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Pens eyeing Kulemin

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Old
02-07-2013, 08:54 AM
  #601
Faltorvo
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I can understand why Leafs fans want so much, every fan wants to get the best deal for their player and win the trade.

However, guys like Nikolai Kulemin, I can't see him returning what Maple Leafs fans want, or even what the actual organization wants. I get that he doesn't revolve his game around goal scoring, and that he's solid away from the puck in both zones, and along the boards. So is Pascal Dupuis and I don't think he's worth a 1st and a solid prospect.

If you look at Ray Shero's history with trades, when has he ever overpaid for a roster player? I'm not going to post all of his trades, but look at who he traded for Hossa and Dupuis, or Neal and Niskanen, Shero will not overpay for Nikolai Kulemin.

Realistically, Kulemin should either bring in a 1st round pick straight up, or a prospect like Scott Harrington and a 2nd. He's really not THAT special of a player that he's worth so much to trade for, at least I don't think he is, and if the Leafs want more than a 1st round pick, please keep him, I'm sure they have no problem doing so, and Shero would have no problem looking elsewhere for a winger.
I think the part that is missing is, there is no motivation on the leafs end to move NK.

Your the team thats gunning for a cup, right?

TO is rebuilding, right?

NK is on a great contract for 2 seasons and plays the game well, the way our coach wants it. He is only 26 , we have no reason to move him out.

We are not the ones shopping him.

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02-07-2013, 08:55 AM
  #602
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This deal was gone when Staal got traded. It's not gonna happen.

Realistically the closest we ever got to this trade was when Kulemin was coming off his career year and he was valued on the team almost as high as Kessel. I think people were clamoring for a Kulemin +++ for Jordan Staal. While some Pens fans went for it, no Leaf fan wanted any part of it because of Kulemin's career year. Hindsight.

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02-07-2013, 08:56 AM
  #603
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Originally Posted by LEAFANFORLIFE23 View Post
no 2nd rounder
That's essentiallly two firsts for kulemin. Not going to happen. The second would have to stay.

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02-07-2013, 08:58 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
Instant chemistry?

Please stop it with this. Sure, they have played together, but it was in the freakin KHL, NOT the NHL. Different league, different style of play. This chemistry thing only carries weight to me if they played on the same team in the NHL and succeeded. They haven't. You are assuming too much in this instance.
Fact is. Him and Malkin are buddies. We aren't going to trade him to a team that will put him directly in a success role , for a measly pick or 'maybe' prospect.

If we were trying to pawn him off on you, sure. He hasn't proved to be a consistent enough NHL player to give up the farm. But the fact is your GM likely wants him with Malkin and I'm sure Geno has been chirping in his ear.

Your idea of value, playing style etc. is just as much speculation as what I have been saying. None of us know the going-ons.

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02-07-2013, 08:58 AM
  #605
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Harrington/Maatta+1st for Kulemin+2nd
Doubt we list a 2nd, maybe a 3rd.

Be real here MP your first could very well only be 2,3,4 slots before our 2nd.

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02-07-2013, 09:01 AM
  #606
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Originally Posted by OCPenguin View Post
That is utterly the most ridiculous idea I've seen. Pittsburgh gets Kulemin, a third line guy that scored seven goals last year for one of the best third line centers in the league Brandon Sutter, who plays a two-way game like Kulemin AND one of Pittsburgh's best D prospects in Maatta. Shero would lose his job if that happened. If not, some Penguin fans would be inclined to shoot him. He isn't worth Sutter to Pittsburgh. Not a chance.

Kulemin has one goal in 10 games .. so if traded now, he would get 19 in 38 with Malkin. Stop.

I agree with what he brings to the table. Kulemin is a player that could help Pittsburgh in many ways, but please don't fool yourself. He isn't worth that and he ain't getting 19 goals with Malkin in 38 games. KHL stats aren't relevant here. Its a different league.

Under your line of thinking, Pittsburgh would be absolute fools to trade Pouilott. Because when paired with Joe Morrow at Portland in the WHL, they were a dynamic duo; put up huge points and had major chemistry. Therefore, we have for sure two budding all-stars because they had a major success together in the WHL.
I know. I watch all kinds of junior games with guys that light it up and do nothing in the NHL. Tons! You get a NHL player, not a junior and a guy that has shown that can find the back of the net and has history with Malkin. I am sure it is Malkin that has been pushing for his friend. Is it steep? Absolutely but I also know you get a good soldier, never rocks the boat, says nothing, great team mate and forechecks like hell and would make that line into something special. So you can have line 1A and line 1AA on your team. How many teams can dress a line up like that.

Don't say it is ridiculous. 40 years of watching hockey I can say lesser players have been traded for more. There is no need for Toronto to move him. Not our job to make your team better in a march to the Stanley Cup. We seem to have done that very well for Boston ;-)

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02-07-2013, 09:01 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by waitin425 View Post
That's essentiallly two firsts for kulemin. Not going to happen. The second would have to stay.
Not all 1rst are created equal mate.

Your first next draft is really nothing more then a fancy tittled 2nd.


Last edited by Faltorvo: 02-07-2013 at 09:13 AM.
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02-07-2013, 09:01 AM
  #608
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
I think the part that is missing is, there is no motivation on the leafs end to move NK.

Your the team thats gunning for a cup, right?

TO is rebuilding, right?

NK is on a great contract for 2 seasons and plays the game well, the way our coach wants it. He is only 26 , we have no reason to move him out.

We are not the ones shopping him.
I'm not disagreeing, but that doesn't mean he's worth 2 first round picks. Even if he's not being shopped or the Leafs want to keep him, doesn't make his value that much higher, does it mean they will get a better return than if he was a rental? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that the Leafs have to or will screw another team in a trade either.

Like I said, a 1st straight up or Harrington and a 2nd is fair enough value for a complimentary winger, he's not some game breaking winger.

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02-07-2013, 09:02 AM
  #609
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Doubt we list a 2nd, maybe a 3rd.

Be real here MP your first could very well only be 2,3,4 slots before our 2nd.
Haha so true. 1st/2nd round picks from different teams have different value.

A 2nd round pick from Toronto isn't worth all that much less than a 1st round pick from Pittsburgh (in all likelihood).

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02-07-2013, 09:08 AM
  #610
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Haha so true. 1st/2nd round picks from different teams have different value.

A 2nd round pick from Toronto isn't worth all that much less than a 1st round pick from Pittsburgh (in all likelihood).
Correct.

I have been saying for a bit - HF should scrap the "1st round pick" notion and move to a number.

I know at this point it is hard to gauge where they will draft.

Seeing:
1st for 1st + 2nd
or
20th for 30th + 31st

is a totally different trade.

So when someone offers their 1st , and a 2nd is included from a lottery team. Is it even worth it?

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02-07-2013, 09:09 AM
  #611
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I know. I watch all kinds of junior games with guys that light it up and do nothing in the NHL. Tons! You get a NHL player, not a junior and a guy that has shown that can find the back of the net and has history with Malkin. I am sure it is Malkin that has been pushing for his friend. Is it steep? Absolutely but I also know you get a good soldier, never rocks the boat, says nothing, great team mate and forechecks like hell and would make that line into something special. So you can have line 1A and line 1AA on your team. How many teams can dress a line up like that.

Don't say it is ridiculous. 40 years of watching hockey I can say lesser players have been traded for more. There is no need for Toronto to move him. Not our job to make your team better in a march to the Stanley Cup. We seem to have done that very well for Boston ;-)
It is utterly ridiculous. Sutter is a very responsible two way forward; maybe one of the top two third line centers in the game and has been labeled Jordan Staal Lite. I'm not sure he is as lite as people think. He scored 16 goals centering a line of garbage in Carolina last year. That is nine more than what Kulemin did with lesser talented guys around him. He plays defense equal to Kulemin. He plays with an edge - every Sutter did or does. Adding one of our best two-way defensive prospects to the mix is totally ridiculous.

I have watched alot of hockey in my days as well. Yes, lesser players have been traded for more. That doesn't mean Pittsburgh has to grossly overpay for a guy that dropped 23 goals in one year's time and could have his lowest trade value as a Leaf (that isn't a knock, but he isn't the 30-goal scorer anymore ... had seven last year and is on pace for another low total this year). Kulemin does alot of good things well. He is a crowd favorite and I get why. He works hard. That said, Sutter matches him in many categories, plus he is very effective on the PK and does well in the face-off circle. That is a gross overpayment. Keep Kulemin.

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02-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  #612
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Wait....did i miss the part in the new CBA that states the Leafs must trade Kuli to Pit??? We aren't playing chicken with anyone, if Shero offers crap....Kuli stays here.
All I'm saying is that there are LOTS of other players out there that Shero can pull some trade magic on. Keep Kuli. God bless him and TML. I'll gladly kick the tires on Iginla, Perry, Getz, Horton, et al than worry about pleasing the TML fanbase. I'd rather have any of those other players anyway, but Kuli is a good player and I'm sure most pens fans would be happy to obtain him. Just saying there are plenty of other options too. I don't think too many Pens fans would be heart broken if he stays with the Leafs. Shero has pulled more than enough trade magic before that people need to realize the market doesn't start or stop with Kuli. Good luck to ya!

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02-07-2013, 09:12 AM
  #613
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I'm not disagreeing, but that doesn't mean he's worth 2 first round picks. Even if he's not being shopped or the Leafs want to keep him, doesn't make his value that much higher, does it mean they will get a better return than if he was a rental? Absolutely, but it doesn't mean that the Leafs have to or will screw another team in a trade either.

Like I said, a 1st straight up or Harrington and a 2nd is fair enough value for a complimentary winger, he's not some game breaking winger.
Thats the point you keep glossing over.

There IS extra value built into trading for a player that has 2 years on his contract as opposed to a rental.

Your buying for sure 2 seasons and 2 PO runs, not 1, that my friend holds value.

Actually you are wrong with the assessment that not wanting to trade him raises his value, it surely does.

Lets say for example you have a car and it's book value is 1k and you love this car.

Now what if some neighbor knocks on your door and says, hey i know the book value on this car is 1k, I'll buy it.

You love this car, you need a car, are you gonna sell it to him for 1k or ask for 2k?

The onus is on the neighbor to turn you into a motivated seller , whats "fair" has little to do with it.

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02-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #614
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I don't know why you think we agree on so little. Honestly,the only things I disagree with you on are Shero and Boychuk, the latter being over the short term only.

I don't think Dupuis is a 1st line player, and wish that spot would be addressed first, but both spots are needs and you address your needs as you can.
Completely agree.

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02-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #615
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Originally Posted by dannyboy8920 View Post
Correct.

I have been saying for a bit - HF should scrap the "1st round pick" notion and move to a number.

I know at this point it is hard to gauge where they will draft.

Seeing:
1st for 1st + 2nd
or
20th for 30th + 31st

is a totally different trade.

So when someone offers their 1st , and a 2nd is included from a lottery team. Is it even worth it?
Well you damn well know thats how GMs and staff add it up.

They gauge the likely hood of the picks slotting and then assess it's value.

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02-07-2013, 09:16 AM
  #616
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Originally Posted by mpp9 View Post
Harrington/Maatta+1st for Kulemin+2nd
Honestly, those two picks could be within 10-15 spots of one another.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Doubt we list a 2nd, maybe a 3rd.

Be real here MP your first could very well only be 2,3,4 slots before our 2nd.
Agreed, but IF Shero is giving up Maatta AND a 1st, then I think he'd want back a pick in the top 40, give or take.

Maatta, 1st, 2nd for Kulemin, 2nd?

EDIT: That's assuming there's a 12-15 spot distance between picks.

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02-07-2013, 09:17 AM
  #617
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This thread is full of people who have never watched Kulemin play aside from the Leafs v Penguins games.

He is never getting traded for a 1st or some long shot prospects. If you want him, its gonna be for an NHL ready dman who has top 3 potential. The only player in Pittsburgh's system that fits the bill is Morrow. Its Morrow or bust.

Makes absolutely no sense for us to trade a do-it-all 26 year old winger for a 1st rounder. We are not doing a 500 year rebuild.

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02-07-2013, 09:21 AM
  #618
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Originally Posted by 66-29-33 View Post
Done!
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
This thread is full of people who have never watched Kulemin play aside from the Leafs v Penguins games.

He is never getting traded for a 1st or some long shot prospects. If you want him, its gonna be for an NHL ready dman who has top 3 potential. The only player in Pittsburgh's system that fits the bill is Morrow. Its Morrow or bust.

Makes absolutely no sense for us to trade a do-it-all 26 year old winger for a 1st rounder. We are not doing a 500 year rebuild.
Toronto does not need another defenseman.

You don't move Kulemin unless he's in a package for an obvious team hole(1C, 1PF, or 1G), and another prospect defenseman is not one of those positions. Especially considering the Leafs already have two handfuls worth of decent blueline prospects either being developed or already knocking on the door(Blacker, Rielly, Finn, Percy..etc), and of course Toronto will always draft more defenseman.

We don't need Maata or Morrow. Period. End of story.

Now looking back at Sutter is highly worthwhile. If Kulemin's in some kind of multi-player package for Sutter, that makes much more sense.


Last edited by Pierre Gotye: 02-07-2013 at 09:28 AM.
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02-07-2013, 09:25 AM
  #619
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Honestly, those two picks could be within 10-15 spots of one another.
Estimates like that are weighted on likelyhoods.

I'd honestly say the % odds lay on the side that your 1rst and our 2nd are higher if one comes to the conclusion that they will be 8 or less apart.

I project Pitt to finish top 4 in the reg season and as high a % odds to have the 30th pick.

And i project my leafs to be what we have for that last 5 years and that bottom 5 territory.

And a trade for Kuli for 2 futures only moves it closer to my projections.

Take that for what it's worth.

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02-07-2013, 09:27 AM
  #620
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I don't see Pittsburgh and Toronto being good trading partners for Kulemin, Toronto doesn't need other Defense prospect and sure doesn't need Eric Tancradi and a 2nd rounder

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02-07-2013, 09:29 AM
  #621
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Toronto does not need another defenseman.

You don't move Kulemin unless he's in a package for an obvious team hole(1C, 1PF, or 1G), and another prospect defenseman is not one of those positions. Especially considering the Leafs already have two handfuls worth of decent blueline prospects either being developed or already knocking on the door.

We don't need Maata or Morrow. Period. End of story.

Now looking back at Sutter is highly worthwhile. If Kulemin's in some kind of multi-player package for Sutter, that makes much more sense.
Dumoulin is going to be ready for top 4 minutes long before any of our D-men not playing in the NHL right now. He'd be getting minutes right now if Despres wasn't getting his chance. Build a package around him if you want.

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02-07-2013, 09:31 AM
  #622
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Originally Posted by Chandrashekhar Limit View Post
This thread is full of people who have never watched Kulemin play aside from the Leafs v Penguins games.

He is never getting traded for a 1st or some long shot prospects. If you want him, its gonna be for an NHL ready dman who has top 3 potential. The only player in Pittsburgh's system that fits the bill is Morrow. Its Morrow or bust.

Makes absolutely no sense for us to trade a do-it-all 26 year old winger for a 1st rounder. We are not doing a 500 year rebuild.
Actually, Kulemin looks at his best playing against the Pens. Take out his one game against them from this year, and he's got 1g, 2a, and a -4 in his other 9 games.

Kind of supports the theory that there's the Kulemin you get when he's on the ice with Malkin (for or against, the guy who's a 50+ point player) and when he's not on the ice with Malkin. And, that's really the problem with assigning trade value to Kulemin.

Conversely, something for my fellow Pens fans to consider: Ever watch Kulemin DEFEND Malkin. Forget the KHL chemistry. Watching him DEFEND Malkin tells me how well he reads what Malkin does on the ice.

Look, if people think that Kulemin will be resigned, is worth the 3M+ it will take, and won't consider leaving Toronto, then you keep him short of an offer of Maatta/Harrington and a 1st.

If you think he's not going to be in the plans beyond next year (by his choice or by Nonis' choice given what the new contract price tag will be), then maybe you consider taking slightly less.

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02-07-2013, 09:34 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by Pierre Gotye View Post
Toronto does not need another defenseman.

You don't move Kulemin unless he's in a package for an obvious team hole(1C, 1PF, or 1G), and another prospect defenseman is not one of those positions. Especially considering the Leafs already have two handfuls worth of decent blueline prospects either being developed or already knocking on the door(Blacker, Rielly, Finn, Percy..etc), and of course Toronto will always draft more defenseman.

We don't need Maata or Morrow. Period. End of story.

Now looking back at Sutter is highly worthwhile. If Kulemin's in some kind of multi-player package for Sutter, that makes much more sense.
Kulemin is at best the third most valuable piece for a high end player like that. The days of him being one of two big pieces went out the window 18 months ago. Even if he starts scoring a little more for the rest of the year, his value this summer would be downgraded by his only having one year left on his deal and being an impending UFA who could want the 4M+ he'd ask for if he were scoring more (that's a tough investment for a GM given the streaky scoring history).

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02-07-2013, 09:35 AM
  #624
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What Kulemin is worth in a trade aside, I don't see what being buddies with Malkin has to do with anything. Colby Armstrong was Sid's bff on the team and Shero moved him out of town on the Hossa deal.

It's nice to be able to play with your friends, sure, but these are grown ass men getting paid a lot of money to do their jobs and be professionals. I don't see the fact that Kulemin and Malkin are friends playing into it whatsoever. Now if Shero wants to consider the chemistry they had in the KHL that's another matter entirely, but he's not stupid enough to overpay so that Malkin can have his friend as a teammate.

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02-07-2013, 09:36 AM
  #625
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Originally Posted by Faltorvo View Post
Estimates like that are weighted on likelyhoods.

I'd honestly say the % odds lay on the side that your 1rst and our 2nd are higher if one comes to the conclusion that they will be 8 or less apart.

I project Pitt to finish top 4 in the reg season and as high a % odds to have the 30th pick.

And i project my leafs to be what we have for that last 5 years and that bottom 5 territory.

And a trade for Kuli for 2 futures only moves it closer to my projections.

Take that for what it's worth.
I don't disagree, although I'll leave the exact bookmaking to you.

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