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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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Old
02-06-2013, 06:58 PM
  #276
Riptide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Completely agree with this. If Kennedy can go back to 20/20 form and Boychuk can mix well with Malkin then we're fine.
People need to remember how TK potted 20. He actually played 80 games... His GPG is ~.2 so 17g on a 82 game season. But that season he was also getting tons of prime icetime with Staal as our #1 line when Crosby and Malkin were injured. Odds are good that TK will never hit those totals again and certainly not with the Pens.

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02-06-2013, 06:58 PM
  #277
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Harrington and a 1st would be fine for me. Or maybe Harrington and a 2nd. Whatever floats Toronto's boat out of those two.
I tend to be skeptical of prospects fans are willing to give up,

My gut tells me it would be a prospect that would make fans wince a little to see go along with a 1rst.

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02-06-2013, 06:59 PM
  #278
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
If Kessel+Kulemin was on the table in a package, i'm sure Leafs could do better then that. But if somehow Shero got those 2, Pens would be set for YEARS! We could easily make room if we need to aswell, like bye Martin+Kunitz (that's like 10M right there). Leafs would be better off trading those 2 at drfat day for a top 5 pick+top prospect, and a roster player.
I was being facetious.

BUT, I don't think it's a given that Kumy really was the guy being scouted. Unless Nonis really isn't sold outside his top four and sees immediate upgrade dividends from a guy like Niskanen (not impossible) and Shero is willing to deal him (not impossible) OR it's prospects/picks, then I wouldn't be shocked if Shero's guys really were looking at Kessel.

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02-06-2013, 06:59 PM
  #279
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Out of the top six D prospects that we have, I would only put Maatta and Dumoulin in a deal for Kulemin.

Would I do Niskanen for Kulemin? Probably. Only thing that worries me is that the only other NHL-ready defenseman we have outside our starting six would be... wait for it... BEN LOVEJOY. Yikes.

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02-06-2013, 07:00 PM
  #280
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Rather unnecessary seeing as we dont need or dont want Kennedy.
The value of that proposal is obviously in Harrington + 1st (I am not sure I`d go there, but that was the proposal), no one is forcing you to take Kennedy, I would guess, it`s just that nothing else would be added in lieu of TK.

End of the day, if it is a futures deal, you can pretty much take your free choice of Lovejoy or Tangradi as a throw in as a roster spot would have to be cleared anyway.

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02-06-2013, 07:01 PM
  #281
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Originally Posted by TMLblue75 View Post
No one forced you to enter this thread, or any other Kulemin to PIT thread for that matter. Sorry if we hurt your feelings though.
I appreciate your sincere apology.

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02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
  #282
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I don't see it happening; the Leafs would want more than the Penguins would offer, which wouldn't be much. We'll see but I don't believe it will happen.

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02-06-2013, 07:03 PM
  #283
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Originally Posted by DoubleDose86 View Post
Don't want to trade Kulemin, but I do love the Penguins so wouldn't mind him going there.

Problem is, Kule is young, we don't need to trade him. And therefore we would want an overpayment. Pens fans wouldn't want to overpay because they want to add and go for it. Kule's stats should bring his value down some. But he isn't all about the stats, he's one of the guys who has more to his game.

My question is, to get around the stat argument, does Nonis bring up the KHL and how malkin and kule clicked?

I see fans mention chemistry, but do GMs try to use it to get what they want? do you think it actually works in an arguement?

Shero mentions kule's low scoring. So Nonis brings up the chemistry they had?
Absolutely he does. He's not doing his job otherwise. Shero in turn points out that the KHL isn't the NHL, and that it's a different game. And around and around they go. Nonis either stands firm on what he deems to be fair value (which is a lot more than his stats would indicate), or Shero goes elsewhere.

I can see Nonis taking something like Maatta (tsn ranked him #10 predraft) and a pick for him. I don't see Shero giving up much more than that (maybe someone like Tangradi/TK/Jeffrey - not worthless, but nothing big).

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02-06-2013, 07:05 PM
  #284
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Just throwing stuff out there to see what Toronto would do.

Harrington + pick would be more realistic I think.
More realistic for Toronto yeah. I'm thinking something like Jeffrey/Tangradi + 2nd and 4th pick is the most Shero will give up.

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02-06-2013, 07:05 PM
  #285
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Originally Posted by Nathan311 View Post
Leafs don't have the roster to trade Kulemin for lesser picks (X + Pick...etc). Leafs need high end talent, if they move Kulemin I strongly believe it will be in a Leafs package for a better player.

EDIT: To clarify, I don't think Kulemin will be traded. Too important to the team. Core piece...etc
What value right now or in the foreseeable future does Kulemin have as an addition to a package for a high end talent? He definitely wouldn't be a centerpiece.

Look, as a Pens fan, I'd give Phil Kessel's good nut to land Kulemin. I'm with Leafs fans who love his game. BUT, objectively speaking, in a deal for high end talent, his value to a team is as a second/third line tweener who plays a nice, physical two way game and may or may not one day be a consistent 45-50 point scorer.

Now, I say that not to be insulting, and I hope nobody does the petulant 'fine, we'll keep him then'. I'm just giving an honest appraisal of what he's worth in a deal for a high end talent . . . right now, he'd be the third or fourth best piece in a deal like that.

EDIT: Maybe that's why a defensive prospect from the Pens as big chip has value. Yeah, you've got a few high end defensive prospects, but an organization never can have enough. Four years into his pro career, Alex Gologoski yielded Neal and Niskanen. He was 'expendable' because the Pens were loaded with defensemen throughout the system. Sometimes, if your goal is to leverage a Kulemin into a higher end player, the parts in a deal for him will offer even better leverage in a year or two. Not trying to persuade you, just saying you can NEVER have enough high end defensive prospects.

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02-06-2013, 07:09 PM
  #286
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
More realistic for Toronto yeah. I'm thinking something like Jeffrey/Tangradi + 2nd and 4th pick is the most Shero will give up.
Stop thinking. He'd give up more. Quite a bit more.

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02-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #287
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I was being facetious.

BUT, I don't think it's a given that Kumy really was the guy being scouted. Unless Nonis really isn't sold outside his top four and sees immediate upgrade dividends from a guy like Niskanen (not impossible) and Shero is willing to deal him (not impossible) OR it's prospects/picks, then I wouldn't be shocked if Shero's guys really were looking at Kessel.
Kessel would be money here. easy 40 (Career high 45 goals, probably once) goals most years, 30 minimum. 85-90 points aswell.

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02-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #288
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Originally Posted by Riptide View Post
Absolutely he does. He's not doing his job otherwise. Shero in turn points out that the KHL isn't the NHL, and that it's a different game. And around and around they go. Nonis either stands firm on what he deems to be fair value (which is a lot more than his stats would indicate), or Shero goes elsewhere.

I can see Nonis taking something like Maatta (tsn ranked him #10 predraft) and a pick for him. I don't see Shero giving up much more than that (maybe someone like Tangradi/TK/Jeffrey - not worthless, but nothing big).
IMO, IF that's what they were talking, then Nonis would want the pick to be a 1st. Shero might be willing to go a 2nd.

Question is 'what's the middle ground'? Adding Kennedy does very little for the Leafs. Teddy Bleuger? Hate to give up that kid, but, if Nonis doesn't want a roster player, then Bleuger, Maatta, 2nd might be interesting.

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02-06-2013, 07:11 PM
  #289
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
TFP is reporting the pens are eyeing Kulemin there is no mention as to what they would but I would rhink Nonis would be interested in Sutter as at 6-3 he addresses the issue of size up the middle I am also aware the pens have a couple of promising D prospects but with Gardiner, Reilly Percy, Finn, Blacker etc Leafs are loaded at that position .

Rumor makes sense as Malkin and Kulemin played together in the KHL and tore it up. Is there a deal here if so what is it?

Toronto fans need this wet dream to be quashed immediately. Pittsburgh trades Jordan Staal to carolina ... the key component for that deal happening was Sutter coming back. If he didn't come back, Staal is a Ranger or a Penguin still. Trading Sutter makes absolutely no sense for Kulemin.

We have talked about this deal too many times. We have D prospects (Maatta, Pouliott, maybe Harrington) to offer and a second. We aren't trading Despres, we ain't trading Morrow. If its not a combo of one of these D prospects and a second, there is no other way a deal can be done.

While Kulemin makes perfect sense for Pittsburgh and would add another dimension, I'm not one for doing the deal just because this chemistry between him and Malkin in the KHL. Different style of league, different league period. It doesn't make automatic success.

Kulemin would be a great add, but not at the expense of Sutter, Morrow or Despres as well as the other obvious guys (Fleury, Sid, Malkin, Neal, Orpik, Kunitz)

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02-06-2013, 07:13 PM
  #290
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
IMO, IF that's what they were talking, then Nonis would want the pick to be a 1st. Shero might be willing to go a 2nd.

Question is 'what's the middle ground'? Adding Kennedy does very little for the Leafs. Teddy Bleuger? Hate to give up that kid, but, if Nonis doesn't want a roster player, then Bleuger, Maatta, 2nd might be interesting.
You are giving up too much for Kulemin.

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02-06-2013, 07:15 PM
  #291
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Toronto fans need this wet dream to be quashed immediately. Pittsburgh trades Jordan Staal to carolina ... the key component for that deal happening was Sutter coming back. If he didn't come back, Staal is a Ranger or a Penguin still. Trading Sutter makes absolutely no sense for Kulemin.

We have talked about this deal too many times. We have D prospects (Maatta, Pouliott, maybe Harrington) to offer and a second. We aren't trading Despres, we ain't trading Morrow. If its not a combo of one of these D prospects and a second, there is no other way a deal can be done.

While Kulemin makes perfect sense for Pittsburgh and would add another dimension, I'm not one for doing the deal just because this chemistry between him and Malkin in the KHL. Different style of league, different league period. It doesn't make automatic success.

Kulemin would be a great add, but not at the expense of Sutter, Morrow or Despres as well as the other obvious guys (Fleury, Sid, Malkin, Neal, Orpik, Kunitz)
I think most rational people here pretty much recognize what Shero would and would not put on the table.

The question that I have is, considering what he would put on the table, then what COULD Nonis want?

IF Nonis were interested in a guy like Maatta, the question is the PLUS part. He'd want a first. IMO, Shero wouldn't want to go more than a 2nd. Only possible 'middle ground' I could conceive that might interest is Bleuger, Maatta, 2nd.

Only other thing I can conceive would involve Niskanen.

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02-06-2013, 07:16 PM
  #292
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
NO Super, i would not be saying this if he had not shown the ability to already do that.

As a leafs fan i also am well aware of their chemistry when not playing in the NHL.
Well he's only done it once.

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02-06-2013, 07:16 PM
  #293
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Stop thinking. He'd give up more. Quite a bit more.
Ok then, I'm one of the skeptics. But he better be the all-star he was in the KHL next to Malkin then.

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02-06-2013, 07:17 PM
  #294
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
You are giving up too much for Kulemin.
Blueger, Maatta, 2nd isn't too much for Kulemin. It will sting, and I hate to lose a kid like Bleuger. BUT, you have to give to get. If the 1st is a no go for Shero, then he's going to have to add SOMETHING to Maatta and a 2nd that Nonis might want. A kid like Blueger might be it.

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02-06-2013, 07:18 PM
  #295
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
What value right now or in the foreseeable future does Kulemin have as an addition to a package for a high end talent? He definitely wouldn't be a centerpiece.

Look, as a Pens fan, I'd give Phil Kessel's good nut to land Kulemin. I'm with Leafs fans who love his game. BUT, objectively speaking, in a deal for high end talent, his value to a team is as a second/third line tweener who plays a nice, physical two way game and may or may not one day be a consistent 45-50 point scorer.

Now, I say that not to be insulting, and I hope nobody does the petulant 'fine, we'll keep him then'. I'm just giving an honest appraisal of what he's worth in a deal for a high end talent . . . right now, he'd be the third or fourth best piece in a deal like that.

EDIT: Maybe that's why a defensive prospect from the Pens as big chip has value. Yeah, you've got a few high end defensive prospects, but an organization never can have enough. Four years into his pro career, Alex Gologoski yielded Neal and Niskanen. He was 'expendable' because the Pens were loaded with defensemen throughout the system. Sometimes, if your goal is to leverage a Kulemin into a higher end player, the parts in a deal for him will offer even better leverage in a year or two. Not trying to persuade you, just saying you can NEVER have enough high end defensive prospects.
I agree with everything you said. It's just the draft/prospect gamble I'd be cautious of. The Kessel trade set them bad considerably so they really can't afford to swap proven for potential. They need to build through the draft like most other teams.

They need to look at the St Louis model with their lack of a top line centre; 3 solid lines. IF (big if) they can put that together in the next few years, they'll be looking for players like Kulemin.

He's a guy who is hard to gauge value wise because he holds more value to the Leafs then he'll ever return in a trade. He's young enough and versatile enough that you hold on to players like him through a rebuild IMO.

IMHO, Kessel is more likely to be traded then Kulemin. He'll fetch a hefty return and its easier to gauge value on a player like him. It's tough to get fair value for Kulie.

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02-06-2013, 07:19 PM
  #296
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Originally Posted by GoGuins8711 View Post
Ok then, I'm one of the skeptics. But he better be the all-star he was in the KHL next to Malkin then.
FYI, I was just teasing.

Unless the deal involves Niskanen, highest I see Shero going is something like Blueger, Maatta, 2nd. I think he wants to hold the first for a deal for Crosby's winger.

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02-06-2013, 07:19 PM
  #297
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I think most rational people here pretty much recognize what Shero would and would not put on the table.

The question that I have is, considering what he would put on the table, then what COULD Nonis want?

IF Nonis were interested in a guy like Maatta, the question is the PLUS part. He'd want a first. IMO, Shero wouldn't want to go more than a 2nd. Only possible 'middle ground' I could conceive that might interest is Bleuger, Maatta, 2nd.

Only other thing I can conceive would involve Niskanen.
He isn't worth Maatta, a second and Bluegger. That is too much. I value second round picks in this draft.

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02-06-2013, 07:19 PM
  #298
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Out of the top six D prospects that we have, I would only put Maatta and Dumoulin in a deal for Kulemin.

Would I do Niskanen for Kulemin? Probably. Only thing that worries me is that the only other NHL-ready defenseman we have outside our starting six would be... wait for it... BEN LOVEJOY. Yikes.
Waive Ben Lovejoy's ass and call-up Brian Dumoulin or Joe Morrow from WBS whenever they're needed.

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02-06-2013, 07:21 PM
  #299
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I agree with everything you said. It's just the draft/prospect gamble I'd be cautious of. The Kessel trade set them bad considerably so they really can't afford to swap proven for potential. They need to build through the draft like most other teams.

They need to look at the St Louis model with their lack of a top line centre; 3 solid lines. IF (big if) they can put that together in the next few years, they'll be looking for players like Kulemin.

He's a guy who is hard to gauge value wise because he holds more value to the Leafs then he'll ever return in a trade. He's young enough and versatile enough that you hold on to players like him through a rebuild IMO.

IMHO, Kessel is more likely to be traded then Kulemin. He'll fetch a hefty return and its easier to gauge value on a player like him. It's tough to get fair value for Kulie.
I agree with that. The question that I was raising, really, was this: Kulemin never will be worth as an addition to a deal for a high end talent what he is worth to the Leafs (IMO, Kulemin is the 3rd or 4th most valuable piece in a deal like that). So, if you can get future parts for him that have greater trade value for an organization looking to deal for top end talent, then is that worth it?

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02-06-2013, 07:22 PM
  #300
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
FYI, I was just teasing.

Unless the deal involves Niskanen, highest I see Shero going is something like Blueger, Maatta, 2nd. I think he wants to hold the first for a deal for Crosby's winger.
edit- i read wrong....my bad!

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