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Why will we be different from the Avs?

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Old
06-27-2015, 03:42 PM
  #1
Cannonball0828
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Why will we be different from the Avs?

Please note: I'm simply playing devils advocate here. I love the Sabres moves this weekend and I'm so pumped for this year. However, I just had this thought about how our rosters are pretty similar:

Superstar, top pick center (Eichel, MacKinnon)
RoR
Another superstar, top pick center (Reinhart, Duchene)
Strong, two way forward (Landeskog, Girgensons) - maybe a bit of a stretch
Former top pick defenseman finding his game on a new team (Bogo, EJ)
Up and coming defenseman (Barrie, Risto)
Obtain goalie by trading 1st round pick (Varlamov, Lehner)
Vet forward (Jarome Iginla, Brian Gionta)
McGinn


Just noting the similarity between the two rosters. Why will our season be different from the last years Avs? How about going forward?

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06-27-2015, 03:45 PM
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Beerz
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Maybe our season wont be any better than theirs last year.... But that's a hell of an improvement.

As far as going forward... I expect them to get better...as will we.

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06-27-2015, 03:46 PM
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Evander Kane

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06-27-2015, 03:47 PM
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Cannonball0828
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Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
Maybe our season wont be any better than theirs last year.... But that's a hell of an improvement.

As far as going forward... I expect them to get better...as will we.
That's absolutely fair. I suppose when I hear people talking about up-and-coming teams, I don't see the Avs mentioned a lot after last year. Two years ago everybody thought the arrow was pointing way up, then they got in a bit of a funk. But, one would think that the amount of talent they/we have will ultimately rise to the top.

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06-27-2015, 03:48 PM
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Cannonball0828
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Originally Posted by phosphene View Post
Evander Kane
Now that I think about it, Kane would be a better comparable for the impact that Landeskog has. That could make Girgensons more of an x-factor.

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06-27-2015, 03:52 PM
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First, let me say that going from 54 pts to 90 pts would be incredible, and would likely exceed the expectations of even the most hostile posters--though they'd never admit it. Second, "being Colorado," at least for now, should be enough to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. But, perhaps most importantly, I don't think Colorado has very good depth. I like our supporting cast far more than theirs; in short, I don't think Colorado has very good depth.

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06-27-2015, 03:56 PM
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Cannonball0828
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Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
First, let me say that going from 54 pts to 90 pts would be incredible, and would likely exceed the expectations of even the most hostile posters--though they'd never admit it. Second, "being Colorado," at least for now, should be enough to make the playoffs in the Eastern Conference. But, perhaps most importantly, I don't think Colorado has very good depth. I like our supporting cast far more than theirs; in short, I don't think Colorado has very good depth.
Probably fair, Girgensons, Larsson, Pysyk could all step up and provide more of an impact their depth players had.

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06-27-2015, 03:57 PM
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I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a positive or negative thread. I'd gladly take being in Colorado's position next season.

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06-27-2015, 04:01 PM
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Ya the depth is the difference. The op list was missing Kane, but also McCabe, Pysyk, Larsson.

The Avs didn't have anywhere near that level of secondary support that were competitive quality players.

Even guys like Des and Foligno tilt in our favor. We just guaranteed our top six is respectable to match up against most teams in the league. The bottom six should also be equal to or better than most teams bottom six.

Getting a couple lefty top 4 dmen takes this team to the playoffs.

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06-27-2015, 04:22 PM
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Cannonball0828
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be a positive or negative thread. I'd gladly take being in Colorado's position next season.
Not necessarily good or bad. Just an overall thought. Perhaps an insight for what to expect next year.

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06-27-2015, 04:28 PM
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Tyler Ennis count be a 50-60 point winger for us next season.

Pysyk looks ready to make an impact as well. I'm pretty sure he was more than ready last season.

I doubt our season will be better than Colorado's, considering Landy, Duchene, and Mack are all older.

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06-27-2015, 04:29 PM
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cgf
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Last year's avs were complacent over the summer because of the unbelieveable year before and so played like **** for the first 30 games. EJ, Duchene, Everberg and Tanguay were the only players playing consistently well in that stretch and Duchene was snakebitten while Everberg was meant to be an AHL callup. With Varly battling injuries over that stretch the team lost all confidence and was in the McDavid sweepstakes well into november, and I think December.
After Varly got healthy the team started to turn the season around near that 30 game mark only for EJ to go down for the season at the ASB...At a time where he was leading all Dmen in goals and leaving Guenin-Barrie and Stuart-Redmond as our top 2 pairings. Despite that the team put up 90 points this year with Landeskog-O'Reilly and Barrie playing incredible hockey after EJ went down (MacK to, but his season ended early as well).
Also, on top of the injuries to EJ, MacKinnon and Varlamov, the avs had an unreal amount of injuries to our depth guys which is why there was a point where Cody McCleod was the best option we had to put next to Duchene in the top 6. Our injuries weren't lumbus bad because other than EJ/MacK/Varly it was all depth guys, but that made it even harder for our core guys and lead to a situation where we had to use our top two lines to shelter the 4th line because Cliche and co were so awful.

So it was a very odd year for us with an awful start, our depth was decimated, and we had a few backbreaking injuries at the worst possible times (Varly/EJ/MacK). But despite that all, they rallied, had a very strong second half of the year, and got themselves back into the playoff race til the very end. If Buffalo had a similar season I'd be really excited for my buffalo friends, even though you still wouldn't be back in the playoffs yet.


A year like that, despite all of the adversity we had to deal with; with Murray making one more big move at some point (one that brings in a LHD); and I'd favor you guys to become the biggest threat out of the east in a few more years (even over the two Florida teams that I expect to be your biggest competition at that point). And I don't even think Kane will ever "figure it out." But fortunately with Eichel/ROR/Girgs/Samson, Ennis/Larsson/Foligno/McGinn, and Fasching/Bailey/Baptiste, he doesn't have to. If Kane remains a one man third line with Foligno and Larsson helping him get the puck back, you'll still become a wonderful team to watch with a monstrous top 9.

Especially because I love the way your D is set up, even after losing Zads. Being able to have Risto, Bogo and Pysser anchoring each pairing will make it a lot easier to round out the defense with guys who are solid compliments to their righty studs. I see you guys having a very LA type D set up in a few years where there's no "true" #2 partnering your franchise RHD, but you've surrounded him with 4 really good middle pairing guys, one of whom compliments Risto well stylistically and so is effective on that top pairing while the other 3 give you a great 2nd pairing and a very strong 3rd pairing you can trust.

You guys are going to be a monster for the rest of the east to deal with during the playoffs in time.


Last edited by cgf: 06-27-2015 at 04:38 PM.
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06-27-2015, 04:32 PM
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball0828 View Post
Please note: I'm simply playing devils advocate here. I love the Sabres moves this weekend and I'm so pumped for this year. However, I just had this thought about how our rosters are pretty similar:

Superstar, top pick center (Eichel, MacKinnon)
RoR
Another superstar, top pick center (Reinhart, Duchene)
Strong, two way forward (Landeskog, Girgensons) - maybe a bit of a stretch
Former top pick defenseman finding his game on a new team (Bogo, EJ)
Up and coming defenseman (Barrie, Risto)
Obtain goalie by trading 1st round pick (Varlamov, Lehner)
Vet forward (Jarome Iginla, Brian Gionta)
McGinn


Just noting the similarity between the two rosters. Why will our season be different from the last years Avs? How about going forward?
Everything went wrong with the AVS last year (injuries, etc). So unless everything goes wrong with the Sabres next year you shouldn't worry about it. AVS won the toughest division in the league the year before with almost the exact same roster.

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06-27-2015, 04:34 PM
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HOOats
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Because we play in the East and Risto is going to be the best player on our team this year.

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06-27-2015, 04:34 PM
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I think the biggest difference is Colorado's success relied heavily on a handful of players (the depth difference) and excellent goaltending. We are not likely to get the same level of goaltending but should have a much deeper team. How that translates into points remains to be seen.


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06-27-2015, 08:21 PM
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Jaymond Flurrie
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I have to say that Lehner <-> Varlamov comparison is not even close. I'm not saying Avs takes all the other comparisons, but goalie is so huge part of a team that Lehner _has_ to be Vezina-caliber in order for Sabres to have even slightest chance of success.

The thing that Sabres can easily overcome in comparison to Avalanche is defense. Avalanche has Johnson and Barrie and that's it.

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06-27-2015, 08:30 PM
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Interesting idea. I'm not totally unhappy at the thought of being where Colorado is hanging around next season.

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06-27-2015, 08:31 PM
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Connor McDavid
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgf View Post
Last year's avs were complacent over the summer because of the unbelieveable year before and so played like **** for the first 30 games. EJ, Duchene, Everberg and Tanguay were the only players playing consistently well in that stretch and Duchene was snakebitten while Everberg was meant to be an AHL callup. With Varly battling injuries over that stretch the team lost all confidence and was in the McDavid sweepstakes well into november, and I think December.
After Varly got healthy the team started to turn the season around near that 30 game mark only for EJ to go down for the season at the ASB...At a time where he was leading all Dmen in goals and leaving Guenin-Barrie and Stuart-Redmond as our top 2 pairings. Despite that the team put up 90 points this year with Landeskog-O'Reilly and Barrie playing incredible hockey after EJ went down (MacK to, but his season ended early as well).
Also, on top of the injuries to EJ, MacKinnon and Varlamov, the avs had an unreal amount of injuries to our depth guys which is why there was a point where Cody McCleod was the best option we had to put next to Duchene in the top 6. Our injuries weren't lumbus bad because other than EJ/MacK/Varly it was all depth guys, but that made it even harder for our core guys and lead to a situation where we had to use our top two lines to shelter the 4th line because Cliche and co were so awful.

So it was a very odd year for us with an awful start, our depth was decimated, and we had a few backbreaking injuries at the worst possible times (Varly/EJ/MacK). But despite that all, they rallied, had a very strong second half of the year, and got themselves back into the playoff race til the very end. If Buffalo had a similar season I'd be really excited for my buffalo friends, even though you still wouldn't be back in the playoffs yet.


A year like that, despite all of the adversity we had to deal with; with Murray making one more big move at some point (one that brings in a LHD); and I'd favor you guys to become the biggest threat out of the east in a few more years (even over the two Florida teams that I expect to be your biggest competition at that point). And I don't even think Kane will ever "figure it out." But fortunately with Eichel/ROR/Girgs/Samson, Ennis/Larsson/Foligno/McGinn, and Fasching/Bailey/Baptiste, he doesn't have to. If Kane remains a one man third line with Foligno and Larsson helping him get the puck back, you'll still become a wonderful team to watch with a monstrous top 9.

Especially because I love the way your D is set up, even after losing Zads. Being able to have Risto, Bogo and Pysser anchoring each pairing will make it a lot easier to round out the defense with guys who are solid compliments to their righty studs. I see you guys having a very LA type D set up in a few years where there's no "true" #2 partnering your franchise RHD, but you've surrounded him with 4 really good middle pairing guys, one of whom compliments Risto well stylistically and so is effective on that top pairing while the other 3 give you a great 2nd pairing and a very strong 3rd pairing you can trust.

You guys are going to be a monster for the rest of the east to deal with during the playoffs in time.
good postin fam

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Old
06-27-2015, 08:48 PM
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Two differences Iwould add (1 roster related and 1 is an "other") are:

1.) Avs are hungrier right now. They really believe they were better than a number of teams that made the 2015 playoffs. I think they will be faster out of the gate while the Sabres may need time to develop chemistry.

And 2.) Blysma says he's a big fan of using analytics. Roy is more old school. It seems to take a lot of persuasion for Patrick to change up his system or approach. Analytics give a coach strong statistical feedback and enhance adaptability (IMO).

Regular opponents ( and playoff series match ups) tend to figure out the Avs approach and make it more difficult for them to execute as more games are played. Witness the 2014 1st round flame out against the Wild.

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06-27-2015, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by littletonhockeycoach View Post
Two differences Iwould add (1 roster related and 1 is an "other") are:

1.) Avs are hungrier right now. They really believe they were better than a number of teams that made the 2015 playoffs. I think they will be faster out of the gate while the Sabres may need time to develop chemistry.

And 2.) Blysma says he's a big fan of using analytics. Roy is more old school. It seems to take a lot of persuasion for Patrick to change up his system or approach. Analytics give a coach strong statistical feedback and enhance adaptability (IMO).

Regular opponents ( and playoff series match ups) tend to figure out the Avs approach and make it more difficult for them to execute as more games are played. Witness the 2014 1st round flame out against the Wild.
Also, if you believe in "rookie luck, sophomore slump", Avs had all of it in 2013-15.

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06-27-2015, 10:06 PM
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Actually I had the same thought. Current Sabres are like last year's Avs, except without Varlamov. they are well on their way though.

Good luck.

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Yesterday, 07:20 AM
  #22
TheCerebral1
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Honestly, it depends on a few things. First I believe that our center core is more essentially more two way. When you removed O'Reilly from the Avalanche they are left with a hole that is essentially being filled by an offense only center in Soderberg. Who is at best a serviceable third line center. You can argue on Ryan O'Reilly versus Matt Duchene or MacKinnon versus Eichel. But I really think it comes down to Reinhart, Girgensons and Larsson that there is a major key difference. The Avs really lack that kind of depth for center depth. I will hands down take Girgensons over Soderberg and Reinhart over Grigorenko. Larsson is an awesome third/fourth line skill player. Defensively, Barre vs Ristolainen is your preference and former top overall defensemen Erik Johnson is a tick better than Bogosian. Zadorov is the slight advantage over the more polished Pysyk in upside. You can argue one way or the other on the defensive core's, but they are each teams weakness. They have an all world goalie, and Lehner is still ascending. Their advantage. Wings; they may have the advantage for now.

In the end, they are likely a full step ahead of us.

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Yesterday, 01:24 PM
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cannonball0828 View Post
Please note: I'm simply playing devils advocate here. I love the Sabres moves this weekend and I'm so pumped for this year. However, I just had this thought about how our rosters are pretty similar:

Superstar, top pick center (Eichel, MacKinnon)
Another superstar, top pick center (Reinhart, Duchene)
Strong, two way forward (Landeskog, Girgensons)
Former top pick defenseman finding his game on a new team (Bogo, EJ)
Up and coming defenseman (Barrie, Risto)
Obtain goalie by trading 1st round pick (Varlamov, Lehner)
Vet forward (Jarome Iginla, Brian Gionta)


Just noting the similarity between the two rosters. Why will our season be different from the last years Avs? How about going forward?

The players are similar as you list.



The big difference is in prospect depth. Buffalo has a far better depth.

In rankings last year buffalo was a top 3 while Colorado was a bottom 5.

Sure a void now in the team is LHD


Buffalo gives them some prospects fir ROR and MCGinn
Buffalo also has Kane

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Yesterday, 01:40 PM
  #24
SabresAreScaryGood
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Different players. Different coaches.

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Yesterday, 05:33 PM
  #25
cgf
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I agree with the idea that there is a lot of fun parallel's between the two clubs even without this huge trade that will now forever link our two cores. The biggest difference is that when we started to rebuild our Cubbard was Bare. There was no big tear down part of the rebuild in colorado, just the avs letting Joe drag progressively worse and thinner teams to the playoffs while we gave away picks like candy. So when Sakic retired all we had was Stastny just breaking in, Stewart in the pipeline, Wojtek Wolski not yet having "not-given-a-****"'d his way out of the league, and Shattenkirk just getting starting in NCAA. The first draft of the our rebuild was a godsend (bringing in Duchene, ROR, Barrie, and Pickard) but we made our big trades (EJ & Varly) at a time when our prospect pool was very thin and the only place we had any depth in the pool (R-PMDs) was taken apart. That's why we've had to be much more patient in finding the right guys/moves to come along, and had such a tough time putting together some semblance of depth/balance to let our kids actually get polished before getting thrown into the absolute mess that was the Joe Sacco coached Avalanche.
We are just now; after this massive trade and our subsequent moves; getting to a place where our organizational depth is in a good place. And even that may not last too long if Rantanen, Rendulic, Pickard, and one of Bigras/Siemens graduate this season.

Murray having so much more ammo to work with has let him be even more aggressive than Sherman/Lacroix were and has left you guys with your core and depth being much closer together in age/development so that they can all take similar steps together, for us that was much more spread out as our depth and LHDs should just start catching up to our core in the 2016-2017 season. So I expect the sabres to progress more quickly than we did, and for the most part more smoothly. There will still be 1 big let down year along the way after your breakout campaign, but they'll bounce back from that and just keep rising from there.
Plus we had our core pieces being coached by our version of Nolan for 4 years, not just 2, and that's why Elliott has been a bust despite having the best wrist shot in the organization and being our second or third most impressive skater (between Elliott, Duchene and Bigras for the spot behind MacK); why EJ's offensive game was neutered until Roy came along; why Barrie wasn't getting to shine; and why Duchene still hasn't learnt to not beat himself up so much when the entire team is struggling. This held our rebuild back, and meant we squandered some big talents...and Brayden McNabb robbing Hishon of 2 years with that brutal elbow didn't help either...



Anyway; here is how I would line up our respective pieces in terms of how they should fit into the final puzzle/the roles they can fulfill; rather than by where they are in their development (thus Duchene and Samson are paired, as are Rantanen & Girgensen, Kane & Grigorenko/Radulov, instead of Dutchy-Kane, Grigs-Girgs, and Ranta-Reinhart), not all the pairings are of the same caliber, but stylistically they should provide a similar type of impact:

The Sexy Forward Core:
MacKinnon - Eichel (The Star)
Landeskog - ROR (The Born Leader)
Duchene - Reinhart (The Second Son)
Rantanen - Girgs (The Perfect Compliment)
Grigs/Radulov? - Kane (The Enigma)

Bleackley - Larsson (The Dynamic Middle 6er)
Everberg - Foligno (The Huge Third Liner)
Greer - Fasching (The College PWF)
Rendulic - Bailey (The Raw and Toolsy PWF)
Compher - Baptiste (The Bottom-6 Demon)
Nantel - Carrier (The Likely Wildcard/Longshot)

_____ - Ennis and McGinn; didn't know who to put up against these guys, partially cause I think Murray moves Ennis at some point, and partially because the only avs who have a similar game to ennis are old man Tanguay and Joey Hishon (who I have no faith in); would be cool of Bourke or Colin Smith made it, but I doubt it.

The Beastly Blueline:
EJ - Risto (The #1)
Zads - Bogo (The Big Baddie)
Barrie - Pysyk (The Smooth and Clever #3)
Bigras - McCabe (The Top LHD Prospect)

Siemens/Meloche/Geertsen/Wood - I don't know your defensive prospects beyond Risto/Pysser/McCabe/Zads very well to find comps for these guys for us but each of these kids have nice middle pairing upside if they can keep developing as well as they have been...or in Siemens' case stay healthy enough to get his break.

Da Goalers
Varly - Lehner (The Huge Talents that we Traded Firsts for)
Berra - Lindback (The Iffy Backups w/ Surprisingly Good #s)
Pickard/Martin- Makarov/Ullmark (The Top Prospects)
Pajpach - Lieuwen (The Longshots with Huge Upside)


Last edited by cgf: Yesterday at 05:40 PM.
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