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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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Old
02-06-2013, 08:25 PM
  #401
marty111
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Better yet...

JvR-Bozak-Kessel
Lupul-Grabovski-Kulemin
Frattin-Kadri-Komarov

Kadri is nowhere near ready to centre Phil Kessel and deal with the pressure of being the #1 centre in Toronto (probably never will be), no matter which order you post them on hfboards. Not only is he terrible on faceoffs, but he's much weaker on the puck. Those are 2 major qualities essential in Kessel's centre.

If a better centre can be signed/traded for, then you could consider moving Grabo & Kulemin, getting Sutter in one of the deals.

Assuming that can happen is getting way ahead of yourself. Centres better than Grabo rarely become available.
All I can say to this fluff is that we are building for next year and the year after.

Kadri should be able to handle second line duties soon.
Sutter can already handle the third line.
Grabbo can go up against anything and make due.

Cart before horse? Ruining development? We are talking about 15-20 games, calm down.

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02-06-2013, 08:25 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
So, Kadri's eight point start in 10 games automatically makes him more valuable. Impressive.

Kulemin and Sutter are tied with one goal; Sutter plays with lesser talented forwards ... Sutter outscored Kulemin last year on the third line with less talented players 17-7; is four years younger and plays defense pretty equal to Kulemin, if not better. Very presumptuous saying this right now.
Sutter has 2 goals now.

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02-06-2013, 08:26 PM
  #403
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No, not true. Maybe in Pittsburgh he'll always be a 3C on the depth chart, but he's 23 and hasn't reached his prime. Kulemin will be 27. He IS in his prime.

Any KHL stats should not be brought into conversation. They hold no value. This is the NHL.

Did you ever watch Sutter in Carolina? He anchored some of the worst wingers in the league and still was able to play a key role there and be effective to boot. He's had a 40 point season at a younger age and playing less quality minutes than Kulemin, but you say that Kulemin is a solid second player because he plays a good defensive game and may put up 45-50 points. Then you say Sutter isn't close to him in value? Jesus, you make no sense.

Fact is: Sutter is 23. Plays a very, very good defensive game, has put up a 40 point season and the potential to put up similar (if not better) numbers than Kuelmin. Now go sign Satan. So cya later.
On the market Kulemin and Sutter likely have similar value but to the leafs it's a non starter. To us Kulemin >> Suter. And yes it's not close either. We love Kulemin - he has chemistry with Grabovski and is a very important player in our top 6. He's going no where.

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02-06-2013, 08:28 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Cant people stop adding Sutter to these trade proposals since it is pretty obvious that Pens previous winning concept of having 3 strong centers is not something they are interested in giving up.

And please dont add Kennedy or Niskanen to anything going to Toronto since they are not players we need.

What we do need is having a 2-way winger with size like Kulemin who fit the system Carlyle wants to run. But just talking value here the Leafs needs a 1st and a good prospect for Kulemin who have one more year left on his current deal after this season at $2.8m.

Is these kind of threads the punishment Leafs fans will have to suffer for all the player+player for Staal threads that have been created in the past?
What's wrong with:

Crosby
Malkin
Bozak

Or our centers really that bad?

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02-06-2013, 08:28 PM
  #405
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
Just my guess, in a scenario like that: The downgrade from Kulemin to Kennedy equals the downgrade from Despres to Holzer.

And, Shero wouldn't be 'wasting' anything. I was just saying that I could see him seeing Despres as 'expendable' when Niskanen returns.

He'd still have all the other assets to make a move for Crosby's RW.
Realistically, Pens fans cannot expect to get a winger at this point in the season without giving up a roster player. If one of Despres/Niskanen are expendable, that's who they should reasonably expect to get them a winger. At the deadline is when they could get a winger for futures.

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02-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #406
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
To motivate DN to move something that is not high on his list to move.

I'd say Maatta and a 1rst for Kuli and a 3rd.
So, you're saying Maatta+ for Kuli is something you could see Nonis doing. Clearly, he'd want a 1st and Shero would want to make it a 2nd. Maybe Shero bends and takes back a 3rd (or a 2nd). Maybe Nonis bends and says o'k to Maatta and a 2nd if Shero adds Teddy Blueger. IF you believe that Nonis would want Maatta as the big chip in a deal for Kuli and IF Shero really were willing to move Maatta to get him, then you have the potential for a deal.

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02-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #407
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
So, Kadri's eight point start in 10 games automatically makes him more valuable. Impressive.

Kulemin and Sutter are tied with one goal; Sutter plays with lesser talented forwards ... Sutter outscored Kulemin last year on the third line with less talented players 17-7; is four years younger and plays defense pretty equal to Kulemin, if not better. Very presumptuous saying this right now. Not saying Kulemin is garbage by any stretch. He would be a welcome addition. But, I don't think you have watched Brandon Sutter play one minute based on your comments. If he centered decent wingers instead of garbage, he would have put up pretty significant point totals.
Kadri was drafted 7th overall after a brilliant junior career. He managed to put up a PPG in the AHL -- while being labelled a bust by HF'ers because he didn't step into the NHL right away. He's always been a top performer and a high end prospect. His 8 points (playing only 14 minutes a night with little to no PP time) only underline his potential. So yes he is worth more. Always has been. Just because the uninformed on HF post there hate for a Leaf prospect doesn't make it different.

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02-06-2013, 08:29 PM
  #408
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
no.
look ...

lupul --- kessel
jvr kadri frattin
mcclement sutter ----

bozak mccarthur are playing on borrowed time
grabovsky makes 5.5 per / adios

getting a #1 C and 3rd line RW would be next
Kulemin for Sutter is a lateral move and Mcclement is a fine # 3 C.

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02-06-2013, 08:30 PM
  #409
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
I love it too.

Pittsburgh Penguin fans are the most spoiled in the league and they also expect you to deal vital parts of your team to them for some lesser prospects they could live without.... ignoring completely the needs of other teams.

And no, no let's get it straight, Pens fans are desperate for some quality wingers but in the case the Leafs HAVE TO let go of the guy... they're desperate don't you see?
we're just telling you what we'd offer and what we feel he's worth trade-wise. we're not telling you OMG GIVE US YOUR BEST PLAYERS AND WE'LL GIVE YOU TANGRADI HE HAR HAR HAR

you guys think he's worth Sutter +, we think he's worth around Maatta + 2nd, maybe + after that.

if i'm being honest, there are PLENTY of better wingers out there. the only value the Pens may see here is the fact that Kulemin and Malkin are BFFs and that MAYBE ONE YEAR Kulemin will put up similar numbers to his all-time best season.

the Pens shouldn't trade their best prospects/picks for someone who MIGHT score more than 7 goals.

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02-06-2013, 08:31 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Dangles78 View Post
No, not true. Maybe in Pittsburgh he'll always be a 3C on the depth chart, but he's 23 and hasn't reached his prime. Kulemin will be 27. He IS in his prime.

Any KHL stats should not be brought into conversation. They hold no value. This is the NHL.

Did you ever watch Sutter in Carolina? He anchored some of the worst wingers in the league and still was able to play a key role there and be effective to boot. He's had a 40 point season at a younger age and playing less quality minutes than Kulemin, but you say that Kulemin is a solid second player because he plays a good defensive game and may put up 45-50 points. Then you say Sutter isn't close to him in value? Jesus, you make no sense.

Fact is: Sutter is 23. Plays a very, very good defensive game, has put up a 40 point season and the potential to put up similar (if not better) numbers than Kuelmin. Now go sign Satan. So cya later.
He hasn't watched Sutter play ... didn't watch him last year either with those retched wingers he had to center.

I also love the put up great numbers in the KHL with Malkin ammo. So, I guess we can expect greatness from Morrow and Pouliott because they were teammates and were paired together in the WHL and put up huge numbers on the blueline. There is total chemistry there, so ...

KHL is a different league than the NHL. That success over there doesn't automatically translate to success in the NHL. Different styles. Why can't people see this?

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02-06-2013, 08:33 PM
  #411
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
What's wrong with:

Crosby
Malkin
Bozak

Or our centers really that bad?
it's not a knock on your centers as much as it is a knock on your judgment of player availability (and that goes both ways since some fans assume he's automatically available when the Leafs don't have much incentive to deal him anyway). the Pens just traded for Sutter and other pieces in the 2012 draft. why should the Pens trade him in a deal where the main return is a winger who MIGHT someday show some semblance of his 30-goal season?

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02-06-2013, 08:33 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Is these kind of threads the punishment Leafs fans will have to suffer for all the player+player for Staal threads that have been created in the past?
Yes. And it is not enough punishment.

Really, though, while Pens have started their fair share of them, this one plus the other most recent Kulemin to Pens thread were started by Leafs fans. So more like shooting yourself in the foot there.

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02-06-2013, 08:33 PM
  #413
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Originally Posted by Bozak View Post
On the market Kulemin and Sutter likely have similar value but to the leafs it's a non starter. To us Kulemin >> Suter. And yes it's not close either. We love Kulemin - he has chemistry with Grabovski and is a very important player in our top 6. He's going no where.
Can you please get his name correct? It's been brought up multiple times and it's not that hard.

If you want to keep Kulemin and overvalue him then fine. I won't lose sleep knowing the Pens are 4th in GPG, have a strong 3C model while the Leafs struggle to find quality center depth and knowing Shero won't overpay when there will possibly be better options available later.

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02-06-2013, 08:34 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
All I can say to this fluff is that we are building for next year and the year after.

Kadri should be able to handle second line duties soon.
Sutter can already handle the third line.
Grabbo can go up against anything and make due.

Cart before horse? Ruining development? We are talking about 15-20 games, calm down.
We're building going forward. That means this year and beyond.

Kadri might be able to step up into a 2nd line role next year, but that's A) not what you're proposing here, and b) not a good idea if the 3rd line is almost strictly defensive, and the first line is centered by Mikhail Grabovski.

If the first line was centered, by say, a Ryan Getzlaf, and the 2nd line consisted of Lupul-Kadri-Frattin, with a 3rd line of MacArthur-Sutter-Komarov, then we'd probably be fine.... but putting Kadri on the first line next year (which is what any line that has Phil Kessel on it will be) is a recipe for disaster.

So yes, if the Leafs are able to acquire a Ryan Getzlaf-type centre, then yes, we should consider a Kulemin/Sutter swap. But, considering a Kulemin/Sutter swap before that is the case is definitely putting the cart before the horse.

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02-06-2013, 08:34 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by johnny_rudeboy View Post
Cant people stop adding Sutter to these trade proposals since it is pretty obvious that Pens previous winning concept of having 3 strong centers is not something they are interested in giving up.

And please dont add Kennedy or Niskanen to anything going to Toronto since they are not players we need.

What we do need is having a 2-way winger with size like Kulemin who fit the system Carlyle wants to run. But just talking value here the Leafs needs a 1st and a good prospect for Kulemin who have one more year left on his current deal after this season at $2.8m.

Is these kind of threads the punishment Leafs fans will have to suffer for all the player+player for Staal threads that have been created in the past?
Yes . . .

Seriously, if you believe that the Leafs will keep Kulemin beyond next season, then he's worth more to you than any pick/prospect package that the Pens will put together.

If you believe that Kulemin won't be with the Leafs beyond next season, then the picks/prospect package probably is worth it.

If your aim is to leverage Kulemin as part of a package to get a high end talent, then I think you may agree that Kulemin would be the third piece in a deal like that and, for a deal like that, the pick/prospect package likely would hold more trade value than Kulemin for a team was moving a high end talent.

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02-06-2013, 08:34 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
I agree with that. The question that I was raising, really, was this: Kulemin never will be worth as an addition to a deal for a high end talent what he is worth to the Leafs (IMO, Kulemin is the 3rd or 4th most valuable piece in a deal like that). So, if you can get future parts for him that have greater trade value for an organization looking to deal for top end talent, then is that worth it?
Absolutely, assuming the futures pan out.. But, several other pro leagues are littered with late first rounders that never became NHL players..

Im not saying that will happen, but its certainly a possibility.. Given the state of the franchise, I don't see Nonis gambling with arguably their most valuable forward.
Quote:
Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
Only think I'd be looking at is:


Brandon Sutter
???


Nikolai Kulemin
Tyler Bozak
While I agree that's something the Leafs would have interest in, I think that's a non starter for Pittsburgh. They love what Sutter brings, and he's an ideal 3rd liner for them. They're very much a top 6/bottom 6 team while Bozak is more like a 2-3 tweener who doesn't bring the grit that Sutter does. Bozak is more of a perimeter playmaker with solid defensive and face off ability - while Sutter has some grind to his game and brings more size and strength. Possibly not the same offense, but he has all the intangibles that Bozak has, and more.


Regardless of HF perceived value, they're highly unlikely to move Sutter.

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02-06-2013, 08:35 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by marty111 View Post
What's wrong with:

Crosby
Malkin
Bozak

Or our centers really that bad?
The purpose of trading for Bozak, who is a UFA that Pittsburgh probably wouldn't bring back would be what? He pales in comparison to Sutter. It's not close either.

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02-06-2013, 08:36 PM
  #418
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Originally Posted by psupens View Post
we're just telling you what we'd offer and what we feel he's worth trade-wise. we're not telling you OMG GIVE US YOUR BEST PLAYERS AND WE'LL GIVE YOU TANGRADI HE HAR HAR HAR

you guys think he's worth Sutter +, we think he's worth around Maatta + 2nd, maybe + after that.

if i'm being honest, there are PLENTY of better wingers out there. the only value the Pens may see here is the fact that Kulemin and Malkin are BFFs and that MAYBE ONE YEAR Kulemin will put up similar numbers to his all-time best season.

the Pens shouldn't trade their best prospects/picks for someone who MIGHT score more than 7 goals.
Then fine. Collectively - because I was speaking generally - STOP making threads about trading a prospect and pick for him because THE ANSWER IS ALWAYS THE SAME.

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02-06-2013, 08:37 PM
  #419
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1: Would LOVE to have a Kulemin Malkin Neal line. Should be absolutely dominant if we consider the kind of chemistry Malkin and Neal have, the chemistry Malkin and Kulemin had at Magnitogorsk and not least the fact that what Kulemin brings (dismissing offensive production completely for a second) is exactly what Malkin needs in a third wheel on his line. Good skating, able passer, dominance on the boards, defensive solidity.

2: If I were Toronto I wouldn't trade away Kulemin except for overpayment... and Shero likely isn't the one to give that. So....

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02-06-2013, 08:37 PM
  #420
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
O'k, different question for my fellow Pens fans: What would Kulemin be worth to you if he were a consistent 45-50 point guy?

Two years ago, he was. Last year, he was a wreck (the crash in Russia and losing a father figure had a lot to do with it). This year, he's back on a 50 point pace.

So, let's say Shero looks at him and says 'o'k, he's a 45-50 point guy on my team'. What's he worth?
It is pretty much how I value him now. If I did consider him significantly less than a consistent 45 pts guy, well then I`d have to agree with the Pens fans saying he is basically TK, wouldn`t I?

I think a 1st plus a little somthing like a okay prospect or a 3rd is fair. I`d also give any D prospect not Morrow plus a 3rd, maybe 2nd depending on which one it is. I don`t like the idea of Despres, but agree with you that it`s not 100% off the table. That`s it. Basically no Sutter, no core players, preferably no Bennett.

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02-06-2013, 08:38 PM
  #421
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
So, you're saying Maatta+ for Kuli is something you could see Nonis doing. Clearly, he'd want a 1st and Shero would want to make it a 2nd. Maybe Shero bends and takes back a 3rd (or a 2nd). Maybe Nonis bends and says o'k to Maatta and a 2nd if Shero adds Teddy Blueger. IF you believe that Nonis would want Maatta as the big chip in a deal for Kuli and IF Shero really were willing to move Maatta to get him, then you have the potential for a deal.
Well Maatta might not exactly be the prospect wanted, but one of comparative value.

A Pitt 2nd could very well be 60th.

A Pitt 1rst could very well be 30th or in other words not a hella more valuable then our 2nd.

That's why i feel DN would push for the high prospect and a 1rst.

The way i see it, the prospect could turn into something as good as Kuli , maybe better or maybe a bust. For that risk a 25---30 pick is in the mix.

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02-06-2013, 08:39 PM
  #422
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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
Realistically, Pens fans cannot expect to get a winger at this point in the season without giving up a roster player. If one of Despres/Niskanen are expendable, that's who they should reasonably expect to get them a winger. At the deadline is when they could get a winger for futures.
Agreed. And, that's how, as a Pens fan, I'd hope Shero does it, holding pretty much all of his big chips to get Crosby's winger.

Question: Do you, as a Leafs fan, prefer Niskanen or Despres?

I wouldn't be thrilled, but I'd give you Kennedy, Niskanen, and a 2nd for Kulemin if you prefer a return based more on roster players. The 2nd is for a draft two rounds deep in typical first round talent. Niskanen at worst would be your #5 (arguably second pairing). Kennedy fills a lower line spot and lets you slot up one of your younger kids until Lupul returns.

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02-06-2013, 08:39 PM
  #423
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i'd be careful getting players off pittsburgh
remember colby armstrong ?

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02-06-2013, 08:41 PM
  #424
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
i'd be careful getting players off pittsburgh
remember colby armstrong ?
Remember Whitney for Kunitz+Tangradi?
Remember Gogo for Neal+Niskanen?
Then you remember Hossa and Dupuis for our junk.

Now Kulemin for Tangradi+Lovejoy.

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02-06-2013, 08:41 PM
  #425
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It is pretty much how I value him now. If I did consider him significantly less than a consistent 45 pts guy, well then I`d have to agree with the Pens fans saying he is basically TK, wouldn`t I?

I think a 1st plus a little somthing like a okay prospect or a 3rd is fair. I`d also give any D prospect not Morrow plus a 3rd, maybe 2nd depending on which one it is. I don`t like the idea of Despres, but agree with you that it`s not 100% off the table. That`s it. Basically no Sutter, no core players, preferably no Bennett.
Just curious, what do you think the odds are of drafting a Nikolai Kulemin 25-30?

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