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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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02-07-2013, 08:03 AM
  #576
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
The weariness makes sense. But on our side we 'should' be hesitant trading for only a prospect or a pick. Because Kule has shown that he can play, and he has looked good beside Malkin.

There would be no gray area. Kule and Malkin will have a instant chemistry.

I'd love to see his full potential, he looks like a dynamite player in spurts. But a guy like Grabovski (who is decent in his own right) has seemed to plateau or hinder his play.
Instant chemistry?

Please stop it with this. Sure, they have played together, but it was in the freakin KHL, NOT the NHL. Different league, different style of play. This chemistry thing only carries weight to me if they played on the same team in the NHL and succeeded. They haven't. You are assuming too much in this instance.

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02-07-2013, 08:04 AM
  #577
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
when you have a lack of high end forward prospects and Gardiner, Reilly, finn, percy etc on D all of ehich are high end prospects it is pretty clear what is perfered
I'm told-- and you can correct me if I'm wrong-- that (a) some high end defensive prospects **** out and (b) that big, mobile high end defensive prospects, in addition to playing for the team that drafts or acquires them, can become pretty good trade bait (see 2nd round pick Alex Gologoski in his 4th year in the league for an example).

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02-07-2013, 08:07 AM
  #578
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People laughing at a late first for Kulemin don't need to look any further than a recent trade...a late 1st for Mike Fisher. You can argue until you're as blue as your team that Kulemin is better than Fisher (he isn't or at least at that time wasn't) but the reality is that they are similar players, and Mike Fisher at that point was more proven.

You always overvalue your own players. The reality of their price on the market is generally different from what you believe.

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Originally Posted by seanlinden View Post
No, it's not. It's a totally one sided deal for the Pens.

Hockey trades involving players that are highly valued by their current team aren't made based on value, they're made on being in both team's best interest. So, what's more "valuable" between Kulemin & a first has absolutely nothing to do with the conversation.

To get Kulemin, you have to do what any team would do to another team to trade a player they want to keep -- make them a better team. Olli Maatta isn't going to do that. Neither is a 1st round pick. At this point in the season, you'd have to look at the Penguins roster. If you're not prepared to help another team in the immediate, all they're going to be willing to trade you are guys who they don't view as part of the plan going forward.

In terms of players that help our team more than Kulemin, the list is pretty short, because the Leafs don't have a lot of needs and do have a lot of depth. You're basically looking at Crosby, Malkin, Neal, Letang, & Fleury. You could make the case for Despres, but as I mentioned earlier, his fit with the Leafs long term is highly questionable. As for Sutter, no. It's not a reflection of value, simply that considering the roster above Kulemin/Sutter, we're substantially better off with the big winger who's shown the ability to score 30 goals than we are with a 3rd line centre.
Toronto has a ton of needs, and they're nowhere near close to competing. A 1st round pick in a deep draft is something that they might find useful to help moving forward.

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02-07-2013, 08:11 AM
  #579
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
when you have a lack of high end forward prospects and Gardiner, Reilly, finn, percy etc on D all of ehich are high end prospects it is pretty clear what is perfered
Tell that to ray shero, defense is like pitching u can never have enough and u can always trade it

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02-07-2013, 08:12 AM
  #580
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
People laughing at a late first for Kulemin don't need to look any further than a recent trade...a late 1st for Mike Fisher. You can argue until you're as blue as your team that Kulemin is better than Fisher (he isn't or at least at that time wasn't) but the reality is that they are similar players, and Mike Fisher at that point was more proven.

You always overvalue your own players. The reality of their price on the market is generally different from what you believe.



Toronto has a ton of needs, and they're nowhere near close to competing. A 1st round pick in a deep draft is something that they might find useful to help moving forward.
Things aren't going to end well for you with this kind of (rational) talk on a message board trade forum.

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02-07-2013, 08:16 AM
  #581
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
Tell that to ray shero, defense is like pitching u can never have enough and u can always trade it
Exactly. Ray is collecting puck moving blueliners because he knows the value is high. One thing is he has to figure out when to deal them at the right time for a bigger piece to the puzzle. He did this with Caputi, even though Poni sucked in Pittsburgh. He did this with Angelo Esposito.

One thing though, this collecting of defensemen has shortchanged the organization as far as forward within the organization. We only have Bennett among the top 10 as far as forward prospects, unless you still think the German is still relevant.

I hope this doesn't turn out like the organization down the road in another sport, where the GM hoarded high end arms and was going to trade them for bats. That is part of the reason he lost his job.

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02-07-2013, 08:17 AM
  #582
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Let TML try to play chicken with Shero. I hope people realize that he's probably kicking the tires on Iginla, Perry, Getzlaf, and a number of other marquee players. I'm willing to bet that the Pens are one of the few teams Iginla would waive his NTC because he and Sid are so tight and he wants a cup badly. After all, they could be losing him to free agency very soon. So if TML wants to play tough guy with Kulemin, go ahead and let them. The Pens have plenty of depth and prospects to entice lots of other teams. I'll take Iginla for Kennedy+Pouliot+1st plus whatever else it takes, thank you very much. Lots of other available talent out there. Don't miss a good deal when it can be gone very quickly!

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02-07-2013, 08:19 AM
  #583
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We agree on so little, but I think we'd agree on this: He **** well better address that line, regardless of what he does with the L2 LW situation.
I don't know why you think we agree on so little. Honestly,the only things I disagree with you on are Shero and Boychuk, the latter being over the short term only.

I don't think Dupuis is a 1st line player, and wish that spot would be addressed first, but both spots are needs and you address your needs as you can.

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02-07-2013, 08:27 AM
  #584
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Originally Posted by sawtooth420 View Post
Let TML try to play chicken with Shero. I hope people realize that he's probably kicking the tires on Iginla, Perry, Getzlaf, and a number of other marquee players. I'm willing to bet that the Pens are one of the few teams Iginla would waive his NTC because he and Sid are so tight and he wants a cup badly. After all, they could be losing him to free agency very soon. So if TML wants to play tough guy with Kulemin, go ahead and let them. The Pens have plenty of depth and prospects to entice lots of other teams. I'll take Iginla for Kennedy+Pouliot+1st plus whatever else it takes, thank you very much. Lots of other available talent out there. Don't miss a good deal when it can be gone very quickly!
We don't have the depth you think we do. We certainly have an abundance of riches with D prospects that everyone would love to get a piece of, except Toronto since they are so stacked.

That said, you don't give up Kennedy + Pouliott + a first + whatever else it takes to acquire a possible rental. That is too much for Iggy.

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02-07-2013, 08:29 AM
  #585
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
Tell that to ray shero, defense is like pitching u can never have enough and u can always trade it
not hating on Matta wouldn't mind adding him to our stable of D at all and if it happens great but not sure we make the best match sense we have high end D prospects but NO high end forward prospects unless you count Kadri who in fairness is playing VERY well

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02-07-2013, 08:31 AM
  #586
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Originally Posted by Cujomi View Post
People laughing at a late first for Kulemin don't need to look any further than a recent trade...a late 1st for Mike Fisher. You can argue until you're as blue as your team that Kulemin is better than Fisher (he isn't or at least at that time wasn't) but the reality is that they are similar players, and Mike Fisher at that point was more proven.

You always overvalue your own players. The reality of their price on the market is generally different from what you believe.



Toronto has a ton of needs, and they're nowhere near close to competing. A 1st round pick in a deep draft is something that they might find useful to help moving forward.
IIRC Fisher was a pending UFA? One has to look at the team that traded the first and where it would likely slot.

And once again I'll state not all 1rst are created equal.

The chances that Pits 1rst will fall into the 26 30 range are very high.

Hell, your 1rst could very likely only be a few slots before our 2nd.

Your 1rst holds only a slightly higher value then teams projected to finish in the basement and their 2nd.

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02-07-2013, 08:31 AM
  #587
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Originally Posted by Anderson55 View Post
Tell that to ray shero, defense is like pitching u can never have enough and u can always trade it
St. Louis got Tarasenko by trading Rundblad.

Even though Martin/Michalek didn't really work out in Pittsburgh, I think they were great moves. Because it gave Pittsburgh the opportunity to move Goligoski for Neal, and have it not negatively affect the blueline.

Same applies to Toronto. I'd have no problem getting a top D prospect in return for Kulemin. We don't need to keep all of them, it simply adds value into the organization, which can be moved in a trade to upgrade another position if needed/wanted, as seen in the above examples.

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02-07-2013, 08:31 AM
  #588
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
We don't have the depth you think we do. We certainly have an abundance of riches with D prospects that everyone would love to get a piece of, except Toronto since they are so stacked.

That said, you don't give up Kennedy + Pouliott + a first + whatever else it takes to acquire a possible rental. That is too much for Iggy.
Not if he resigns. My point being also is that there are some very good potential UFAs that could be had in a trade i.e. Perry, Getz, Iginla

And these are all teams that need to rebuild and could use picks and blue chip prospects which we have an abundance of defensively. It doesn't all start and stop with Kule as much as I'd like him on our team.

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02-07-2013, 08:32 AM
  #589
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
We don't have the depth you think we do. We certainly have an abundance of riches with D prospects that everyone would love to get a piece of, except Toronto since they are so stacked.

That said, you don't give up Kennedy + Pouliott + a first + whatever else it takes to acquire a possible rental. That is too much for Iggy.
I sense you are mocking us but yes on D prospects we are stacked

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02-07-2013, 08:35 AM
  #590
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
We don't have the depth you think we do. We certainly have an abundance of riches with D prospects that everyone would love to get a piece of, except Toronto since they are so stacked.

That said, you don't give up Kennedy + Pouliott + a first + whatever else it takes to acquire a possible rental. That is too much for Iggy.
High prospect + 1rst and then add some before Calg moves iggy out.

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02-07-2013, 08:36 AM
  #591
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Originally Posted by sawtooth420 View Post
Not if he resigns. My point being also is that there are some very good potential UFAs that could be had in a trade i.e. Perry, Getz, Iginla

And these are all teams that need to rebuild and could use picks and blue chip prospects which we have an abundance of defensively. It doesn't all start and stop with Kule as much as I'd like him on our team.
There is no given he would resign. You sound like you would give that up just to get him and hope he resigns. Throw the words conditional on him resigning - something like Kennedy, Pouliott and a second (becomes a first if he resigns).

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02-07-2013, 08:37 AM
  #592
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I believe Pitt gets a top forward that slides right next to Malkin and improves the whole line. With Malkin in a shortened season I believe 20 goals is not far out of the realm of possibility. Great skater, great fore checker and defensively responsible.

Comes down to value and what Pitt would off to solidify there line. I believe he is a huge upgrade to what they have. To the posters that say KHL stats don't count-well they do! Shows ability to mesh with Malkin and play at a high level. It's how all players are ranked. Might as well throw out all stats on player before the NHL and go into the draft blind

What Pitt gets is a bonafide top 6 forward with a solid d-game. You just don't find those in the league and if he was truly available all 29 other teams would want him. My guess is Nonis will want something now in Sutter and something for the future in Matta. Is it a steep price? Yes but you get a guy that gives Pitt two blistering lines now. Windows of opportunity to win a cup don't last forever.

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02-07-2013, 08:40 AM
  #593
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
There is no given he would resign. You sound like you would give that up just to get him and hope he resigns. Throw the words conditional on him resigning - something like Kennedy, Pouliott and a second (becomes a first if he resigns).
I don't think Shero would ever make another Hossa mistake if he even had a hint that a player wouldn't resign. If anything, it'd be a trade quickly followed by a signing.

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02-07-2013, 08:43 AM
  #594
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I can understand why Leafs fans want so much, every fan wants to get the best deal for their player and win the trade.

However, guys like Nikolai Kulemin, I can't see him returning what Maple Leafs fans want, or even what the actual organization wants. I get that he doesn't revolve his game around goal scoring, and that he's solid away from the puck in both zones, and along the boards. So is Pascal Dupuis and I don't think he's worth a 1st and a solid prospect.

If you look at Ray Shero's history with trades, when has he ever overpaid for a roster player? I'm not going to post all of his trades, but look at who he traded for Hossa and Dupuis, or Neal and Niskanen, Shero will not overpay for Nikolai Kulemin.

Realistically, Kulemin should either bring in a 1st round pick straight up, or a prospect like Scott Harrington and a 2nd. He's really not THAT special of a player that he's worth so much to trade for, at least I don't think he is, and if the Leafs want more than a 1st round pick, please keep him, I'm sure they have no problem doing so, and Shero would have no problem looking elsewhere for a winger.

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02-07-2013, 08:43 AM
  #595
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Originally Posted by sawtooth420 View Post
Let TML try to play chicken with Shero. I hope people realize that he's probably kicking the tires on Iginla, Perry, Getzlaf, and a number of other marquee players. I'm willing to bet that the Pens are one of the few teams Iginla would waive his NTC because he and Sid are so tight and he wants a cup badly. After all, they could be losing him to free agency very soon. So if TML wants to play tough guy with Kulemin, go ahead and let them. The Pens have plenty of depth and prospects to entice lots of other teams. I'll take Iginla for Kennedy+Pouliot+1st plus whatever else it takes, thank you very much. Lots of other available talent out there. Don't miss a good deal when it can be gone very quickly!
So what's the good deal? A 20th-30th 1st rounder that they would be lucky if he turned into a Kulemin? The Leaf aren't and don't need to move him, the Pens want him for Malkin, the Leafs don't need anything from the Pens.

Go get Iggy we'll be happy with Kulemin as a Leaf.

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02-07-2013, 08:45 AM
  #596
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I believe Pitt gets a top forward that slides right next to Malkin and improves the whole line. With Malkin in a shortened season I believe 20 goals is not far out of the realm of possibility. Great skater, great fore checker and defensively responsible.

Comes down to value and what Pitt would off to solidify there line. I believe he is a huge upgrade to what they have. To the posters that say KHL stats don't count-well they do! Shows ability to mesh with Malkin and play at a high level. It's how all players are ranked. Might as well throw out all stats on player before the NHL and go into the draft blind

What Pitt gets is a bonafide top 6 forward with a solid d-game. You just don't find those in the league and if he was truly available all 29 other teams would want him. My guess is Nonis will want something now in Sutter and something for the future in Matta. Is it a steep price? Yes but you get a guy that gives Pitt two blistering lines now. Windows of opportunity to win a cup don't last forever.
That is utterly the most ridiculous idea I've seen. Pittsburgh gets Kulemin, a third line guy that scored seven goals last year for one of the best third line centers in the league Brandon Sutter, who plays a two-way game like Kulemin AND one of Pittsburgh's best D prospects in Maatta. Shero would lose his job if that happened. If not, some Penguin fans would be inclined to shoot him. He isn't worth Sutter to Pittsburgh. Not a chance.

Kulemin has one goal in 10 games .. so if traded now, he would get 19 in 38 with Malkin. Stop.

I agree with what he brings to the table. Kulemin is a player that could help Pittsburgh in many ways, but please don't fool yourself. He isn't worth that and he ain't getting 19 goals with Malkin in 38 games. KHL stats aren't relevant here. Its a different league.

Under your line of thinking, Pittsburgh would be absolute fools to trade Pouilott. Because when paired with Joe Morrow at Portland in the WHL, they were a dynamic duo; put up huge points and had major chemistry. Therefore, we have for sure two budding all-stars because they had a major success together in the WHL.

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02-07-2013, 08:45 AM
  #597
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If you look at Ray Shero's history with trades, when has he ever overpaid for a roster player?
Exactly why Kulemin will not be traded to the Pens.

/thread

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02-07-2013, 08:46 AM
  #598
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Harrington/Maatta+1st for Kulemin+2nd

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02-07-2013, 08:49 AM
  #599
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Originally Posted by sawtooth420 View Post
Let TML try to play chicken with Shero. I hope people realize that he's probably kicking the tires on Iginla, Perry, Getzlaf, and a number of other marquee players. I'm willing to bet that the Pens are one of the few teams Iginla would waive his NTC because he and Sid are so tight and he wants a cup badly. After all, they could be losing him to free agency very soon. So if TML wants to play tough guy with Kulemin, go ahead and let them. The Pens have plenty of depth and prospects to entice lots of other teams. I'll take Iginla for Kennedy+Pouliot+1st plus whatever else it takes, thank you very much. Lots of other available talent out there. Don't miss a good deal when it can be gone very quickly!
Wait....did i miss the part in the new CBA that states the Leafs must trade Kuli to Pit??? We aren't playing chicken with anyone, if Shero offers crap....Kuli stays here.

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02-07-2013, 08:50 AM
  #600
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Harrington/Maatta+1st for Kulemin+2nd
no 2nd rounder

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