he went down, we have played better D than we have since forever, and that's a huge reason why we're on a 5 game win streak.
I think Niskanen is on the trade block sooner than later anyway with Dumoulin down in WBS. He's going to be NHL ready soon too, and you're going to have to find a spot for him if that's the case. I'd think he has a shot of making the team next season.

Despres - Letang
Orpik - Martin
Dumoulin - Bortuzzo
Engelland

That's 4 out of our 6 defensemen that are over 6'4" 210lbs

Then they look to move Martin sometime before his contract is up if Morrow shows he can play at an NHL level. That would easily make our defense the most physical I can ever recall seeing it. They also would have every single one of their defenseman capable of joining the rush as well as capable of getting back on defense.

Then the year after we will probably have Harrington competing for a roster spot which may make Orpik expendable... who knows. That's not even factoring into the equation guys like Pouliot, Maatta, Samuelsson, etc.


Last edited by MrBurgundy: 02-07-2013 at 09:58 PM.
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02-07-2013, 09:51 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
For the first two games.... they suffered as much as the third pairing in the next two and then Nisky got hurt. I really like Niskanen but he is becoming the most overrated player on this forum.

But obviously I agree that when Nisky comes back, the player to sit is Engelland as Bortuzzo has pretty much replaced his physical edge and is a better hockey player.

My comments about Niskanen being a trade pawn is that he isn't needed if the other 6 play like this, whereas he would be our best trade chip to get a real top6 upgrade.

Fact is that since he went down, we have played better D than we have since forever, and that's a huge reason why we're on a 5 game win streak.
the problem with trading him is that it makes us 1 injury away from Dylan Reese being in the line-up. If we trade Niskanen (or any roster d-man) we will follow it up with a vet d-man pickup. No doubt in my mind.

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02-07-2013, 09:52 PM
  #81
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It's a tough question, but I don't think they'll sit Engelland. He leads the D in +/- (Bortuzzo is tied, but I give DE the edge on more games played), and he has 12 blocks. He's no Bobby Orr with the puck, to be sure, but he is a hard hitting, very solid defenseman. I struggle to justify yanking him from the lineup.

I think Bortuzzo sits, although he's been playing fine. He's had a few brain farts in his own zone that have led to chances the other way. I think there are times where he holds the puck too long, and ends up getting into a bit of a pickle. He's been good for what they've asked of him, but I think he sits.

It is a really good problem to have, though.

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02-07-2013, 10:00 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by Ogrezilla View Post
the problem with trading him is that it makes us 1 injury away from Dylan Reese being in the line-up. If we trade Niskanen (or any roster d-man) we will follow it up with a vet d-man pickup. No doubt in my mind.
That's exactly what I have argued and opined in favor off since before the season began .
Niskanen is a good alround player who addresses no fundamental needs for us, nor does he add anything we don't already have. Adding Despres and Bortuzzo to the team on the other hand showed us that we have been missing the components they bring.
Niskanen's value will be higher to a team where he does add something extra. That's the very definition of being an optimal trade pawn.

Again, we are not going to make any impact trades before the deadline or thereabout. Far too many teams who don't know if they are in or out to have any clear ideas about the market.

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02-07-2013, 10:03 PM
  #83
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
That's exactly what I have argued and opined in favor off since before the season began .
Niskanen is a good alround player who addresses no fundamental needs for us, nor does he add anything we don't already have. Adding Despres and Bortuzzo to the team on the other hand showed us that we have been missing the components they bring.
Niskanen's value will be higher to a team where he does add something extra. That's the very definition of being an optimal trade pawn.

Again, we are not going to make any impact trades before the deadline or thereabout. Far too many teams who don't know if they are in or out to have any clear ideas about the market.
I agree. Like I said, Niskanen is going to be on his way out of town sooner than later anyway. We might as sell high right now, and then bring in a veteran defender for the playoffs that will be a FA at seasons end.

Orpik - Martin
Despres - Letang
X - Bortuzzo
Engelland

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02-07-2013, 10:25 PM
  #84
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
I agree. Like I said, Niskanen is going to be on his way out of town sooner than later anyway. We might as sell high right now, and then bring in a veteran defender for the playoffs that will be a FA at seasons end.

Orpik - Martin
Despres - Letang
X - Bortuzzo
Engelland
The X will probably be Mark Eaton.

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02-07-2013, 10:26 PM
  #85
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Engelland has done NOTHING to merit sitting out at all. It's a nice problem to have, but I will maintain that until the defense implodes we should stick with what's working.

Last spring should still be fresh in their minds. This thing can unravel in a hurry. We should not change anything right now.

Besides, Engelland and Bortuzzo are what we need more of...stabilizing presence.

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02-07-2013, 10:28 PM
  #86
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Originally Posted by SprootsMasterFlex View Post
The X will probably be Mark Eaton.
Eh, I dunno. Shero could easily use a draft pick to get a 5-6 defenseman. Thats how he got Gill.

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02-07-2013, 10:29 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by tender rip View Post
for the first two games.... They suffered as much as the third pairing in the next two and then nisky got hurt. I really like niskanen but he is becoming the most overrated player on this forum.

But obviously i agree that when nisky comes back, the player to sit is engelland as bortuzzo has pretty much replaced his physical edge and is a better hockey player.

My comments about niskanen being a trade pawn is that he isn't needed if the other 6 play like this, whereas he would be our best trade chip to get a real top6 upgrade.

fact is that since he went down, we have played better d than we have since forever, and that's a huge reason why we're on a 5 game win streak.
this

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02-07-2013, 10:30 PM
  #88
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Originally Posted by Jag68Sid87 View Post
Engelland has done NOTHING to merit sitting out at all. It's a nice problem to have, but I will maintain that until the defense implodes we should stick with what's working.

Last spring should still be fresh in their minds. This thing can unravel in a hurry. We should not change anything right now.

Besides, Engelland and Bortuzzo are what we need more of...stabilizing presence.
Not since he got Bortuzzo for a partner.

Before then was a different story.

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02-07-2013, 10:56 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
You see Bylsma doing that? I kind of figure he's the Craig Adams of the defense.
Agreed. Nothing against Engelland. But Bortuzzo and Despres need to be in there every night the way they've been playing. Our D is just so much more imposing in so many ways with those two in. If I had it my way, Niskanen would be the 7th because it's what this team needs, but with Bylsma, Bortuzzo and Despres will be the ones losing time.

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02-07-2013, 11:22 PM
  #90
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
For the first two games.... they suffered as much as the third pairing in the next two and then Nisky got hurt. I really like Niskanen but he is becoming the most overrated player on this forum.

But obviously I agree that when Nisky comes back, the player to sit is Engelland as Bortuzzo has pretty much replaced his physical edge and is a better hockey player.
There's a couple of big problems with this line of thinking, or what Mr. Burgundy posted with that proposed line-up (in addition to what Jags said about there being no merit for him being removed -- Exhibit A his play against Ovie tonight):

1) Losing Engo makes this team softer, less scary to play against, and less safe for our stars who Engo protects. You would see more teams taking shots at these guys and we would be easier to play against. I don't want to see this happen.

2) If we are going to trade one of Orpik/Martin in the summer (very likely), Engo will be part of our group going forward. If this is the case, I don't like the idea of having a guy who would be a big part of our team next season sitting in the pressbox for the rest of this one. If Engo is part of our group going forward (which he should be, IMO), then I think we need him to play and would be deserving of such.


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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Not since he got Bortuzzo for a partner.

Before then was a different story.
If you're referring to the fact that Engo may not have been quit as good the last couple of games with Bort, that's because he was suddenly moved to the left side. Niskanen is a rare bird in the sense that he's a righty Dman who prefers the left side. For a lot of other guys, Letang included, that is a hard switch to make. Now, we (and Engo) may have to endure that, but if that is the case, we at least need to give him some time to get comfortable in that position.


But at the end of the day, I really think that the guy who Niskanen is competing with for a job (or vice-versa) is Despres, not Engo. They both play on the left side, and they both bring an offensive element. And while Despres is BIG, he is not intimidating like Engelland is. If we really feel like Despres is ready to play full time in the NHL and in the playoffs, I'd rather trade out Niskanen/Martin now rather than lose Engo if he is going to be part of this team longer term. (Don't forget, we could always send down Despres if we wanted to play Nisky and call him up anytime in the event of injury/trade/etc.)

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02-08-2013, 01:40 AM
  #91
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
1) Losing Engo makes this team softer, less scary to play against, and less safe for our stars who Engo protects. You would see more teams taking shots at these guys and we would be easier to play against. I don't want to see this happen.
I am not talking about 'losing' Engelland. I am saying that when we have all 7 ready (with Reese back down), I would likely sit Engelland.
We need to keep giving Bortuzzo and Despres icetime with an eye to April. Engelland we know what we are getting, and with Niskanen it could well be beneficial to show case him in order to increase his trade value.
As for being easier to play.... we are not in Engelland's first days up anymore, and while he is a hard nosed D-man for sure, he is now paying much more attention to being an NHL defender than he is to being an enforcer. Good for him (this is why he will make more money than he ever dreamed of when he becomes an UFA). If Bortuzzo and Despres are playing over Engelland we lose very little in the 'tough to play' department, because their size alone is proving such a handful for opponents. Niskanen.... some. Martin, sure he isn't tough, but he is indispensable to this defense for now.

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2) If we are going to trade one of Orpik/Martin in the summer (very likely)
I don't see that as likely at all except for humongous development fro the kids. Both are under contract and clearly our first pairing ES and on the PK. If we are successful with them in the post-season, any bid for either would have to knock Shero's socks off to deal them.

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Engo will be part of our group going forward.
He definitely could be, but if they aren't on the same pairing, I think he will be made expendable by Bortuzzo, and as he is clearly the lesser hockey player among our group. He could be a valuable trade pawn with one year remaining before going UFA also. At that point he won't be retained anyway, because he won't be cheap anymore.

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If this is the case, I don't like the idea of having a guy who would be a big part of our team next season sitting in the pressbox for the rest of this one.
Again, just because it would be opportune to have him sit or at least be part of a rotation for a seat until the deadline, that doesn't mean sitting the rest of the season out. Come on now.

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If Engo is part of our group going forward (which he should be, IMO), then I think we need him to play and would be deserving of such.
Deserve has nothing to do with it. Your argument about having a big role going forward is every bit as applicable to Bortuzzo and Despres, and none of the others 'deserve' to sit because of performances. It is simply about what is more opportune/what makes us better as a team.

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02-08-2013, 01:53 AM
  #92
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Not since he got Bortuzzo for a partner.

Before then was a different story.
He's been playing his off side. I have never seen a poster cherry pick as much as you do about anything.

One more game of the penguins pp being good and you will be saying he's a better pp guy than Letang.

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02-08-2013, 01:57 AM
  #93
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
I am not talking about 'losing' Engelland. I am saying that when we have all 7 ready (with Reese back down), I would likely sit Engelland.
We need to keep giving Bortuzzo and Despres icetime with an eye to April. Engelland we know what we are getting, and with Niskanen it could well be beneficial to show case him in order to increase his trade value.
As for being easier to play.... we are not in Engelland's first days up anymore, and while he is a hard nosed D-man for sure, he is now paying much more attention to being an NHL defender than he is to being an enforcer. Good for him (this is why he will make more money than he ever dreamed of when he becomes an UFA). If Bortuzzo and Despres are playing over Engelland we lose very little in the 'tough to play' department, because their size alone is proving such a handful for opponents. Niskanen.... some. Martin, sure he isn't tough, but he is indispensable to this defense for now.



I don't see that as likely at all except for humongous development fro the kids. Both are under contract and clearly our first pairing ES and on the PK. If we are successful with them in the post-season, any bid for either would have to knock Shero's socks off to deal them.



He definitely could be, but if they aren't on the same pairing, I think he will be made expendable by Bortuzzo, and as he is clearly the lesser hockey player among our group. He could be a valuable trade pawn with one year remaining before going UFA also. At that point he won't be retained anyway, because he won't be cheap anymore.

You do realize that the Cap is going to come down $6million+ in the summer, and in addition to re-signing some support players this year and core players the year after, we HAVE TO move out some big salary. With Martin playing the way he is, and given that he's making the most money, I think sending him out and getting a nice return in the summertime would be the smartest move we could make (except, arguably trading Orpik instead). We're going to have to move out one of those 2 in a deal to get a good young winger or other good assets. Orpik and Martin's values will sharply decline the closer we get to UFA, and we can't afford to keep them both. (And no, letting Cooke + Dupuis + Kennedy walk will not give us enough cap space to go after a Perry Iginla, it will decrease our depth, and it won't maximize the Orpik/Martin assets in trade)


I totally understand your points and motivation, but I still do not want to sit Engo for the vast majority of the season and playoffs. I'd rather dress 7 Dmen and have Engo be the swing-man that plays as the 12th forward in place of Adams. And no, I don't think he's expendible by Bortuzzo at all. Orpik will likely be gone in a year, and will be more expensive than Engo. Engo may get a salary bump in the $1.5 to $2million range, but that will still be half or less of what Orpik makes. Engo is younger and will only get better. He's not Brooks, but with Despres/Dumoulin/Harrington and others, Engo will fit perfectly with one of those guys on the right side, along with Letang and Bortuzzo.


Do we have a deal?

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02-08-2013, 02:01 AM
  #94
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He's been playing his off side. I have never seen a poster cherry pick as much as you do about anything.
Both you and jmelm are getting this wrong.

KIRK said that Engelland has done nothing to deserve sitting since getting Bortuzzo as his partner. Ie. the very games he has been playing his offside that pairing has looked very good.


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02-08-2013, 02:09 AM
  #95
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You do realize that the Cap is going to come down $6million+ in the summer, and in addition to re-signing some support players this year and core players the year after, we HAVE TO move out some big salary.
We are currently 10 million under the cap, and not one single significant player on our team needs a new contract next season. We have to sign Geno and Letang, sure, but that is for 14/15.
If Martin/Orpik are successful as a pair in the post-season, I guarantee that this is not where we will be saving.

Rather, we will let guys like Cooke, Dupuis and/or Kennedy go if they ask for too much and instead insert Jeffrey, Bennett, Tangradi, Boychuck etc. And there is also room to retain that top6 forward we are hopefully adding this season.

Now, if the cap does not increase for 14/15.... that is a different matter entirely, but then our kids on D will have had one more year to become solutions. I am not at all worried about the cap for next season. That's the upside to Shero getting nothing done last Summer .

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With Martin playing the way he is, and given that he's making the most money, I think sending him out and getting a nice rieturn in the summertime would be the smartest move we could make (except, arguably trading Orpik instead).
Again, you are one Summer early with this.

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Do we have a deal?
No .


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02-08-2013, 02:10 AM
  #96
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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Both you and jmelm are getting this wrong.

KIRK said that Engelland had done nothing to deserve sitting since getting Bortuzzo as his partner. Ie. the very games he has been playing his offside that pairing has looked very good.
Kirk is always the guy that tries to be the one on the other side of the fence no matter what. Give him some time. He has to be different than everyone else even when logic gets in the way. He already started with his passive agressive **** with Martin being better on the power play than Letang instead of the fact Crosby, Malkin and Kunitz finally didn't look like ****. Him calling people yinzers for "hating on Martin for not being I believe it was Samulsson". It goes on and on. When in reality everyone hated Martin last year because he was AWFUL in every facet of the game. You don't have to read many of his posts to see it coming. Just like how Letang isn't a number 1 dman in the NHL lmao.

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02-08-2013, 02:23 AM
  #97
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lots of violin
...just saying that in this case you called him a cherry picker because you misunderstood an otherwise simple sentence .

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02-08-2013, 05:14 AM
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I don't buy the notion that Bortuzzo could be a liability come playoff time, any more than the next guy. He may be inexperienced but he's 24, physically mature, with over 200 games in the AHL under his belt. With the style he plays, getting third pairing minutes, he'll be just fine.

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02-08-2013, 09:26 AM
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I think it's time to flip Niskanen. I think this team takes a minor step back right now, but will be better for allowing Despres and Bortuzzo to continue to play.

As far as trade pieces go, I'd use Niskanen, Kennedy, Tangradi, Jeffrey, one or two of our defensive prospects, and our picks to go out and find a long term solution to the wing problem.


I personally think Bortuzzo has been good, but he has some room to grow. He really needs to work on his coordination, and he could still stand to get stronger. I do think, however, he is ready to stay up here and continue to mature.

I personally think Despres has been phenomenal. He has had some lapses in judgement, but I think that decision making will come when he gets accustomed to the speed. I think the play a couple games ago where he fired the puck over the glass in the defensive zone is what I'm talking about. He had a ton of time to lift his head up and take a look. He rather kept his head down and just fired the puck over the glass. When his internal clock slows down a bit, I think he'll be a real good defenseman. I think we're slowly seeing him make progress in that department, especially offensively.


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02-08-2013, 09:35 AM
  #100
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I think it's time to flip Niskanen. I think this team takes a minor step back right now, but will be better for allowing Despres and Bortuzzo to continue to play.

As far as trade pieces go, I'd use Niskanen, Kennedy, Tangradi, Jeffrey, one or two of our defensive prospects, and our picks to go out and find a long term solution to the wing problem.


I personally think Bortuzzo has been good, but he has some room to grow. He really needs to work on his coordination, and he could still stand to get stronger. I don't think, however, he is ready to stay up here and continue to mature.

I personally think Despres has been phenomenal. He has had some lapses in judgement, but I think that decision making will come when he gets accustomed to the speed. I think the play a couple games ago where he fired the puck over the glass in the defensive zone is what I'm talking about. He had a ton of time to lift his head up and take a look. He rather kept his head down and just fired the puck over the glass. When his internal clock slows down a bit, I think he'll be a real good defenseman. I think we're slowly seeing him make progress in that department, especially offensively.
Agree with this - assuming Letang's injury isn't a long-term thing.

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