HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Buffalo Sabres
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Tim Murray debate

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
01-06-2016, 09:25 AM
  #1
SabresAreScaryGood
Win jack for Jack!
 
SabresAreScaryGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Tim Murray debate

Good: Top 5 pick

Bad: Top 5 pick

Ugly: Wishing you had Darcy Regier back





MOD EDIT: took this out of GBU thread


Last edited by joshjull: 01-07-2016 at 12:40 PM.
SabresAreScaryGood is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:29 AM
  #2
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Good: Top 5 pick

Bad: Top 5 pick

Ugly: Wishing you had Darcy Regier back
No, you don't want the guy who put together:

Adam
Roy
Leino
Gaustad

Center depth when given a blank check and a playoff roster anywhere near this team.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 10:06 AM
  #3
SabresAreScaryGood
Win jack for Jack!
 
SabresAreScaryGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
No, you don't want the guy who put together:

Adam
Roy
Leino
Gaustad

Center depth when given a blank check and a playoff roster anywhere near this team.
Murray is the guy we want after the rebuild is complete.

We had so many assets and we didn't get enough out of them.

SabresAreScaryGood is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 10:57 AM
  #4
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Murray is the guy we want after the rebuild is complete.

We had so many assets and we didn't get enough out of them.
Let's call O'Reilly a push for the sake of pessimism.

At this point, your argument is basically:

Myers
UFA Stafford
Lemieux
Armia
21
25

for

Kane
Bogosian
Lehner
Goalie Prospect

Is an irreversibly bad use of assets? I'm not really seeing it, unless the other rumored Myers centerpieces like Fowler and Larkin were available for similar assets.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 12:21 PM
  #5
SabresAreScaryGood
Win jack for Jack!
 
SabresAreScaryGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Let's call O'Reilly a push for the sake of pessimism.

At this point, your argument is basically:

Myers
UFA Stafford
Lemieux
Armia
21
25

for

Kane
Bogosian
Lehner
Goalie Prospect

Is an irreversibly bad use of assets? I'm not really seeing it, unless the other rumored Myers centerpieces like Fowler and Larkin were available for similar assets.
Those are huge assets we had. He has to hit on something there.

The O'Reilly trade is also one I think Regier makes easily. He would not make the Myers trade.

SabresAreScaryGood is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 12:28 PM
  #6
struckbyaparkedcar
Zemgus Da Gawd
 
struckbyaparkedcar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Upstate NY
Country: Cote DIvoire
Posts: 12,538
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Those are huge assets we had. He has to hit on something there.

The O'Reilly trade is also one I think Regier makes easily. He would not make the Myers trade.
Based on what part of a 13 year career?

I think Zadorov would have been a non-starter for Darcy.

struckbyaparkedcar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 12:34 PM
  #7
SabresAreScaryGood
Win jack for Jack!
 
SabresAreScaryGood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Country: United States
Posts: 5,182
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Based on what part of a 13 year career?

I think Zadorov would have been a non-starter for Darcy.
After all the maturity issues? My thoughts were Compher would have been hard for Regier to part with. My guess is that it would have gotten done.

SabresAreScaryGood is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:25 PM
  #8
FrecLognAizeW
Registered User
 
FrecLognAizeW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Mighty Taco, NY
Country: United States
Posts: 1,078
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Those are huge assets we had. He has to hit on something there.
Armia had/has bust written all over him. Lemieux had rumored character issues, and IMO tops out at Deslauriers anyways. Stafford was a chronically under-performing UFA regardless of his current production in the 'Peg.

I wouldn't call them "huge assets". Myers was huge, as were the pick(s). But there were some meaty returns as well, even if they aren't quite as advertised yet.

FrecLognAizeW is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:34 PM
  #9
tsujimoto74
Moderator
 
tsujimoto74's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Rochester
Country: United States
Posts: 13,148
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Those are huge assets we had. He has to hit on something there.

The O'Reilly trade is also one I think Regier makes easily. He would not make the Myers trade.
Nah, Regier would've sat on his hands and watched ROR go to some other team for a price we could've easily paid. Even if Murray turns out not always to be right (and who is?), I appreciate that he has the gumption to actually make big moves, try to land the big fish, etc.

tsujimoto74 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:34 PM
  #10
OkimLom
Registered User
 
OkimLom's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 2,757
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Good: Top 5 pick

Bad: Top 5 pick

Ugly: Wishing you had Darcy Regier back
The man with no plan???

He had three plans in his tenure here:

Do nothing to get offense here and let Hasek wins us games...
Get lucky that the level of penalties called after the lockout benefited your team...
I need to change the core that I built from the beginning...

He's a horrible GM that doesn't know how to BUILD a team, he might be good at keeping one afloat for a little bit. I can write a book on how horrible of a GM he was and why he worked best without any resources at his disposal.

OkimLom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:51 PM
  #11
flyingpig
Pay the Troll Toll
 
flyingpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pay the troll toll
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabresfansince1980 View Post
I can be patient with Ullmark since he should be in Rochester. I can be patient with Moulson and Gionta since they are players that have to run their course and aren't part of the future. I can't be patient with Ennis, Kane, and Bogo...or even waiting for Lehner to get in shape and effective sometime in the next 18 months (maybe). These are players that were acquired or re-signed to be part of the future and to be contributing now.
The bolded is the important part, not the contributing now part. As long as they teach the youngsters how to prepare, they grow as a team and learn to win and they regain their form or get moved for replacement parts (Ennis), I am fine. Keep in mind, this is both a young and a new team and it has several holes.

They are battling hard, coming back from deficits, and, for the most part, losing close games, against many top teams. The young core is excellent.

flyingpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:54 PM
  #12
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 39,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Those are huge assets we had. He has to hit on something there.

The O'Reilly trade is also one I think Regier makes easily. He would not make the Myers trade.
That statement makes no sense. The Oreilly trade is literally the complete opposite of anything Regier would have ever done.

Jame is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:56 PM
  #13
flyingpig
Pay the Troll Toll
 
flyingpig's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Pay the troll toll
Posts: 2,179
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
G- didn't get shut out by the best team in the Atlantic
- ROR got one against Vezina leader Luongo
- Panthers rebuild looking good after missing playoffs 3 years in a row (they did win division in 11/12)
- Jagr is a freak of nature

B- this isn't a scrapheap team like last year, Murray wanted these specific guys
- this isn't no system Nolan, Murray wanted fancy stats Dan Bylsma
- Myers is outscoring Kane & Bogo combined (Stafford outscoring Myers)
- it's not just about points, we gave up 5 goals too.

U- not only did they lose, they look bad doing it


*edit*
I did invent an excuse for the way Bylsma uses players. He is training them now for the roles he see's them in moving forward, instead of using the players currently better suited for the roles. Eichel for example is going to be a 1C, so he is used in 1C situations now to better prepare him. Unfortunately, by that logic, Zemgus has no future in Buffalo.
Who knows, we keep Myers and Staff and we don't get number 15.

Plus, some of that has to do with injuries for our guys and Stafford and Myers playing on a team that was not historically bad last year and trying to build form the bottom up. Context.

That said, I want and expect more from Kane and Bogo and Ennis and Girgs.

flyingpig is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 01:56 PM
  #14
Dingo44
Registered User
 
Dingo44's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Greensboro, NC
Country: United States
Posts: 377
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
That statement makes no sense. The Oreilly trade is literally the complete opposite of anything Regier would have ever done.
You're falling for his bashing of Murray as easily as I fall for your bashing of Blysma. Nothing either of us say will overcome irrational thought.


Last edited by Dingo44: 01-06-2016 at 02:09 PM.
Dingo44 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 02:27 PM
  #15
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 39,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zip15 View Post
Yep. Worse yet, one of the other teams kicking the tires on ROR was Toronto, who was said to be offering Gardiner+.
:shudder:

can you imagine if Toronto got Babcock and Oreilly... a part of me would've died.

Jame is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 07:28 PM
  #16
wunderpanda
Praise Bylsma \ o /
 
wunderpanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
That statement makes no sense. The Oreilly trade is literally the complete opposite of anything Regier would have ever done.
Can I ask for a little clarification of this position? It doesn't seem much different than Darcy trading for Hecht or Briere or that weird 3 way trade with Avs & Flames for Drury. Those moves were at similar stage of a rebuild, or at least during the transition between Hasek & Miller.

wunderpanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 08:52 PM
  #17
bluetooth
Registered User
 
bluetooth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: San Francisco
Country: Burkina Faso
Posts: 465
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Can I ask for a little clarification of this position? It doesn't seem much different than Darcy trading for Hecht or Briere or that weird 3 way trade with Avs & Flames for Drury. Those moves were at similar stage of a rebuild, or at least during the transition between Hasek & Miller.
Clarification is that TM has zero emotional attachment to any of the players traded for ROR. He didn't draft them. Darcy traded for those players earlier on in his tenure, ten years prior to his firing in Buffalo. It was time for new blood to come in and clean up as he saw fit, which was partially the point in firing Darcy.

bluetooth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 08:59 PM
  #18
gallagt01
Registered User
 
gallagt01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Sloan
Posts: 10,278
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Can I ask for a little clarification of this position? It doesn't seem much different than Darcy trading for Hecht or Briere or that weird 3 way trade with Avs & Flames for Drury. Those moves were at similar stage of a rebuild, or at least during the transition between Hasek & Miller.
Regier moved two seconds for Hecht, if I recall correctly, and Gratton and a fourth for Briere and a third. Neither trade is comparable to the ROR deal as neither Briere nor Hecht were held in such high regard leaguewide the way ROR was when Murray traded for him and the prices paid were significantly less valuable than what was paid for ROR.

The Drury one is the only comparable, but only because Regier parted with Ballard to acquire Reinprecht (who was subsequently packaged with Warrener to acquire Drury).

Still, Drury wasn't a "big fish" at the time of his trade the way ROR was.

Darcy wouldn't have moved Zadorov, the key component in the ROR trade.

gallagt01 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:00 PM
  #19
Jame
Dream '16
 
Jame's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Florida
Country: Pitcairn Islands
Posts: 39,232
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
Can I ask for a little clarification of this position? It doesn't seem much different than Darcy trading for Hecht or Briere or that weird 3 way trade with Avs & Flames for Drury. Those moves were at similar stage of a rebuild, or at least during the transition between Hasek & Miller.

Clarification: it is much different

Jame is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:01 PM
  #20
wunderpanda
Praise Bylsma \ o /
 
wunderpanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluetooth View Post
Clarification is that TM has zero emotional attachment to any of the players traded for ROR. He didn't draft them. Darcy traded for those players earlier on in his tenure, ten years prior to his firing in Buffalo. It was time for new blood to come in and clean up as he saw fit, which was partially the point in firing Darcy.
I'm not disputing Darcy was here too long, just that the ROR trade was the exact opposite of anything Darcy ever did.

wunderpanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:02 PM
  #21
wunderpanda
Praise Bylsma \ o /
 
wunderpanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,780
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jame View Post
Clarification: it is much different
How?

wunderpanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:10 PM
  #22
Zman5778
Registered User
 
Zman5778's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Cressona/Reading, PA
Country: United States
Posts: 7,076
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to Zman5778 Send a message via MSN to Zman5778 Send a message via Yahoo to Zman5778
Quote:
Originally Posted by wunderpanda View Post
I'm not disputing Darcy was here too long, just that the ROR trade was the exact opposite of anything Darcy ever did.
Regier never waded into the big fish market. Briere wasn't a big fish when he was traded for, he was a reclamation project. Hecht was known as a glue guy, but no one knew how good he really was. Drury was the biggest name acquired, but ROR is a far bigger name league wide than Drury was at the time.

Regier traded Keith Ballard....who was a nice prospect, but nowhere near Zadorov.

Regier never traded any prospect of Zadorov's ilk. Regier only once traded away a 1st rounder without getting one in return. Only a handful of times did he trade away prospects as talented as Compher or Grigo.


Bottom line: Regier was too attached to his prospects to ever make the ROR deal, which involved 3 good prospects.

Zman5778 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:21 PM
  #23
Beerz
Registered User
 
Beerz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country: United States
Posts: 20,814
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zman5778 View Post
Regier never waded into the big fish market. Briere wasn't a big fish when he was traded for, he was a reclamation project. Hecht was known as a glue guy, but no one knew how good he really was. Drury was the biggest name acquired, but ROR is a far bigger name league wide than Drury was at the time.

Regier traded Keith Ballard....who was a nice prospect, but nowhere near Zadorov.

Regier never traded any prospect of Zadorov's ilk. Regier only once traded away a 1st rounder without getting one in return. Only a handful of times did he trade away prospects as talented as Compher or Grigo.


Bottom line: Regier was too attached to his prospects to ever make the ROR deal, which involved 3 good prospects.

When did Reiger have depth in his prospect pool that would make it much easier to deal them?

Beerz is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 09:41 PM
  #24
wunderpanda
Praise Bylsma \ o /
 
wunderpanda's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Posts: 3,780
vCash: 500
Ballard was drafted 11th overall, at the time he was at least an equal prospect as Zad. Only a year after he was drafted, still had a bunch of shine.

wunderpanda is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
01-06-2016, 11:08 PM
  #25
Zip15
Registered User
 
Zip15's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 21,003
vCash: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beerz View Post
When did Reiger have depth in his prospect pool that would make it much easier to deal them?
2004-05 and coming out of the lockout. The since-maligned Rochester core, plus Stafford, had huge value coming out of the first lockout and in the first season or two thereafter.


Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
Murray is the guy we want after the rebuild is complete.

We had so many assets and we didn't get enough out of them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SabresAreScaryGood View Post
After all the maturity issues? My thoughts were Compher would have been hard for Regier to part with. My guess is that it would have gotten done.
I suppose this has to be the argument now for those who are looking to diminish Murray's body of work.

"Oh, Regier would've made that deal, too!"

Based on what? Certainly not his track record.

Quote:
Originally Posted by struckbyaparkedcar View Post
Based on what part of a 13 year career?

I think Zadorov would have been a non-starter for Darcy.
Precisely. He wouldn't have moved Zadorov, nor would he have been willing to give up the number of pieces on top of Zadorov to get ROR. (I do think he would've tried to move Grigorenko, but probably in a smaller deal.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by tsujimoto74 View Post
Nah, Regier would've sat on his hands and watched ROR go to some other team for a price we could've easily paid. Even if Murray turns out not always to be right (and who is?), I appreciate that he has the gumption to actually make big moves, try to land the big fish, etc.
Yep. Worse yet, one of the other teams kicking the tires on ROR was Toronto, who was said to be offering Gardiner+.


Last edited by joshjull: 01-07-2016 at 12:36 PM. Reason: merged comments on Murray/Regier debate from another post
Zip15 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:12 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2016, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2016 All Rights Reserved.