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Old
02-07-2013, 03:39 PM
  #401
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Originally Posted by Aerchon View Post
Love your post. Well written and anti confrontational.

But.

With Gagner I actualy think more people look the other way at his turn overs and poor defensive play. Especialy this year where he is playing so well offensively. His numbers have always been decent. But despite solid points as a #2 center enough people see his weakness in 2/3's of the rink.

The puck dies on his stick more often than most players. Probably only a little more than say Hall, but the difference is that Hall typicaly loses the puck in the offensive zone as opposed to Gagner who loses it in the defensive or neutral zone which leads to scoring chances. Like last nights turn overs it is almost like he has no perifirial vision and opposing players just skate up to him and strip him of the puck.

Having said all that. Gagner has been improving. Very slowly but very surely. Last year his defensive play got a bit better and this year his offensive play is a bit better. When he hits his peak at 25-28 with the way he is trending he will be considered a good #2 center.

It would be very nice if we can get some size down the middle tho. Even a great number 3 guy behind Gagner who could sub out Gagner every once in a while on the 2nd when he is slumping or in a tight game with a lead.
Good post as usual.

Yeah, theres games where one can clearly see whether Gagner is "feeling it" or not. in other words times where he's very confident with the puck, his movements, challenging D aggressively, vs being a step behind both on the ice and in his thoughts.
Seems to happen to the vast majority of players. Players with smaller stature and less skating stride you tend to note it a lot more. If Gagner's out of position its a big deal. If J Schultz is out of position he's incredibly quick at closing space and has a great reach.

I do note the amount of times Gagner still rushes up ice and thinks himself into a cold freeze. But often enough what he does there is simply send the puck deep which is a less bad alternative when no entry is immediately available. In these instances one senses that Gagner often lacks the split second reaction time of truly elite players, although weirdly when he's feeling it he approaches that "in the zone" timing. So he's a curious player, and evidently one of the most curious.

Hard for anybody to wrap their head around a player that gets 8pts one night and can go pointless for 6games. Or can have cold stretches but times like this where he's on the board in 10 straight games.

I can only imagine that Gagner is more frustrating to the fanbase than say Eberle because Jordan has better hands and his confidence doesn't leave him for as long.

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02-07-2013, 03:40 PM
  #402
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Originally Posted by jmco View Post
Gotta love this Gregor quote to start the show "Whitney didn't play bad last night"
Are you serious? Whitney played like garbage. I'll take 2 garbage cans on the ice last night instead of Whitney
I take it the first hour was nothing but Gregor ranting about how anyone who thinks Whitney played poorly is an idiot?



Last edited by Tarus: 02-07-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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02-07-2013, 03:52 PM
  #403
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Originally Posted by Bryanbryoil View Post
Gagner's offensive game is in high gear, it really is and has been for say 7/10 games this season. I take no offense to his offensive contributions they have been solid. I agree that he has been stronger for the most part which is another good thing in his favor. However I still worry about his faceoff ability, this isn't a 2nd or 3rd year pro that we're talking about and maybe it'd be a good idea to see where he stacks up against centers his age and younger in this regard to see if he just sucks at it or if it's somewhat normal for guys his age? I still think that he is very overrated defensively this is likely the biggest area that we will disagree on, that and his brain farts.
Nice post.

Its good when we get through some hubric and debris on both our parts and just hunker down to a good discussion. Like I stated in response to the post above Gagner's hard to peg for anybody. This is what he looks like now, what does he look like next month, or after?

That said Gagner is steadily racheting up his game and finding ways to be effective and productive that weren't always there before. Some specifics in offensive zone the puck battles as mentioned, getting better at sealing puck on the boards and keeping puck in zone. Also playing the puck not as a pass but to a certain area if nobody is open. More consistently making a good dump if nothing is available.

Want you to look at one thing as well. Note the high Gagner dump(over everybodies head) which when all else fails is his more regular response to heat. Its not pretty, but better than turning puck over. He's evidently practices this a lot as its good weight, not resulting in icing, and allows a chance to regroup. With elite winger speed sometimes its also been a potential long bomb. yeah, still at hail mary stage
He's also had the maturity this year to reverse puck, start over, to come back couple times on a breakout to try to get timing right, and to provide better puck support in general.

Things I still don't like:

Faceoffs obviously.
Positional redundancy, i.e. being in the exact spot another linemate is(this appears to happen to Gagner as much as any vet player here)
Confidence variance.
Anticipation variance.




Quote:
Good post, if we could get a big and solid 2 way center to play behind RNH and Gagner it might be able to work especially if we have home ice advantage and can match Gagner up against softer competition while RNH or our 3C handles the toughest assignments.
I like when a poster can come in and we both disagree with each other but can find a mutual agreement through a third poster. One of the things I like about messageboards is how much other opinions can add to the discussion.

good stuff overall

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02-07-2013, 04:10 PM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Tarus View Post
I take it the first hour was nothing but Gregor ranting about how anyone who thinks Whitney played poorly is an idiot?

yeah that sums it up. Now its Brownlee defending whitney. I don't know why the radio guys care so much. He had a $**+ game & fans don't like it! The guy can't skate I don't care how nice he is to the media or a "good guy in the room" who cares!!! Its hockey & right now Whitney is terrible when playing it. This is a business & in business you want to make money. You make money by Winning in hockey and Whitney isn't helping this team win.

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02-07-2013, 04:15 PM
  #405
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yeah that sums it up. Now its Brownlee defending whitney. I don't know why the radio guys care so much. He had a $**+ game & fans don't like it! The guy can't skate I don't care how nice he is to the media or a "good guy in the room" who cares!!! Its hockey & right now Whitney is terrible when playing it. This is a business & in business you want to make money. You make money by Winning in hockey and Whitney isn't helping this team win.
I don't know what team gregor has been watching this year but he gets on fans for complaining when whitney makes ONE mistake in a game and saying he's been playing decent all year! It's ridiculous. I know know some thought he was playing fine in the first couple games but for me i have been noticing/complaining about his positioning, skating and battling one on one since the first game against vancouver. I just do not like his overall body of play this year. And gregor thinks he was playing well

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02-07-2013, 04:23 PM
  #406
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In regards to the media defending Whitney, and guys like Brownlee, or Gregor its largely guys with grandiose self importance that figure they know more than any of us rube fans and like to take a very counter intuitive position to show how much smarter they are than the average bear.

I swear the cool stats kids do this all the time as well. As in lets take the least obvious player, say ex Flames Brendan Morrison, and try to make him or Horcoff statistically sound like the best player since Sidney Crosby. Which the stat crowd was doing for years.

Which alternately perhaps demonstrates that common sense isn't so common.

Potential irony notwithstanding.

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02-07-2013, 04:39 PM
  #407
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haha Media personalities

Reminds me of this morning when Neilsen/Fraser was giving it hard to someone who didn't catch their sarcasm when they said that "Chad Johnson is one of the most hated men in sports. WHY WOULD THEY HATE THE PHOENIX GOALIE??" And someone texted in saying "You guys, they meant Ochocinco, not the goalie. You should know this."

So Fraser/Neilsen are all "DUH WE WERE SARCASTIC!! SORRY YOU DIDN'T CATCH THAT!!"

Someone also mentioned that Saku Koivu is the most hated.
Then someone else says "Sorry I didn't mean Saku Koivu is the most hated, I meant Roger Clemens. I blame my iphones autocorrect."

"HOW CAN THAT BE AUTOCORRECTED! BS!! THATS NOT TRUE!! YOU ARE LYING!!"

You just missed the sarcasm train on that one, Nielsen/Fraser...

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02-07-2013, 04:47 PM
  #408
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Ah ha ha

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02-07-2013, 04:52 PM
  #409
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Unfortunately I don't get much opportunity to watch the games (had to cancel cable for money reasons).

But did Whitney have a bad game, or a bad play?

No disrespect to the fanbase as a whole, but I consider us to be primarily emotional in our analysis (which is fine, we're fans), and with Whitney in the crosshairs I think it'll be easier to look at it and be predisposed to placing extra weight on the poor play (because you're looking for it) or predisposed to overlooking it (simply in protest of all those that are hating on it).

I agree that Whitney was struggling to start the season (and Potter too), but I do think that as a fanbase we can get caught thinking we're better at the analysis than we probably are (which is a boring, lame, neutral position of mine - though I do recognize I am no expert either).

The primary motivator of my concern being, naturally, the emotional influence on the assessment. I expected our team to be a "middle of the pack" type of team at best, and right now they are pretty much that. This means we'll probably win some games we probably shouldn't, and lose some games we probably shouldn't too.

JMO.

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02-07-2013, 04:57 PM
  #410
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Originally Posted by jmco View Post
That would be a great gritty line, but who do we put in the middle now?
Belanger? All they need is a face off win then go from there. Dump & chase is something missing with this team.

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02-07-2013, 04:57 PM
  #411
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I didn't see Whitney skate with the puck for more than 1.5 strides.
He never even showed up in the o-zone.
He got rid of it as soon as he got possession, either pass, dump or giveaway.

It's like he doesn't know how to skate at all anymore.
The least mobile defenseman I have ever seen.

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02-07-2013, 05:26 PM
  #412
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It's been really refreshing to hear Jason Strudwick's take on things. He's not a scared sheep scared of getting his press pass taken away and has enough ego to say what he wants and just out it out there.

He was defending whitney early but even he has come around to saying that he's not playing well and pinpointing what he needs to do. Gregor has become embarrasing lately defending the horrible vets.

Look at hemsky and gagner, smid. They are vets and they are just going out there and giving everything. It's not hard for a fan to figure out who gives a crap and doesn't and who's washed up and who isn't.

Whitney's been done for a long time. This talk of changed attitude is just him denying to himself that he simply can't play well anymore. I believe he's trying but just doesn't have anything.What Jagr did to him last night guys have been doing to him all year. I mean if a guy is playing this crappy in his UFA year what hope do we have for him being any better?


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02-07-2013, 05:43 PM
  #413
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This team needs a change in mindset. I know this is a hockey forum but we can take a bit of a lesson from basketball...Dwight Howard of the Lakers is apparently milking an injury (he could be playing through the pain, but the injury is there nonetheless. Shoulder rotator cuff, same one that Hall here played through for 4 years.) What Kobe told him is:

"“We don’t have time for (Howard’s shoulder) to heal. We need some urgency. [D]wight worries too much about what people think. I told him, ‘You can’t worry about that. It’s holding you back.’ He says, ‘OK, OK, OK,’ but it’s always hovering around him. He just wants people to like him. He doesn’t want to let anyone down, and that gets him away from what he should be doing.”

“(Howard) has never been in a position where someone is driving him as hard as I am, as hard as this organization is. It’s win a championship or everything is a complete failure. That’s just how (the Lakers) do it. And that’s foreign to him. When you think about it, there aren’t many organizations that look at it that way. There are only two that can really honestly say that’s what they live by — Los Angeles and Boston. We don’t have three years. We’ve got this year.”


It's clear that after years at the bottom, mediocrity has become acceptable with this team, even when it is apparent they could do better. We need to adopt this mentality-it's all or nothing. We need to get guys out of their comfort zones and drive them to do their best.

I remember Matt Greene talking last year to a local radio host after they won the Stanley Cup. He said that the biggest change that happened when Darryl Sutter was hired, was mentality. Suddenly, it wasn't get by on their talent anymore, Sutter was a hard nosed son a *****, and a lot of guys in the room did not like that initially, but he forced every single one of them out of their comfort zones, so that they were playing 110%.

This is why they went on the incredible run from the bottom of the league to squeak into 8th, and then rolled through many elite teams en route to the cup. It wasn't easy, it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't done on talent alone, but it was worth it.

Now, I'm not saying this team is close to good enough for a cup. But the last 3 games were games they could have won (I'll glve them a pass for last night because of the injuries..we had 2 natural centres on the team and one of them was a 5'8 160 pound AHLer) . And ones we will need to win if we ever want to become a winning team.



Edit: link to lakers story: http://tracking.si.com/2013/02/07/ko...ry-lakers-nba/

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02-07-2013, 06:05 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by jmco View Post
Gotta love this Gregor quote to start the show "Whitney didn't play bad last night"
Are you serious? Whitney played like garbage. I'll take 2 garbage cans on the ice last night instead of Whitney
Didn't listen to Gregor but Stauffer was surprisingly critical of Whitney today (for him, at least). Bob didn't initiate the criticism, it was more him responding to callers, etc. but he didn't really try to be an apologist either. It was good to hear.

And BTW, he both blamed Whitney for the OT goal and said that Dubnyk would like that one back. Double criticism on one play! Shocking, indeed.

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02-07-2013, 06:24 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by jmco View Post
Gotta love this Gregor quote to start the show "Whitney didn't play bad last night"
Are you serious? Whitney played like garbage. I'll take 2 garbage cans on the ice last night instead of Whitney
Meh I thought he looked better last night then he did for the first 8 games of the season. He was being more aggressive and less tentative then he had been in games previous. Obviously didn't play Jagr right at the end of the game but we're talking about one of the greatest players to ever play hockey... a guy who is incredibly hard to knock off the puck.

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02-07-2013, 06:44 PM
  #416
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After reading these comments by Krueger, I wonder if the change in system is affecting the entire defence since it sounds like it's different than before. The 3 most solid d-men (Petry, Smid and Nick Schultz) look uncomfortable at times so far, especially Petry. They all finished last season strongly, so I got nothing else to explain their woes this year. Justin Schultz had no NHL experience before, so his brain may be like a sponge out there, or the system he played under before was similar, or, he's just dammed good. Whitney, on the other hand, sounds like a slow learner, and it's likely double the work for the guys that are not fleet of foot.


"We need competition. We need players to be pushed," Krueger said. "When you look at the Ryan Whitney situation, we're working hard with him to have it clear the kind of game we want to play here. The game has changed. We're a high-speed team that wants to maintain that speed. There's a lot more work for the defencemen to do right now than in the past with our pressure forecheck and with the pressure we want to put on teams."

Whitney played a little more than 16 minutes Wednesday. On the game-winning goal 1:46 into overtime, it was Whitney's man (Jaromir Jagr) that danced around him before picking the corner on Devan Dubnyk.

"All we can do to help players when they're scratched is to understand why, to work on these things and continue to get better," Krueger said. "The competition is big and it's tough to stay in this lineup if you don't play the game that we want to play."

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02-07-2013, 06:52 PM
  #417
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Originally Posted by Shanahanigans View Post
This team needs a change in mindset. I know this is a hockey forum but we can take a bit of a lesson from basketball...Dwight Howard of the Lakers is apparently milking an injury (he could be playing through the pain, but the injury is there nonetheless. Shoulder rotator cuff, same one that Hall here played through for 4 years.) What Kobe told him is:

"ďWe donít have time for (Howardís shoulder) to heal. We need some urgency. [D]wight worries too much about what people think. I told him, ĎYou canít worry about that. Itís holding you back.í He says, ĎOK, OK, OK,í but itís always hovering around him. He just wants people to like him. He doesnít want to let anyone down, and that gets him away from what he should be doing.Ē

ď(Howard) has never been in a position where someone is driving him as hard as I am, as hard as this organization is. Itís win a championship or everything is a complete failure. Thatís just how (the Lakers) do it. And thatís foreign to him. When you think about it, there arenít many organizations that look at it that way. There are only two that can really honestly say thatís what they live by ó Los Angeles and Boston. We donít have three years. Weíve got this year.Ē


It's clear that after years at the bottom, mediocrity has become acceptable with this team, even when it is apparent they could do better. We need to adopt this mentality-it's all or nothing. We need to get guys out of their comfort zones and drive them to do their best.

I remember Matt Greene talking last year to a local radio host after they won the Stanley Cup. He said that the biggest change that happened when Darryl Sutter was hired, was mentality. Suddenly, it wasn't get by on their talent anymore, Sutter was a hard nosed son a *****, and a lot of guys in the room did not like that initially, but he forced every single one of them out of their comfort zones, so that they were playing 110%.

This is why they went on the incredible run from the bottom of the league to squeak into 8th, and then rolled through many elite teams en route to the cup. It wasn't easy, it wasn't pretty, and it wasn't done on talent alone, but it was worth it.

Now, I'm not saying this team is close to good enough for a cup. But the last 3 games were games they could have won (I'll glve them a pass for last night because of the injuries..we had 2 natural centres on the team and one of them was a 5'8 160 pound AHLer) . And ones we will need to win if we ever want to become a winning team.



Edit: link to lakers story: http://tracking.si.com/2013/02/07/ko...ry-lakers-nba/
Yeah, the Oilers need to rush more guys back from injury.

I know that's probably not the point you were making, but Kobe pressuring Howard to come back while he's still losing feeling in his legs is kind of ridiculous.

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02-07-2013, 06:54 PM
  #418
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I don't think the problem with Whitney has anything to do with systems. He can't skate. He's the slowest guy on the ice every night. I feel for him, but he simply can't keep playing. I'd like to see Peckham in there if Fistric can't go, the Oilers could use another banger.

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02-07-2013, 07:45 PM
  #419
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Hey everyone.

Not really sure where to ask this, but I tried to doing some research but couldn't find anything.

What are the chances Khabibulin plays this weekend? Think he goes against Columbus on Sunday or Detroit on Saturday?

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02-07-2013, 08:02 PM
  #420
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Hey everyone.

Not really sure where to ask this, but I tried to doing some research but couldn't find anything.

What are the chances Khabibulin plays this weekend? Think he goes against Columbus on Sunday or Detroit on Saturday?
Yeah heard on the local radio here that he's expected to play one of those games. If I had to bet, it'd be the Columbus one.

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02-07-2013, 08:03 PM
  #421
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I don't think the problem with Whitney has anything to do with systems. He can't skate. He's the slowest guy on the ice every night. I feel for him, but he simply can't keep playing. I'd like to see Peckham in there if Fistric can't go, the Oilers could use another banger.
I would agree with the bolded, but the uptempo system of Krueger's isn't doing him any favours either.

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02-07-2013, 08:21 PM
  #422
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The only problem with the Lakers story is that they clearly have some of the best players in the league at their position.

They went out and got Steve Nash, and acquired Dwight Howard, to add to Kobe and Gasol.

Yes they want to win now, because they went out and got the pieces TO win now.

Kobe is talking up the media. The Lakers aren't always like this, and haven't been even in his time there. They had some pretty mediocre seasons in the middle of the last decade, including some where Kobe really brought into question his leadership skills (one game in particular he refused to shoot, just to show all those that were criticising him to not shoot the ball so much). The Lakers weren't thinking "we gotta win this year" during those times.

Of course, when you get a disgruntled Howard that says "Trade me, but only to New York or LA" it's a bit like getting a star player gift wrapped to you. The problem of course is whether or not ego is an issue when you get too many stars on the team. I figure it's up to Nash to actually help show them that it can be done. If so, they could go on a serious roll.

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02-07-2013, 08:34 PM
  #423
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yeah that sums it up. Now its Brownlee defending whitney. I don't know why the radio guys care so much. He had a $**+ game & fans don't like it! The guy can't skate I don't care how nice he is to the media or a "good guy in the room" who cares!!! Its hockey & right now Whitney is terrible when playing it. This is a business & in business you want to make money. You make money by Winning in hockey and Whitney isn't helping this team win.
Marc Spector called out Whitney on his show. If you want spoon fed pap, listen to Bob, Dan, Gregor etc.. if you want to hear it like it is, the only guy who does that anymore is Spector.

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02-07-2013, 10:35 PM
  #424
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We've only got to watch the games with our own eyeballs to see what's going on.

You'd have to be from the Iraqi Ministry of Dis-Information to twist Whitney's play into anything but the crap that it is right now.

That goes for all the play on the ice from all the players. (Meaning we can see for ourselves how they are all doing... not that they are all crap).

These media talking heads have eyes no better than ours to see what's actually happening... they obviously just have to fill their timeslots so they don't always just say the obvious "Whitney blows" and leave it at that because they'd have nothing to discuss.

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02-08-2013, 11:25 AM
  #425
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Dunno where to post this since no GDT yet:

Dan Tencer ‏@dantencer
Hartikainen with RNH and Eberle...Hall with Gagner and Hemsky...Yakupov with Belanger (IR) and Paajarvi...Eager with Smyth and Petrell...

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