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When Niskanen Heals

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Old
02-08-2013, 09:42 AM
  #101
JTG
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And I mean to say, "I do think..." when talking about Bortuzzo staying up here.

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02-08-2013, 09:49 AM
  #102
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Originally Posted by jmelm View Post
There's a couple of big problems with this line of thinking, or what Mr. Burgundy posted with that proposed line-up (in addition to what Jags said about there being no merit for him being removed -- Exhibit A his play against Ovie tonight):

1) Losing Engo makes this team softer, less scary to play against, and less safe for our stars who Engo protects. You would see more teams taking shots at these guys and we would be easier to play against. I don't want to see this happen.

2) If we are going to trade one of Orpik/Martin in the summer (very likely), Engo will be part of our group going forward. If this is the case, I don't like the idea of having a guy who would be a big part of our team next season sitting in the pressbox for the rest of this one. If Engo is part of our group going forward (which he should be, IMO), then I think we need him to play and would be deserving of such.




If you're referring to the fact that Engo may not have been quit as good the last couple of games with Bort, that's because he was suddenly moved to the left side. Niskanen is a rare bird in the sense that he's a righty Dman who prefers the left side. For a lot of other guys, Letang included, that is a hard switch to make. Now, we (and Engo) may have to endure that, but if that is the case, we at least need to give him some time to get comfortable in that position.


But at the end of the day, I really think that the guy who Niskanen is competing with for a job (or vice-versa) is Despres, not Engo. They both play on the left side, and they both bring an offensive element. And while Despres is BIG, he is not intimidating like Engelland is. If we really feel like Despres is ready to play full time in the NHL and in the playoffs, I'd rather trade out Niskanen/Martin now rather than lose Engo if he is going to be part of this team longer term. (Don't forget, we could always send down Despres if we wanted to play Nisky and call him up anytime in the event of injury/trade/etc.)
No, I was referring to Engo's game going to another level once he got paired with Borts. He was **** before then.

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Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
He's been playing his off side. I have never seen a poster cherry pick as much as you do about anything.

One more game of the penguins pp being good and you will be saying he's a better pp guy than Letang.
I appreciate that the English language can be quite difficult to grasp for some, so I'll try to word it as if I were speaking to a seven year old licking an ice cream cone: Engo blew chunks early in the year. He is playing very well since Borts became his partner. Is THAT easy enough for you to follow?

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Originally Posted by Tender Rip View Post
Both you and jmelm are getting this wrong.

KIRK said that Engelland has done nothing to deserve sitting since getting Bortuzzo as his partner. Ie. the very games he has been playing his offside that pairing has looked very good.
I can confirm that TR has basic inferential skills . . .

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Originally Posted by mgd525 View Post
Kirk is always the guy that tries to be the one on the other side of the fence no matter what. Give him some time. He has to be different than everyone else even when logic gets in the way. He already started with his passive agressive **** with Martin being better on the power play than Letang instead of the fact Crosby, Malkin and Kunitz finally didn't look like ****. Him calling people yinzers for "hating on Martin for not being I believe it was Samulsson". It goes on and on. When in reality everyone hated Martin last year because he was AWFUL in every facet of the game. You don't have to read many of his posts to see it coming. Just like how Letang isn't a number 1 dman in the NHL lmao.
Let me see if I've got this right:

1. I said Martin is better than Letang on the PP according to you, even though I said Martin looked more composed on the PP than Letang but cautioned that it was against a bad Caps PK.

2. I call people 'yinzers' for 'hating on Martin', even though 'yinzer' is not part of my vocabulary and I was a founding member last year of the hate on Martin society (and called regularly for a Martin for Malone swap and to give Despres a chance in Martin's place and add a vet d-man at the deadline).

3. I said Letang isn't a #1 defenseman, even though I never opined in that debate here.

I can't wait until you tell me how I'm also responsible for your failures in life.


Last edited by KIRK: 02-08-2013 at 09:58 AM.
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02-08-2013, 10:12 AM
  #103
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Engelland isn't going anywhere, nor should he. He may not have the skill or pedigree as our other d'men, but looking back to last year, he may be our most consistent. That 3rd pairing is now scary physical, and I doubt that's broken up unless it breaks down. Personally I think Nisky and Martin are both trade pieces.

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02-08-2013, 10:15 AM
  #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I think it's time to flip Niskanen. I think this team takes a minor step back right now, but will be better for allowing Despres and Bortuzzo to continue to play.

As far as trade pieces go, I'd use Niskanen, Kennedy, Tangradi, Jeffrey, one or two of our defensive prospects, and our picks to go out and find a long term solution to the wing problem.


I personally think Bortuzzo has been good, but he has some room to grow. He really needs to work on his coordination, and he could still stand to get stronger. I do think, however, he is ready to stay up here and continue to mature.

I personally think Despres has been phenomenal. He has had some lapses in judgement, but I think that decision making will come when he gets accustomed to the speed. I think the play a couple games ago where he fired the puck over the glass in the defensive zone is what I'm talking about. He had a ton of time to lift his head up and take a look. He rather kept his head down and just fired the puck over the glass. When his internal clock slows down a bit, I think he'll be a real good defenseman. I think we're slowly seeing him make progress in that department, especially offensively.
Definitely agree that it's time to flip Niskanen. In the winger thread there's a voluminous debate over which D prospect to flip, but in reality none of them are even close to being ripe for trade, whereas Niskanen, conversely, couldn't be more ripe for trade. His NHL-testedness makes that so.

Now of course it's an unknown what the market would be for him. I'm sure that he alone won't fetch as much as Goligoski and Whitney did, they of greater offensive upside. So he might have to be paired with another asset or two to bring back what we need.

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02-08-2013, 10:17 AM
  #105
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Definitely agree that it's time to flip Niskanen. In the winger thread there's a voluminous debate over which D prospect to flip, but in reality none of them are even close to being ripe for trade, whereas Niskanen, conversely, couldn't be more ripe for trade. His NHL-testedness makes that so.

Now of course it's an unknown what the market would be for him. I'm sure that he alone won't fetch as much as Goligoski and Whitney did, they of greater offensive upside. So he might have to be paired with another asset or two to bring back what we need.
Maybe TK and Nisky can fetch Stewart?

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02-08-2013, 10:27 AM
  #106
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Definitely agree that it's time to flip Niskanen. In the winger thread there's a voluminous debate over which D prospect to flip, but in reality none of them are even close to being ripe for trade, whereas Niskanen, conversely, couldn't be more ripe for trade. His NHL-testedness makes that so.

Now of course it's an unknown what the market would be for him. I'm sure that he alone won't fetch as much as Goligoski and Whitney did, they of greater offensive upside. So he might have to be paired with another asset or two to bring back what we need.
I do think Niskanen has some unrealized offensive upside. He played well his rookie year, but it has taken him a while to bring the rest of his game up to speed. I think a couple teams would pay a bit for him because he's young, and has turned into a pretty well rounded defenseman. He can man a PP and he's no longer a liability defensively.

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02-08-2013, 10:33 AM
  #107
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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
I do think Niskanen has some unrealized offensive upside. He played well his rookie year, but it has taken him a while to bring the rest of his game up to speed. I think a couple teams would pay a bit for him because he's young, and has turned into a pretty well rounded defenseman. He can man a PP and he's no longer a liability defensively.
IMO, if you went back to the end of Nisky's rookie year and said 'where will he be at in terms of his overall game in his sixth season', I think what you saw from him this year before he got hurt is where you reasonably would have hoped he'd be. He obviously just took a major detour in getting there.

That said, you're right: He's 26, a former 1st round pick, a guy who can give you 20 minutes a night and step up beyond that in spurts, and someone who for a cup contender probably is the perfect 4/5 guy (not saying he's not better than that, just saying how he'd be slotted).

You would have to think that more than a few teams would be interested when he returns.

BUT, here's my question for you (because I've got no feel on this one): What does Niskanen get you alone? What would you need to add, if anything, to address the top six in a deal involving him?

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02-08-2013, 10:40 AM
  #108
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Niskanen for Seto or Kulemin seems fair to me from a pure value standpoint. If you're trying to get a guy like Stewart who has a higher upside and is still a RFA at year's end, you're going to have to add. Whether it be a replacement roster forward+ or a high end D prospect .

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02-08-2013, 10:42 AM
  #109
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Assuming Niskanen as the centerpiece, the only things we could add (that might realistically put a deal over the top) would be draft picks and possibly TK, ET, maybe Kuhn?

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02-08-2013, 10:48 AM
  #110
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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Assuming Niskanen as the centerpiece, the only things we could add (that might realistically put a deal over the top) would be draft picks and possibly TK, ET, maybe Kuhn?
Or Harrington, Maatta, Dumoulin.

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02-08-2013, 10:57 AM
  #111
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Or Harrington, Maatta, Dumoulin.
Yeah or Bennett for that matter, but I wasn't including them because I was thinking of a deal where Niskanen was the clear "centerpiece."

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02-08-2013, 11:08 AM
  #112
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Niskanen for Seto or Kulemin seems fair to me from a pure value standpoint. If you're trying to get a guy like Stewart who has a higher upside and is still a RFA at year's end, you're going to have to add. Whether it be a replacement roster forward+ or a high end D prospect .
Agreed. Niskanen can be the piece or a big piece towards addressing one of the two top six issues.

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Originally Posted by Dupree13 View Post
Yeah or Bennett for that matter, but I wasn't including them because I was thinking of a deal where Niskanen was the clear "centerpiece."
Imagine if you could get Stewart and Kulemin and keep Morrow, Pouliot, Bennett, and one or two of Maatta, Harrington, or Dumoulin in the process.

Geno's line is set for the next four years minimum. Sid is set on RW, and either you re-sign Kunitz when he's up or there's your spot for Bennett. Plus, you've got 3 or 4 of your top defensive prospects to add to a defense that already has Despres and Bortuzzo introduced, Letang as the anchor, and an Orpik-Martin pair. You'd really be well set for the next 4-6 years minimum.

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02-08-2013, 11:17 AM
  #113
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If we are trying to win this year, I'd much rather keep Nisky and add a winger by trading picks. People are saying despres and bortuzzo are playing well so might as well trade Nisky. This isn't the playoffs, we have no clue how a young guy like bortuzzo will perform. And despres has only played 3 games. We've seen other rookies completely struggle come playoff time after playing well during regular season, letang and Gogo are two examples. Bortuzzo plays a diff game than those two, but point is we have no idea how he will perform in the post season. Especially in a shortened season.

I don't think there's anyway the pens trade Nisky. He has experience. And ****, this isn't saying much but the guy was our best dman against Philly last year after he came back from injury, missing the first couple of games that series. Still remember him in that game 5( which is the only game that actually resembled a playoff game ) with 5 or 6 blocked shots. Like I've mentioned before, getting a winger is exciting to talk about, but come playoff time...give me defense.

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02-08-2013, 11:22 AM
  #114
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I'm most hesitant about Martin in the playoffs. But Shero can't break up Orpik/Martin. He kept him and now we'll see if his regular season turnaround translates to the postseason.

We can always add a veteran depth D-man if we're worried about having two rookies in the postseason.

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02-08-2013, 11:26 AM
  #115
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
I'm most hesitant about Martin in the playoffs. But Shero can't break up Orpik/Martin. He kept him and now we'll see if his regular season turnaround translates to the postseason.

We can always add a veteran depth D-man if we're worried about having two rookies in the postseason.
When did I hear this before?

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02-08-2013, 11:35 AM
  #116
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
So, who do you take out for Niskanen? Bortuzzo? **** no. Despres? By April (i.e., with more time), he'll be better than Niskanen.
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Originally Posted by MrBurgundy View Post
Orpik - Martin
Despres - Letang
Niskanen - Bortuzzo
Engelland. Love him and what he brings... but sit him until you trade Niskanen.

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02-08-2013, 11:36 AM
  #117
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Engelland. Love him and what he brings... but sit him until you trade Niskanen.
I can go with that. BUT, methinks Nisky will play with Letang and Despres with Borts.

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02-08-2013, 11:45 AM
  #118
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
IMO, if you went back to the end of Nisky's rookie year and said 'where will he be at in terms of his overall game in his sixth season', I think what you saw from him this year before he got hurt is where you reasonably would have hoped he'd be. He obviously just took a major detour in getting there.

That said, you're right: He's 26, a former 1st round pick, a guy who can give you 20 minutes a night and step up beyond that in spurts, and someone who for a cup contender probably is the perfect 4/5 guy (not saying he's not better than that, just saying how he'd be slotted).

You would have to think that more than a few teams would be interested when he returns.

BUT, here's my question for you (because I've got no feel on this one): What does Niskanen get you alone? What would you need to add, if anything, to address the top six in a deal involving him?
It depends who it is. Niskanen is a puck mover and puck movers fetch a premium in the league. If we're talking about a guy like Setoguchi, people know I think he'd explode here, but in terms of a straight across trade of Niskanen for him, I think Minnesota would have to add. Nothing of great significance, but something.

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02-08-2013, 11:46 AM
  #119
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I can go with that. BUT, methinks Nisky will play with Letang and Despres with Borts.
Regardless of what the pairings are, its a good problem to have. A deal around Niskanen or Despres could be made. They would both be desirable d-men to a lot of teams

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02-08-2013, 11:50 AM
  #120
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Regardless of what the pairings are, its a good problem to have. A deal around Niskanen or Despres could be made. They would both be desirable d-men to a lot of teams
Agree completely. I'd prefer to move Niskanen. Despres isn't there yet, but the upside is better and he's built physically to deal with the playoff beating better (Nisky can be pounded into playing like a guy who hears footsteps sometimes).

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Originally Posted by JTG View Post
It depends who it is. Niskanen is a puck mover and puck movers fetch a premium in the league. If we're talking about a guy like Setoguchi, people know I think he'd explode here, but in terms of a straight across trade of Niskanen for him, I think Minnesota would have to add. Nothing of great significance, but something.
I'd probably rather add to go after Stewart, but it's pretty clear Nisky can be leveraged for a top six player.

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02-08-2013, 12:37 PM
  #121
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You do realize that the Cap is going to come down $6million+ in the summer, and in addition to re-signing some support players this year and core players the year after, we HAVE TO move out some big salary. With Martin playing the way he is, and given that he's making the most money, I think sending him out and getting a nice return in the summertime would be the smartest move we could make (except, arguably trading Orpik instead). We're going to have to move out one of those 2 in a deal to get a good young winger or other good assets. Orpik and Martin's values will sharply decline the closer we get to UFA, and we can't afford to keep them both. (And no, letting Cooke + Dupuis + Kennedy walk will not give us enough cap space to go after a Perry Iginla, it will decrease our depth, and it won't maximize the Orpik/Martin assets in trade)
We don't have to trade anyone. Nor will the cap coming down really affect us with the roster we currently have (other than our ability to go after a top winger). The only 'big' guys to resign are Dupuis. TK and Cooke. Everyone else likely makes under 1m. Sure it adds up, but it's not that hard to deal with.

The year after, we have 40.6m in cap space - and that's assuming the cap doesn't go up by ~4/5m (which it almost certainly will, due to the PA's 5% escalator clause). Cap space isn't really an issue right now. Next year might be tight, but not impossible. And year 3 we have so many expiring contracts that we have tons of options going forward.

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02-08-2013, 12:42 PM
  #122
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I can't wait until you tell me how I'm also responsible for your failures in life.
Clearly it's your fault I didn't get laid lastnight.

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02-08-2013, 01:49 PM
  #123
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Clearly it's your fault I didn't get laid lastnight.
You sound like my wife.

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02-08-2013, 04:00 PM
  #124
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You sound like my wife.
she might have a point...

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02-08-2013, 07:07 PM
  #125
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I can go with that. BUT, methinks Nisky will play with Letang and Despres with Borts.
Either way, I'd sit Engelland.

Also I'd prefer to keep Dumoulin if I can help it. I like the fact that he's yet another big defenseman that has offensive potential (somewhat in the same mold as Despres). Like I said before, Dumoulin will probably be pushing for a spot next season, so Niskanen is going to need moved sooner rather than later no matter what. That would then give us 4 out of our 6 defenseman that are 6'4" and over 210lbs. Also all 4 of those guys have wheels and the ability to join the rush. None of those guys could get pushed around in the playoffs. I can't wait till I see that defense on the ice.

Then Morrow will be up and coming too which may make Martin expendable, and Morrow is a lot more physical than Martin with the ability to help our PP. Ideally in 2 seasons I want our defense to look something like...

Despres - Letang
Orpik - Bortuzzo
Morrow - Dumoulin

That has the potential to be the best top 6 in the league.

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