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HOH Top-40 Goalies Voter Record - Canadiens1958

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:37 PM
  #126
quoipourquoi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
I'm of the mind that there's little to distinguish between playoffs and regular season play, with the primary differences being usually tougher competition and less numbers of penalties (which probably more or less counter each other's effect on shot quality).

I think it's much more informative to view Patrick Roy's 1992-93 campaign as 82 games of 0.909 save percentage than as 62 of 0.894 and 20 of 0.929. Or Brian Elliott's most recent season as 46 games, 0.934.
I know how YOU feel about it, but that's not how EVERYONE ELSE feels about it. Again, in this project, voters have ranked playoff performance extremely high. And given this entire line of discussion is about trying to understand the hockey media's perception of Dominik Hasek, wouldn't it be prudent of us to try to think like them? They place an even higher emphasis on playoff performance than we do!

If you only want to look at a save-for-save cumulative report, here it is, using your philosophy of providing zero difference between a regular season game/save and a playoff game/save. But keep in mind that if one is giving more preference to the playoff games than the equal weight of a regular season game - as I am speculating the hockey media does - it can become apparent why the hockey media would have a lesser view of Hasek than HFBoards despite awarding him six 1st Team All-Stars, as he would almost certainly lose a June 1997 and June 2001 vote, and possibly lose a June 1995 vote.


1995
Dominik Hasek
46 GP, 20-18-7, 2.28, .924, 5 SOs
Ed Belfour
58 GP, 31-22-3, 2.25, .912, 6 SOs
Martin Brodeur
60 GP, 35-15-6, 2.17, .910, 6 SOs


1997
Dominik Hasek
70 GP, 38-21-10, 2.26, .930, 5 SOs
Martin Brodeur
77 GP, 42-19-13, 1.85, .927, 12 SOs
Patrick Roy
79 GP, 48-22-7, 2.30, .925, 10 SOs


2001
Dominik Hasek
80 GP, 44-30-4, 2.10, .920, 12 SOs
Patrick Roy
85 GP, 56-20-7, 2.06, .919, 8 SOs
Curtis Joseph
79 GP, 40-31-8, 2.34, .916, 9 SOs


Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
A playoff game is Much more significant than a regular season game, obviously. But are six playoff games more important than a whole season? That's the problem with weighing playoffs too highly. Looking at a regular strong solid career, it ends up being 600 games versus 80 or something.
I'm not exactly isolating a 2007 Marty Turco here.

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02-11-2013, 12:43 PM
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Exam time or life in general follows similar or less favourable.ratios.

Ratio of class time to exam time often is less favourable than playoff to regular season time. Audition time ratio to practice time is less favourable. Performer has to do it when called, not at some leisurely pace. The if the world could only listen to Bill singing in the shower everyday argument does not work well.

Defining moment time is always a very small fraction of the mundane drudge time.
And I think this is largely how the hockey media feels about goaltenders, given its celebration of playoff goaltenders on these types of lists. And I don't think they're wrong to do so either.

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02-11-2013, 01:37 PM
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadiens1958 View Post
Exam time or life in general follows similar or less favourable.ratios.

Audition time ratio to practice time is less favourable. Performer has to do it when called, not at some leisurely pace. The if the world could only listen to Bill singing in the shower everyday argument does not work well.
You pick out one out of thousand jobs and conclude from this that 'life' follows that ratio?

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02-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #129
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Originally Posted by unknown33 View Post
You pick out one out of thousand jobs and conclude from this that 'life' follows that ratio?
I've worked in both office jobs and retail and in both those fields how you perform in crunch time counts for more than how you perform at other times.

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02-11-2013, 02:58 PM
  #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I've worked in both office jobs and retail and in both those fields how you perform in crunch time counts for more than how you perform at other times.
Of course games are more important in the playoffs than in the regular season.

But I don't think that players all of a sudden get better or worse in the playoffs. That means that placing increased emphasis on a smaller sample of work can lead to incorrect conclusions.

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02-11-2013, 03:09 PM
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Of course games are more important in the playoffs than in the regular season.

But I don't think that players all of a sudden get better or worse in the playoffs. That means that placing increased emphasis on a smaller sample of work can lead to incorrect conclusions.
I guess you've never heard of the term "clutch play". The phenomena DOES exist.....in all sports. Some players kick it into a higher gear when the pressure's on, some players crack and choke.

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02-11-2013, 03:10 PM
  #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Of course games are more important in the playoffs than in the regular season.

But I don't think that players all of a sudden get better or worse in the playoffs. That means that placing increased emphasis on a smaller sample of work can lead to incorrect conclusions.
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

The NHL regular season is not the shower. You have to be the best 1% of 1 % in the world to play there, millions of dollars in playoff home game revenue is at stake, as well as next year's job for the players.

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02-11-2013, 03:31 PM
  #133
Canadiens1958
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Playoffs

Quote:
Originally Posted by GuineaPig View Post
Of course games are more important in the playoffs than in the regular season.

But I don't think that players all of a sudden get better or worse in the playoffs. That means that placing increased emphasis on a smaller sample of work can lead to incorrect conclusions.
Two issues separate the regular season from the playoffs.

Taking the present structure into effect - 82 regular season games plus 28 playoff games potentially.

Stamina becomes an issue. Do you determine who is best after 80% or a 100% of the. Not a question of getting better or worse but sustaining ability over a longer period of games.

Adaptability becomes an issue. Regular season a player may play the same opponent two consecutive games. During the playoffs players can play the same opponent upwards of seven games. Measuring adaptability two games does not produce the same picture than measuring adaptability after seven games. Some players do not show the same versitility and flexibility over seven games as others.

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02-11-2013, 03:31 PM
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by seventieslord View Post
Exactly the point I was trying to make.

The NHL regular season is not the shower. You have to be the best 1% of 1 % in the world to play there, millions of dollars in playoff home game revenue is at stake, as well as next year's job for the players.
Exactly. Making it to the NHL, let alone being a star, means you're one of 150 or so (less if you only count people who actually make it to 100 games) out of the millions of kids the same age who played hockey growing up. The mentally weak got filtered out long ago (I guess my curtain call was at age 10 when I couldn't crack the roster of the local AA team).

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02-11-2013, 03:45 PM
  #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SaintPatrick33 View Post
I guess you've never heard of the term "clutch play". The phenomena DOES exist.....in all sports. Some players kick it into a higher gear when the pressure's on, some players crack and choke.
But who's to say the playoffs are the only time 'clutch play' is requried? The pressure put on Hasek to perform miracles on a nightly basis in Buffalo was immense. No Hasek, no playoffs.

The same can be said for numerous professions. The pressure is on 24/7.

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02-11-2013, 03:45 PM
  #136
Mike Farkas
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Pro/advanced scouting.

In the regular season, a club is less likely to make wholesale adjustments against an unorthodox player. No strong reason to adjust, play your game, let the chips fall. Like adjusting to a knuckleball pitcher in baseball, you don't sit there and practice for a week leading up to a knuckleballer...you just play through it and hope it doesn't effect you in the next game. If you hit him, you hit him...if you don't, well, there's 161 other games coming up...

In the playoffs, goalies are studied hard, weaknesses are exposed by those that can pick them out. When you see a player seven times AND it matters in a big way, now you'll make adjustment to him. The goalie doesn't necessarily have to get better or worse, it's how does he adjust to the adjustment. Adaptability.

If the adjustment cannot be made by the goaltender, the team must adjust to protect him. 2010 Flyers protected Michael Leighton as best they could, but ultimately, he was just too weak. They dragged a sub-NHL goalie to the Finals and ultimately, he gave up the season in the most expected fashion - with a horrendous goal. Some teams are able to protect iffy goalies better than others, as we've especially seen in recent times.

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02-11-2013, 04:12 PM
  #137
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by Hockey Outsider View Post
True, but keep in mind that Roy played significantly more playoff games in a higher-scoring era. Based on adjusted save percentage, Roy is ahead of Hasek (but it's close). Still the qualitative factors (Roy maintaining his excellent level of player over more than double the sample size; and generally advancing farther in the playoffs therefore likely facing tougher opposition) show that Roy was the better playoff performer.
I agree.

I was just throwing the numbers out there in response to the posts about Hasek's playoff performances. To me they were giving the impression he was well short of Roy, Brodeur and Belfour in the playoffs.

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02-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
To the last question, the answer is absolutely yes. See SC Finalist goalies from 1967-2004, then compare from 2006-2012. Goaltender went from most important to least important position in recent years as seen by the plateauing of talent and caliber of goalies on impactful teams. Largely plug and play.
Yet in the 7 seasons since the last lockout 3 goalies have won the Conn Smythe.

The 7 seasons prior to the lockout only 2 goalies won it and one was on the losing team.

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02-11-2013, 04:24 PM
  #139
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Yet in the 7 seasons since the last lockout 3 goalies have won the Conn Smythe.

The 7 seasons prior to the lockout only 2 goalies won it and one was on the losing team.
I'm not sure what that proves really. Two were a good story (and both rather disagreeable in my opinion) and the other was given rightfully to the guy that dangled a carrot on the stick higher than anyone else in recent times. I would have probably gone Brind'Amour, Chara, Quick for the years in question. But, that matters not, it also doesn't change my point in the least.

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02-11-2013, 04:34 PM
  #140
Dennis Bonvie
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
And I think this is largely how the hockey media feels about goaltenders, given its celebration of playoff goaltenders on these types of lists. And I don't think they're wrong to do so either.
I think its the main reason Giguere didn't win the Conn Smythe in 2007. If the media gave it to him, he's of had 2. He was only 29 and playing for what looked like a solid team for years to come. What if he won another? That would throw their whole process out of whack. After all, no one in the media was proclaiming Giguere an elite goaltender up to then.

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02-11-2013, 04:37 PM
  #141
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This critique of Hasek's playoff performance it totally flawed and over-stated. Statistically speaking, he is better in the PO in both GAA and SV% over that of his rivals. Both stats improve from regular season to the PO for Hasek. The only measure where he's not is the WINS category and that's more a measure of the team than it is the goalie.

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02-11-2013, 04:43 PM
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chi777 View Post
This critique of Hasek's playoff performance it totally flawed and over-stated. Statistically speaking, he is better in the PO in both GAA and SV% over that of his rivals. Both stats improve from regular season to the PO for Hasek. The only measure where he's not is the WINS category and that's more a measure of the team than it is the goalie.
You have to adjust for the eras, though.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hasek.html

Hasek has a 57.2% support-neutral win percentage in the playoffs (an estimate of how much he'd win if his teams allowed a league-average number of shots, and faced an average goaltender each night).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html

Roy is at 58.1% (postseason).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/brodeurm.html

Brodeur is at 54.2% (postseason).

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02-11-2013, 04:50 PM
  #143
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Originally Posted by Mike Farkas View Post
I'm not sure what that proves really. Two were a good story (and both rather disagreeable in my opinion) and the other was given rightfully to the guy that dangled a carrot on the stick higher than anyone else in recent times. I would have probably gone Brind'Amour, Chara, Quick for the years in question. But, that matters not, it also doesn't change my point in the least.
Were you not the one who asked once if your posts at least made me think? Guess that was meant to be a one-way street.

Chara wasn't even the best defenseman on the Bruins in the playoffs, Seidenberg was. Ask any reasonably knowledgeable Bruins fan and they will tell you that. They will also tell you who the Conn Smythe winner was.

If anyone else deserved it for Carolina, it was Cory Stillman. But once again, the right guy got it.

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02-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #144
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Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
You have to adjust for the eras, though.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hasek.html

Hasek has a 57.2% support-neutral win percentage in the playoffs (an estimate of how much he'd win if his teams allowed a league-average number of shots, and faced an average goaltender each night).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html

Roy is at 58.1% (postseason).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/brodeurm.html

Brodeur is at 54.2% (postseason).
And that sounds about right.

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02-11-2013, 05:24 PM
  #145
seventieslord
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Stillman? Now I've heard everything.

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02-11-2013, 05:28 PM
  #146
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Taco MacArthur View Post
You have to adjust for the eras, though.

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/hasek.html

Hasek has a 57.2% support-neutral win percentage in the playoffs (an estimate of how much he'd win if his teams allowed a league-average number of shots, and faced an average goaltender each night).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/roy.html

Roy is at 58.1% (postseason).

http://hockeygoalies.org/bio/brodeurm.html

Brodeur is at 54.2% (postseason).
That's all well and good but I'm not really trying to say Hasek was the best playoff goalie of all time. My point that he was essentially statistically equal to that of his peers in Roy and Bordeur who had better teams in the playoffs, most years.

Yet it's stuff like playoff performance which was used by the OP to rank Hasek 7th all time. It's completely absurd. It's an over-emphasis to the point where it's difficult to take it seriously.

What the OP is saying is that despite Hasek having almost as many Vezina's as Roy and Bordeur combined, 2 Hart's, 2 Pearsons, being statistically better in SV% and GAA in both the regular season and playoffs over everyone on the list ahead of Hasek, that Hasek is the 7th best goalie. That's not even mentioning Hasek's international play in which I believe he got the best of Roy.

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02-11-2013, 05:36 PM
  #147
Dennis Bonvie
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Stillman? Now I've heard everything.
See a lot of the Hurricanes that year in the playoffs?

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02-11-2013, 05:44 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
See a lot of the Hurricanes that year in the playoffs?
If anything, I'd compare Stillman (from that year) to Seidenberg (from the Bruins Cup).

The guy whom you know would never have gotten it, but was arguably the best at its position.

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02-11-2013, 05:51 PM
  #149
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Originally Posted by MXD View Post
If anything, I'd compare Stillman (from that year) to Seidenberg (from the Bruins Cup).

The guy whom you know would never have gotten it, but was arguably the best at its position.
Thank you, very well stated.

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02-11-2013, 07:39 PM
  #150
Mike Farkas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bonvie View Post
Were you not the one who asked once if your posts at least made me think? Guess that was meant to be a one-way street.

Chara wasn't even the best defenseman on the Bruins in the playoffs, Seidenberg was. Ask any reasonably knowledgeable Bruins fan and they will tell you that. They will also tell you who the Conn Smythe winner was.

If anyone else deserved it for Carolina, it was Cory Stillman. But once again, the right guy got it.
Who says that it didn't make me think? I thought about it and dismissed it It's not a bad point, but it doesn't change what I said is all.

I also would give a lot of props to Dennis Seidenberg, he's right there with Chara, IMO. In terms of out-right goals, Seidenberg probably saved more than Chara. But therein lies the rub, you get a lot of guys that are close and "yeah, but" and this and that...and you just default give it to the winning goalie.

Like that Super Bowl where Tom Brady won the MVP by throwing for like 120 yards or whatever it was...it was just a "well, we can't give it to a loser and no one on the Patriots sticks out...ah, give it to the QB, he's a cute story anyhow..." Same deal.

Cory Stillman wouldn't be in my top 3 from that playoffs certainly. Not that he played poorly, but certainly Brind'Amour, Pronger and Staal should be ahead of him and that's even including the actual winner.

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