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Old
02-05-2013, 10:10 AM
  #1
Jopsey
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Our zone entry

Every game I see it more and more now, get passed the red line then dump it in. With the amount of talent we have on paper you would think we would at least be able to carry the puck in. Besides dumping and chasing being extremely boring to watch, we rarely maintain possession after we do it.

Is this what Yeo is preaching? Or is the team still lacking the chemistry to make good zone entry's? Either way something has to change.


Last edited by Jopsey: 02-05-2013 at 10:17 AM.
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02-05-2013, 10:18 AM
  #2
Jarick
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It was completely different last night from the previous game.

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02-05-2013, 11:06 AM
  #3
Randy BoBandy
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It was not better last night as some are saying. Still the same thing. Defenseman have many options open to them but still shoot it up to the forward at the redline for a tip and dump. There are times when dumps are needed for changing lines, but it seems to be that our Dmen choose not rush the puck up given open ice. The forwards are doing the same thing. Instead of dumping the puck and losing possession, why not just regroup and have another go at entering the zone if things got blocked off at their blueline the first time around.

I think this is a consequence of a much larger problem within the players we have on our roster. I have posted on this before in another thread but will again. We lack speed and skill in our top 6. You say oh we have that in bunches, but I would disagree. Look at all the good teams and their top 6 and then ours. We don't have very many players capable of maintaining puck control as well as controlling the pace of play. We need a coast to coast speed guy that can go through the neutral zone and put the opposition on it heals make a quick one two move around the blue line and gain entry, then slow it down and proceed from their when the rest of our slow ass team catches up.

Do you guys ever wonder why other teams simply skate right into our zone on their powerplay while holding onto the puck, hell even at even strength other teams can fly up the neutral zone make a quick move and have open space just inside our blue line to slow things down. Bouchard and Parise are probably our only two forwards capable of nifty stick handling and agile skating while at a high speed. These are attributes necessary for maintaining puck possession while entering the opponents zone. No offense to Koivu but he just gets bottled up at the opposing blueline because he is too slow and not agile enough to make a move.

I'm hoping Zucker can bring this type of a game someday. I like what Suter and Brodin bring to the table in the puck possession aspect but our forwards just aren't built to play that type of hockey. We could really use a big speedy talented player in this draft like Monahan or Nichushkin. I think the Wild need to put more emphasis on skating ability when drafting players. If you can't skate you can't be a dynamic player in this league simple as that. You can say that they have been, but I just don't see it in our forward prospects besides Zucker.

We are pretty one dimensional offensively right now. The only way we gain scoring chances is by getting the puck down low in the offense zone then cycling and getting dirty goals. When is the last time you saw a nice passing play off the rush at even strength result in a goal? We need to dump it so our slower players are able to cycle and create chances. But like in the game against the Ducks when we can't establish the offensive zone time we aren't going to get any chances. Other teams might be able to survive a night like tonight because they have speed and the ability to pounce on turnovers and go the other way making plays off of the rush, we don't.

I was watching the Carolina vs Toronto game yesterday and I was so impressed by Toronto's team speed. They got 20 shots in the first period and were entering the zone with such ease using their speed. That team is full of skilled quick players. Sure they haven't been good of late, but I think a lot of that has to do with their lack of a true number 1 center and stable goaltending. I recommend watching another teams game once and comparing it to the Wilds. You will be amazed at how slow of a game we are forced to play right now.


Last edited by Randy BoBandy: 02-05-2013 at 11:25 AM.
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02-05-2013, 11:15 AM
  #4
Dee Oh Cee
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If you thought last night's game was the same as in Anaheim then I don't know what to tell you.

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02-05-2013, 11:16 AM
  #5
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If those Brodin and PMB posts go in, people would be saying how much better we looked last night.

Seriously we looked a lot better.

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02-05-2013, 11:20 AM
  #6
Dee Oh Cee
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The game (unfortunately) was pretty much over when we let Phoenix score first...everyone saw that ridiculous record they have at home after scoring first. We played a very good game but just didn't get the bounces.

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02-05-2013, 11:24 AM
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Randy BoBandy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
If you thought last night's game was the same as in Anaheim then I don't know what to tell you.
We are not talking about last nights game, that is in the GDT. This thread is for talking about zone entry and how the Wild have been doing in that aspect of the game.

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02-05-2013, 11:57 AM
  #8
Jarick
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Dump and chase is a valid method of attacking the neutral zone trap. Wild also created some turnovers based on Smith's misplay of the puck. But overall dumping the puck against a puck handling goalie and a team playing NZT is not a good recipe for success (see: New Jersey Devils pre-trapezoid).

That said, many, many, many times the Wild carried the puck across the blue line. Much better than Anaheim.

I would rather the team dumps and chases the puck 50 times per game than turn it over in the NZ and defend the whole time.

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02-05-2013, 01:23 PM
  #9
keppel146
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bring it in with some speed! I saw bouchard do that once, and we need to do that more. skate it in, dont dump it every single time

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02-05-2013, 01:40 PM
  #10
Randy BoBandy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
Dump and chase is a valid method of attacking the neutral zone trap. Wild also created some turnovers based on Smith's misplay of the puck. But overall dumping the puck against a puck handling goalie and a team playing NZT is not a good recipe for success (see: New Jersey Devils pre-trapezoid).

That said, many, many, many times the Wild carried the puck across the blue line. Much better than Anaheim.

I would rather the team dumps and chases the puck 50 times per game than turn it over in the NZ and defend the whole time.
Nvm I misinterpreted what Jarick said


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02-05-2013, 01:44 PM
  #11
Dee Oh Cee
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Much better than the Anaheim game is what I'm sure he means.

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02-05-2013, 01:45 PM
  #12
TZM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keppel146 View Post
bring it in with some speed! I saw bouchard do that once, and we need to do that more. skate it in, dont dump it every single time
This. It's a lot harder for the opponent to regroup to defend when there's you have to make decisions quicker.

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02-05-2013, 01:48 PM
  #13
bozak911
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Okay, braniacs... Riddle me this;

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap?

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap AND has a puck handling goalie?

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02-05-2013, 02:25 PM
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Okay, braniacs... Riddle me this;

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap?

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap AND has a puck handling goalie?
We should ask Dallas, Chicago, San Jose, and LA.

They all beat the Coyotes somehow.

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02-05-2013, 02:29 PM
  #15
Jarick
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dee Oh Cee View Post
Much better than the Anaheim game is what I'm sure he means.
Yes, that's what I meant.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Okay, braniacs... Riddle me this;

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap?

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap AND has a puck handling goalie?
Well, if you're Torrey Mitchell, toss it to the goalie, and charge the goalie

I thought it was shrewd for the Wild to set up a little breakout on one side, and then pass D to D and a quick pass to the forward at the far blue line. Kind of bypass the middle. But then you don't have much speed when you enter the zone, and you do that little chip dump behind the D and retrieve.

It's hard to think about. Best I can imagine is to wear down the other team by getting pressure in their end, but you have to do that first. And you need all four lines rolling. But get the other team tired and making mistakes and get their forwards out of rhythm, then try and pepper the goalie. That's what Lemaire teams did.

Trapping teams don't eliminate goal scoring...they just drop the effectiveness of shots and chances. You'll maybe score on 5-7% of shots than 8-10%. So you need as much zone time and shots as you can get, just keep pressuring. Guys make mistakes when they are tired, running around in their end for 90 seconds. We've seen it over and over.

And you've got to play nearly perfect defense. We saw that Phoenix's, what, one shot on goal all period from that turnover resulted in a goal?

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02-05-2013, 02:34 PM
  #16
bozak911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
We should ask Dallas, Chicago, San Jose, and LA.

They all beat the Coyotes somehow.
Which games was Smith in net for? It was LaBarbara for the San Jose game.

The games Dallas won were all in Dallas and one of them wasn't Smith in net.

As for the Chicago game, I watched that game. Chicago beat them the same way Yeo tried to beat them...

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02-05-2013, 02:40 PM
  #17
Jarick
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And Chicago's got just a hair more offensive talent than the Wild. Just a hair.

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02-05-2013, 02:43 PM
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bozak911
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
But then you don't have much speed when you enter the zone, and you do that little chip dump behind the D and retrieve.
...
And you've got to play nearly perfect defense. We saw that Phoenix's, what, one shot on goal all period from that turnover resulted in a goal?
You are spot on. For everyone clamoring against the "dump and chase" that Yeo used during the Phoenix game, that is exactly how you beat a 1-2-2 NZT. Chip the puck passed the D, chase it, take their body, wear them down.

On the flip side, you also can't have #15 and #20 coasting and not clearing a bad bounce.

We didn't see a lot of dump and chase during the Anaheim game, because Boudreau doesn't use a 1-2-2 NZT. Yeo used the appropriate counter measure against a puck possession road game. The problem was that he got entirely out puck possessed.

Bear in mind, that Boudreau also had last change, which meant that Parise-Koivu-Heatley were all shut down, by... his shut down line.

Imagine if more teams used a 1-3-1 defensive system...

/sigh

Anyway... The people that get what I'm saying are also the people that don't even know where their pitchforks are, let alone having them in their hands already.

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02-05-2013, 02:47 PM
  #19
BigT2002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jarick View Post
And Chicago's got just a hair more offensive talent than the Wild. Just a hair.
Understatement post is understated

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02-05-2013, 03:02 PM
  #20
Randy BoBandy
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Every team in the league uses some form of the trap from time to time in every game. There are times when a passive forecheck should be used. When you don't have speed coming through the neutral zone, and when you are trying to pounce on turnovers in the neutral zone. But lets not pretend the Coyotes were only sending in 1 guy all game. They know when to be aggressive too.

Maybe its just our huge roster turnover that hasn't allowed players to understand when another is going to dump it deep. They aren't getting in nearly fast enough to make the dumping behind opponents D effective. Maybe more communication out on the ice is needed. I remember my coaches used to go crazy on us for not talking out on the ice. I'm sure when you have a bunch of new guys mixed with the way most hockey player personalities are we probably aren't the most vocal group at this point. Its almost like you don't want to tell others what to do because you just met them and don't want to offend anyone with your orders.

I don't mean to say there isn't any leaders in the room, but maybe some of the new guys just don't know where they fit in the whole scheme of things and whether or not they should step up and lead. Locker room and personality dynamics can play a huge part in a teams success.

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02-05-2013, 03:42 PM
  #21
Jarick
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I will say the zone entries (is that the new hockey sense / intangibles?) were not good at all for a few games before the Phoenix game. But then I thought they were pretty dang good for that game.

Keep an eye on it in general, like the power play, and if it's an issue in 5-10 games...revisit.

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02-05-2013, 04:16 PM
  #22
TwInS1095
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Patp14 View Post
Much better than Anaheim. Haha good one. That is why we were in there zone for less than 5 minutes the entire game.
Which is why we we had about an 15-6 advantage in scoring chances...but I guess you're opinion is more true than actual stats/facts

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02-05-2013, 05:02 PM
  #23
keppel146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Okay, braniacs... Riddle me this;

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap?

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap AND has a puck handling goalie?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Minnesota View Post
We should ask Dallas, Chicago, San Jose, and LA.

They all beat the Coyotes somehow.
Dont forget Detroit. The wings are good at skating the puck into the offensive zone

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Old
02-05-2013, 10:16 PM
  #24
Northland Wild Man
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bozak911 View Post
Okay, braniacs... Riddle me this;

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap?

How do you beat a team that uses a passive 1-2-2 Neutral Zone trap AND has a puck handling goalie?
Run the goalie.

Maybe not, but I think the way to beat this type of system is with an extremely hard forecheck. Throw it in the corner and mash the defenseman there. Just try to get him to screw up in some way. I think that is why the 4th line was somewhat successful against the Coyotes at least in terms of zone time.

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Old
02-06-2013, 04:48 AM
  #25
Ovechkid08
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This is a very marginal topic to nitpick a coach on but, yes its been a slight adjustment this year. Last year our main success at the beginning of the year was our strong turnovers from the dump and chase. Nick Johnson looked like a star and Brodziak earned a nice contract. Parise has been superb with this style, seriously, best fit player for this team imaginable, but some of the secondary players might need a different style to succeed without line changes. So I definitely approve of a few new looks.

Everyone knows its a whole team goal for the playoffs and a cup opportunity. Bouchard has been about the only guy able to enter the zone realistically through the neutral zone and that needs to change, Cullen did that well at times last year and then he "fell off" in the later half of the season.

Yeo still has plenty of time to explore this playstyle, because when it works, it is incredibly effective and excellent for playoff hockey IMO, but that doesn't mean that he shouldn't make adjustments based on players strengths in play styles between lines. All of our players are strong defensively so why not leave a flying winger on a line, Seto would be perfect for it and let him take the high risk turnover but get the offensive opportunity now and then.

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