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2/7/13 7PM Draft Lottery Riggers vs. Draft Lottery Losers

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Old
02-08-2013, 01:48 AM
  #601
Brad Tolliver
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Hunter's was "just good enough" defense and PK more than perfected to Cup level.

The problem is that you are under the assumption that this roster as it is could maintain or even exceed the level of defense they displayed while simultaneously increasing offensive pressure. Because Hunter sure as hell didn't.

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02-08-2013, 02:01 AM
  #602
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Of course they could have put up more offensive pressure. It may have been a balancing act but come on, Hunter didn't even try to. Going for empty nets alone would be an increase in pressure. Not going full turtle when up by one is increasing pressure. He did not try to expand his system. Whether that's because of how little time he had on hand or because that's all he was capable of is up to interpretation. I think he realized that the playoffs were no time to experiment and went with the absolute safest thing. But it could have absolutely been built on. Boucher played an exceptionally trappy even strength style yet built a potent power play on top of it, as did Martin.

Even without more offensive pressure our offense was deflated due to Ovechkin having linemates that couldn't make offensive plays with him and Semin being snakebit/whatever. We could have scored more in that system with a properly constructed top 6 rather than Ovechkin-Laich-Brouwer/Johansson-Backstrom-Semin. I think it was something absolutely worth building on, at the very least committed man to man and aggressive PK parts. This team cannot play zone and expect to get anywhere. They simply don't have it in them.

His "just good enough" defense kept all but one game to one goal. Not once could a team pull away from us. No collapse at any point where you can see the players having completely lost it, unlike with Boudreau. And that was with Schultz-Wideman getting minutes. Take them away and replace them with a competent bottom pairing like LA had and it's cup level.

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02-08-2013, 02:21 AM
  #603
Brad Tolliver
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Hunter started parking the bus long before Game 1 of the Bruins series. They weren't playing Cup level then either.

You can't just look at the defense and offense as completely separate units where adjustments to one unit won't affect the other. The defense was just good enough to win half the games when working as a unit with the offense. That's not Cup level. If the system was only a few tweaks away from winning the Cup, then why didn't the assistants land NHL head coaching jobs including the one that Hunter left?

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02-08-2013, 02:30 AM
  #604
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
Of course they could have put up more offensive pressure. It may have been a balancing act but come on, Hunter didn't even try to. Going for empty nets alone would be an increase in pressure. Not going full turtle when up by one is increasing pressure. He did not try to expand his system. Whether that's because of how little time he had on hand or because that's all he was capable of is up to interpretation. I think he realized that the playoffs were no time to experiment and went with the absolute safest thing. But it could have absolutely been built on. Boucher played an exceptionally trappy even strength style yet built a potent power play on top of it, as did Martin.

Even without more offensive pressure our offense was deflated due to Ovechkin having linemates that couldn't make offensive plays with him and Semin being snakebit/whatever. We could have scored more in that system with a properly constructed top 6 rather than Ovechkin-Laich-Brouwer/Johansson-Backstrom-Semin. I think it was something absolutely worth building on, at the very least committed man to man and aggressive PK parts. This team cannot play zone and expect to get anywhere. They simply don't have it in them.

His "just good enough" defense kept all but one game to one goal. Not once could a team pull away from us. No collapse at any point where you can see the players having completely lost it, unlike with Boudreau. And that was with Schultz-Wideman getting minutes. Take them away and replace them with a competent bottom pairing like LA had and it's cup level.
I think some of it had to do with how low the teams hockey IQ is. There was only so much that could be done with this bunch is a sort time.

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02-08-2013, 07:12 AM
  #605
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why does coaching always dominate the latter stages of a post-ass whipping GDT? i come in here the day after and continue to be amazed that we're discussing something that makes next to no difference at this point. replacing oates is way down the list of priorities. it starts with a new GM, and the next 5-6-7 tasks are all replacing X player and Y player, not the coach.

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02-08-2013, 07:18 AM
  #606
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Discussing Ovi the C yesterday, right on cue he showed signs of a captain. A little late but better late than never.

He goes and cross checks one of the Pens punk Dmen, and ends up among 4 pens, and here comes the cavalry... carrying candy canes and lollipops. That must have really burned his britches. Its no surprise to me to hear he was mad.

I know all remember the support Dale had. He would get this stick up in someones face, Berube Stevens all the boys would come flying in. Its not even just Dale, if it was Bondra, or Oates, your horses are going to battle, you get your ass in there and help him.

I completely see him as an on ice captain, not a behind the scenes vocal locker room type. So when he shows his C, the players have to rally around that, in any way that they can.

They basically turtled. What a bunch of wusses.

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02-08-2013, 07:18 AM
  #607
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Originally Posted by drunksuperhero View Post
why does coaching always dominate the latter stages of a post-ass whipping GDT? i come in here the day after and continue to be amazed that we're discussing something that makes next to no difference at this point. replacing oates is way down the list of priorities. it starts with a new GM, and the next 5-6-7 tasks are all replacing X player and Y player, not the coach.
Truth

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02-08-2013, 07:22 AM
  #608
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Their puck possession is a smokescreen. It mostly comes when rival teams aren't fighting back. Ottawa pretty much took a nap for half the game then boop, 3 goals.
I disagree. Their puck possession has been good but they really are not burying the chances they get.

Conversly it seems that almost every good chance (or even bad chance) the opponent gets ends up in the back of the net.

It really isn't as bad as it looks. Sometimes things just don't go your way and your confidence gets diminished as a result.

This is NOT on Oates. GMGM is buring through coaches left and right and I would be furious if he let Oates go and then not instilled himself on the bench.

Again..if people think Oates needs to go and GMGM does that then I would want to see GMGM coaching this team and hope Ted mandates that.

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02-08-2013, 07:48 AM
  #609
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I think we talk Oates because in the short term, only the coach can make a difference. On game day.

George sees no flaws with the team, and few to no one expect him to do anything before the trade deadline.

Ted does even less. 15 years. No one is expecting a new GM.

There is a place to bash George. Drilled down to game day, lets talk Oates.

I will start by saying I am miffed at Crabb at center.

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02-08-2013, 07:51 AM
  #610
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Didn't like pulling Neuvirth.

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02-08-2013, 07:55 AM
  #611
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I think we talk Oates because in the short term, only the coach can make a difference. On game day.

George sees no flaws with the team, and few to no one expect him to do anything before the trade deadline.

Ted does even less. 15 years. No one is expecting a new GM.

There is a place to bash George. Drilled down to game day, lets talk Oates.

I will start by saying I am miffed at Crabb at center.
I think Oates is trying whatever he can and hope that it sticks. He really doesn't have much to work with and all our centers seem brutal on face offs.

There is no coach that can turn this team around I am afraid...well unless we get a Hunter Hockey type guy who plays 50/50 hockey. That way we can still finish out of the playoffs and avoid a lottery pick...ummmm...

Oates needs a goalie who can stop a puck. Then he could use some forwards who can finish. And mainly he needs a dman or two who actually hit.

Notice how without Erskine our D looks like its in dissarray?

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Originally Posted by swimmer77 View Post
Didn't like pulling Neuvirth.
Why? He let in 2 brutal goals on pretty much 2 of the only shots Pitt had in the first half of that game. After that 2nd one I was certain heads were hanging low and Oates tried to get them going but it didn't work. It was the right move however.

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02-08-2013, 08:03 AM
  #612
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You can't really blame this on Oates. I compare it to Shannys first year in DC. The FA market was brutal and not many guys were signed for the long haul but one thing he should and does get a ton of credit for is shipping out the guys that didnt belong here. Granted it cost us a 36 million dollar ******** cap penalty but his roster turn over those first two years was huge. It's exactly what this team needs. Sad thing it will never get done. There's no way I can see Oates saying to GMGM "I need such and such players". "I want this guy and that guy" and GMGM getting it done. Just not going to happen. First and foremost the "shake up" needs to be GM. Bring in a new GM who has the balls to make moves. Let Oates handpick his guys and go from there. It's how teams are built in any sport. Handcuffing your coach never ever works.

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02-08-2013, 08:07 AM
  #613
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Holtby had impressive numbers as a pinch hitter.

I think it was worth a try, getting Holtby into a game without having to think about it all day first.

While we got shelled after that, I don't think Holtby let in any softies. The team just flat out did not get any boost from the change, in fact it seemed to have the opposite effect.

I miss the days of stopping the game and warming up the goalie change. Bathroom and beer break!

Man, a goalies job is tough. They get paid peanuts.

Agreed Rouse, Erskine out does not help our situation. Maybe Oates will give him the A.

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02-08-2013, 08:12 AM
  #614
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Notice how without Erskine our D looks like its in dissarray?

As predicted. GMGM's failure to address the post-Finals disintegration of the defensive core has extended well over a decade. Guys like Erskine are auxiliary players to McPhee when they should be staples.

If you're going to play an offensive, forechecking style you need to be solid on the back end so your forwards can play up and not worry too much about getting caught behind the play. You also need strong bodies to aid the goalie and win battles along the boards, so the rush the other way can start in the first place. A team full of d-men who can make a pretty outlet pass and almost nothing else is nearly useless.

BB was able to get away with not having a great defensive core for a while because the "young guns" were just outscoring everyone. That dried up in the playoffs, when the style changed. The Montreal series was the beginning of the end.

Hunter applied the band aid of compensatory team defense since the d-men and undersized, soft centers couldn't handle it. They OVERACHIEVED as a result.

This year, with a "hybrid system" that should theoretically put more pressure and responsibility on the defensemen, the true nature of this team without Hunter's team-wide compensation is on full display. Those of us who thought BB and GMGM were being propped up by Ovechkin and one or two other "guns" seem to be proven right.

So you have a choice...go back to a Hunter-esque trap style to stop the bleeding, just open it up offensively and let the chips fall, or use a balanced "hybrid" system but with a roster more suited to it. That means at least two solid d-oriented defensemen, and maybe a goalie.

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02-08-2013, 08:21 AM
  #615
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Hunter was Hunter for all the good reasons. He played his style he wanted, sat who he wanted, and didn't take sh?t from GMGM. Hunter knew he had SOME talent, not a lot. Played a style to win games not to impress us the fans and he did it. Didn't take sh?t from Ovi, Semin, sat who he needed. GMGM and Ted didn't think his style fit the money paying fans and Hunter said" thank you, but no thank you"

And now we are here.

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02-08-2013, 08:22 AM
  #616
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRouse View Post
Why? He let in 2 brutal goals on pretty much 2 of the only shots Pitt had in the first half of that game. After that 2nd one I was certain heads were hanging low and Oates tried to get them going but it didn't work. It was the right move however.
Because Holtby isn't a world beater. I know part of being a professional athlete is being ready when called upon. Holtby didn't get pulled in the other Pit game when many thought he should have been. Now you are only losing by one and the goaltender gets pulled. I don't think anyone was ready for that. So what happened afterwards?

Malkin had all the time in the world while Carlson was tied up with whomever was in front. Malkin can score if the goalie has perfect position. The other goal it looked like Neuvy was trying to anticipate a shot coming from the other side. They just were not the "leakiest" goals I have ever seen. And you don't seem willing to give him credit for some nice saves in the first period.

In summary the way things are going it's all starting to be pinned on the young goalies. It's a team game. Minimizing penalties would help. Finishing some scoring opportunities would help. Backstrom? Ovechkin? Green? Carlson? Five on five those guys haven't shown much. Yet a new guy like Ribeiro comes in and leads the team in scoring overall.

Erskine out? Um........they lost 6 - 3 at home with Erskine in to the same team and were gifted a goal. Need more Erskines!


Last edited by swimmer77: 02-08-2013 at 08:25 AM. Reason: Erskine............
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02-08-2013, 08:28 AM
  #617
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Erskine out? Um........they lost 6 - 3 at home with Erskine in to the same team and were gifted a goal. Need more Erskines!
Erskine was suspended 3 games after the Philly game last Friday. He was not on the ice against the Pens in either loss.

Caps are 2-2-1 this season with Erskine in (their ONLY 2 wins, and all 5 of their points). They are 0-6 without him.

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02-08-2013, 08:36 AM
  #618
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Erskine was suspended 3 games after the Philly game last Friday. He was not on the ice against the Pens in either loss.

Caps are 2-2-1 this season with Erskine in (their ONLY 2 wins, and all 5 of their points).
You're right my bad. Keep him in if at all possible because the Caps were streaking. He's been in for losses and wins against crappy teams. Bailed out of Pit games. LOL

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02-08-2013, 08:40 AM
  #619
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Erskine was suspended 3 games after the Philly game last Friday. He was not on the ice against the Pens in either loss.

Caps are 2-2-1 this season with Erskine in (their ONLY 2 wins, and all 5 of their points). They are 0-6 without him.
I've been thinking the same thing... they played better with Brashear around too. I think this team needs to have real enforcer, but on the other hand he really wouldn't have any "talent" to protect any more...

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02-08-2013, 08:40 AM
  #620
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You're right my bad. Keep him in if at all possible because the Caps were streaking. He's been in for losses and wins against crappy teams. Bailed out of Pit games. LOL
Yeah lol. 2-2-1 is a point a game and borderline playoffs this season. 0-6 is worst in the league.

Slight bit of difference there.

Is it all because of Erskine? Can't say for sure one way or the other. But the record is there to consider.

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02-08-2013, 08:51 AM
  #621
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I've been thinking the same thing... they played better with Brashear around too. I think this team needs to have real enforcer, but on the other hand he really wouldn't have any "talent" to protect any more...
I totally agree.

Ovi was our enforcer last night.

There is something to be said for playing with more confidence when you know your big brother is standing right behind.

Outside of Ovi Erskine and Hendricks, everyone looks and plays scared.

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02-08-2013, 09:03 AM
  #622
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Oh, and don't listen to the spin from Joe B and especially Locker when forming your opinions. I'm sure most of you know this, but they're trying to keep you interested.

I had to facepalm last night when Locker gushed that the Caps were finding so much space in the 3rd period because the Pens stopped playing. Well no ****, dumbass. The Pens were up 4 goals and the game was essentially over. Both teams were pretty much running out the clock, with the Caps hoping to pot a few goals for the hell of it. Otherwise they could've just taken turns skating to the center line and dumping the puck for 20 minutes, it wouldn't have mattered. The Pens were not "playing right into the Caps hands" as Locker said. They were sitting back in victory.

They'll keep up the narrative that the team is playing well but for a few lapses, which is the company line (see: Oates' post-game remark about leaking oil for just a few minutes).

This is a throwaway season and you are being milked for cash as long as possible.

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02-08-2013, 09:19 AM
  #623
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Originally Posted by RandyHolt View Post
I think we talk Oates because in the short term, only the coach can make a difference. On game day.

George sees no flaws with the team, and few to no one expect him to do anything before the trade deadline.

Ted does even less. 15 years. No one is expecting a new GM.

There is a place to bash George. Drilled down to game day, lets talk Oates.

I will start by saying I am miffed at Crabb at center.
Do you actually believe this?

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02-08-2013, 09:22 AM
  #624
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I disagree. Their puck possession has been good but they really are not burying the chances they get.
Their puck possession, and whatever fancystats that may get cited, appears much better than it actually is. When the opposition is sleepwalking through games they look adequate enough but there's hardly any stops and starts to this team. They're the laziest team in the league by far. Collectively they've become a group of gliders...soft and largely useless. Little wonder that when the pace is picked up by the opposition they utterly crumble because that's all they've got to offer. Both of their wins were against struggling teams in a funk (and missing some key players). Even the NJD OTL began with the Devils letting the Caps get back into it. They've folded against anything resembling stiff opposition.

If I put anything on Oates it's that he has not upped their apparent conditioning level whatsoever from Game 1 until now. The penalties have gone down but if their endurance doesn't improve by the end of the month then they're in for a historically brutal season.

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02-08-2013, 09:27 AM
  #625
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Building off of what Langway said, look at the only games we've even been in. Vanek is the only player on Buffalo who isn't struggling, and he was missing for our game against them. New Jersey gave the Capitals powerplay after powerplay after powerplay until the Caps tied it up and sent it to OT (and it took an extended 5-on-3 to do it). Outside of Bryzgalov and Simmonds, Philadelphia is struggling and Erskine sent Simmonds to the locker room in the 1st period.

The Caps got wrecked Pittsburgh twice, folded in the third against Tampa, and got dominated by Montreal. The only halfway decent team we stood up against was Ottawa.

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