HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Western Conference > Central Division > Colorado Avalanche
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2
Notices

Starting 2013-14 Roster (Want the Fan's eye view/hope/goal))

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
07-03-2013, 11:34 AM
  #676
Hans Landaskog
Registered User
 
Hans Landaskog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Denver
Country: United States
Posts: 6,903
vCash: 500
Most teams would die to have our center problems, just saying.

Hans Landaskog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 11:39 AM
  #677
Colorado Sports Fan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Denver, Colorado
Country: United States
Posts: 6,700
vCash: 500
I said good when I should have said great. Obviously he's been good since he came here. But he had 1 GREAT/World Class season. It is what helped lead to the hold out.

And if he sees himself as more than a 3rd line center or hates the idea of playing on the wing. He'll be gone as Sakic has made it clear he wants a Dutchy/Mac 1-2 punch.

Colorado Sports Fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 11:41 AM
  #678
RockLobster
Moderator
Damnit, Jian Yang!
 
RockLobster's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Kansas
Country: Germany
Posts: 22,922
vCash: 844
Quote:
Originally Posted by henchman24 View Post
He is, but is he more than a #3C on this team moving forward? Duchene is obviously ahead, and if MacKinnon comes anywhere near his potential, he will be ahead as well.
True, I'm not disputing that (the MacKinnon thing), but MacK hasn't played a game in the NHL yet, let's let Roy ease him into the NHL like he's planning on doing.

And true, we have too many Centers, but it's a nice problem to have in the end.

But I'll never believe that Ryan O'Reilly should be the one traded. As I said during the whole O'Reilly fiasco he's a guy that a team will win Cups with...which is why I believe that he'll ultimately be fine with a transition to the Wing. He's tough in the corners, he has an underrated shot, he's constantly working to improve...I think that he will thrive with Duchene and Parenteau.

__________________

There's only one thing I hate more than lying: skim milk, which is water that is lying about being milk.
RockLobster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 11:44 AM
  #679
henchman24
Mr. Meeseeks
 
henchman24's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Posts: 26,241
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by RockLobster View Post
True, I'm not disputing that (the MacKinnon thing), but MacK hasn't played a game in the NHL yet, let's let Roy ease him into the NHL like he's planning on doing.

And true, we have too many Centers, but it's a nice problem to have in the end.

But I'll never believe that Ryan O'Reilly should be the one traded. As I said during the whole O'Reilly fiasco he's a guy that a team will win Cups with...which is why I believe that he'll ultimately be fine with a transition to the Wing. He's tough in the corners, he has an underrated shot, he's constantly working to improve...I think that he will thrive with Duchene and Parenteau.
This is exactly what I hope will happen. If he comes out and has a 20g 40a season at LW, while anchoring our PK unit. Sign him long-term at 6+m.

henchman24 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 11:50 AM
  #680
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
There are two problems with Stastny and ROR going forward:
1. I'm sure both of them are not too interested in staying with the team and play on the 3rd line.

2. In a cap world you can't pay your #3C $5-6M long term. We can do it this year or maybe even next year until Mac proves he can handle #2C but then it is too much money for a #3C. Money is much better spent on higher end wingers for our top two Cs. So if we keep Stastny and play ROR on the wing eventually Stastny will have to be moved to #3C. Same thing if we trade Stastny and keep ROR. ROR could be our #2C for a while but then he will have to be moved to #3C.

With that being said these two guys are very very good top two lines players so if they want to remain with the team and they don't mind being move to the wings, they could be very good options for the team. At those positions the team could afford to retain one or both of them and it gives very good options as well when one of Duchene or Mac gets hurt.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 11:54 AM
  #681
Hans Landaskog
Registered User
 
Hans Landaskog's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Denver
Country: United States
Posts: 6,903
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
There are two problems with Stastny and ROR going forward:
1. I'm sure both of them are not too interested in staying with the team and play on the 3rd line.

2. In a cap world you can't pay your #3C $5-6M long term. We can do it this year or maybe even next year until Mac proves he can handle #2C but then it is too much money for a #3C. Money is much better spent on higher end wingers for our top two Cs. So if we keep Stastny and play ROR on the wing eventually Stastny will have to be moved to #3C. Same thing if we trade Stastny and keep ROR. ROR could be our #2C for a while but then he will have to be moved to #3C.

With that being said these two guys are very very good top two lines players so if they want to remain with the team and they don't mind being move to the wings, they could be very good options for the team. At those positions the team could afford to retain one or both of them and it gives very good options as well when one of Duchene or Mac gets hurt.
I don't see too much of an issue considering we have already managed to get them good minutes despite having them on 3 different lines.

Hans Landaskog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:00 PM
  #682
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hans Landaskog View Post
I don't see too much of an issue considering we have already managed to get them good minutes despite having them on 3 different lines.
Yeah you can probably manage to give them decent minutes but you will still hand up paying one of them $5-6M as a #3C which is too much in a cap world. They could get more minutes and their money on the top two lines playing wings.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:02 PM
  #683
Bubba Thudd
Hubba Hubba
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,907
vCash: 6200
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Yeah you can probably manage to give them decent minutes but you will still hand up paying one of them $5-6M as a #3C which is too much in a cap world. They could get more minutes and their money on the top two lines playing wings.
Too much for a traditional 3rd line, but if our 3rd line is essentially a 2B line, it could work, money-wise.

__________________
"We're not cynics, we just don't believe a word you say
We're not critics, we just hate it all anyway"
Bubba Thudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:07 PM
  #684
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Too much for a traditional 3rd line, but if our 3rd line is essentially a 2B line, it could work, money-wise.
Yes you are right but then most likely, unless you draft very very well, you will end up with less quality wingers for all of your three Cs. If you have a more traditional #3C you can pay him less but have better quality winger and still have very good depth for your Cs, Ws and Ds

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:09 PM
  #685
Bubba Thudd
Hubba Hubba
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,907
vCash: 6200
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
Yes you are right but then most likely, unless you draft very very well, you will end up with less quality wingers for all of your three Cs. If you have a more traditional #3C you can pay him less but have better quality winger and still have very good depth for your Cs, Ws and Ds
I hear ya. Personally, I'm in favor of the traditional 3rd line format.

Bubba Thudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:10 PM
  #686
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
I hear ya. Personally, I'm in favor of the traditional 3rd line format.
Yeah that's the way I feel too. Load up the top two lines and have very good depth on the third line in case your top players get hurt.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:11 PM
  #687
Avs For Life
#92 #9 #29
 
Avs For Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 3,710
vCash: 500
I think the closest thing we have had to a 3rd line center recently was Jmac. We never should have let him go.

Avs For Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:13 PM
  #688
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs For Life View Post
I think the closest thing we have had to a 3rd line center recently was Jmac. We never should have let him go.
It was not our decision. It was his. We offered him more than the Leafs.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:13 PM
  #689
Bubba Thudd
Hubba Hubba
 
Bubba Thudd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 19,907
vCash: 6200
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs For Life View Post
I think the closest thing we have had to a 3rd line center recently was Jmac. We never should have let him go.
What could we do? Offer him more $$ than Toronto?


...oh, wait...

Bubba Thudd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:15 PM
  #690
Avs For Life
#92 #9 #29
 
Avs For Life's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Denver, CO
Country: United States
Posts: 3,710
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
It was not our decision. It was his. We offered him more than the Leafs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
What could we do? Offer him more $$ than Toronto?


...oh, wait...
I guess I didnt realize we offered him more and he still left. Perhaps that was a telling sign of what was to come

Avs For Life is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 12:34 PM
  #691
WornWithPride
Registered User
 
WornWithPride's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Town in Country
Country: Canada
Posts: 1,974
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Avs need D. So bad.


http://capgeek.com/ufa-finder/?position_id=D

This isn't great.

I'm very worried for next season.
I see ROB is a free agent, maybe we should give him a try

#Things no one says

WornWithPride is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 01:04 PM
  #692
SoundwaveIsCharisma
Moderator
 
SoundwaveIsCharisma's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Screw You Blaster
Country: Canada
Posts: 27,299
vCash: 500
Send a message via AIM to SoundwaveIsCharisma
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avs For Life View Post
I guess I didnt realize we offered him more and he still left. Perhaps that was a telling sign of what was to come
He wanted to be closer to home, and a bigger role on the team.

SoundwaveIsCharisma is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 01:38 PM
  #693
zxcvnm
Registered User
 
zxcvnm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Remember SammyJankis
Country: United States
Posts: 584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
There are two problems with Stastny and ROR going forward:
1. I'm sure both of them are not too interested in staying with the team and play on the 3rd line.

2. In a cap world you can't pay your #3C $5-6M long term. We can do it this year or maybe even next year until Mac proves he can handle #2C but then it is too much money for a #3C. Money is much better spent on higher end wingers for our top two Cs. So if we keep Stastny and play ROR on the wing eventually Stastny will have to be moved to #3C. Same thing if we trade Stastny and keep ROR. ROR could be our #2C for a while but then he will have to be moved to #3C.

With that being said these two guys are very very good top two lines players so if they want to remain with the team and they don't mind being move to the wings, they could be very good options for the team. At those positions the team could afford to retain one or both of them and it gives very good options as well when one of Duchene or Mac gets hurt.
You and I think alike. I could fathom O'Reilly accepting a role as a winger and #2C injury replacement, but I think it's unlikely. If he and Duchene really mesh well and he wants to stay in Denver, maybe O'Reilly will be retained for the long term.

But, it's a long shot for so many reasons. We still control him as a RFA even if he gets a lot of money in the process. We can afford him at inflated costs until MacKinnon is off his ELC. But, I'd be surprised if he remains with the Avs for the entirety of the next three seasons. I think he's traded at some point to strengthen the back end.

Likewise, Stastny has to see the writing on the wall. Maybe he'd accept a move to winger, but he's too good and too expensive as a #3C. He may be the #2C for another season or two, but he knows MacKinnon will supplant him in that role. So, why would he stay with the Avs when there are better options for him out there? I have a feeling that the Avs will try to reprove his value during the first couple months of the season and then trade him when his value is about as high as it will be for a pending FA.

My conclusion is that both O'Reilly and Stastny will eventually be gone, perhaps within the next year. For a team that needs help on defense, it's really not such a bad thing when you consider how much talent we will have in our #1 and #2Cs.

zxcvnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 02:04 PM
  #694
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvnm View Post
You and I think alike. I could fathom O'Reilly accepting a role as a winger and #2C injury replacement, but I think it's unlikely. If he and Duchene really mesh well and he wants to stay in Denver, maybe O'Reilly will be retained for the long term.

But, it's a long shot for so many reasons. We still control him as a RFA even if he gets a lot of money in the process. We can afford him at inflated costs until MacKinnon is off his ELC. But, I'd be surprised if he remains with the Avs for the entirety of the next three seasons. I think he's traded at some point to strengthen the back end.

Likewise, Stastny has to see the writing on the wall. Maybe he'd accept a move to winger, but he's too good and too expensive as a #3C. He may be the #2C for another season or two, but he knows MacKinnon will supplant him in that role. So, why would he stay with the Avs when there are better options for him out there? I have a feeling that the Avs will try to reprove his value during the first couple months of the season and then trade him when his value is about as high as it will be for a pending FA.

My conclusion is that both O'Reilly and Stastny will eventually be gone, perhaps within the next year. For a team that needs help on defense, it's really not such a bad thing when you consider how much talent we will have in our #1 and #2Cs.
I agree about Stastny. Unless he wants to move to wing, if they can't get something of value right now to improve our D, play him at #2C to improve his stock and then trade at the deadline.

ROR is another story. Because of the way he plays and his work ethics, I really hope he is happy to move to wing. He could be a very very good winger kind of like Forsberg did. This way he can have the minutes and money he wants.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 02:25 PM
  #695
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bubba Thudd View Post
Too much for a traditional 3rd line, but if our 3rd line is essentially a 2B line, it could work, money-wise.
This. So much this.

When will people realize we can run 3 centers at 18 a clip easily between PK, PP and ES?

I think we could afford to put Stastny on one of the top two LWs and use ROR as a Jordan Staal, #1 PKer, 3rd line defensive center with top six minutes and occasionally a shift on the wing of the top two lines.

It can work out mathematically, we just need Roy to realize this vision and let it have a fighting chance before we ship any of them out!

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 02:35 PM
  #696
AllAboutAvs
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: B.C. Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 2,749
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
This. So much this.

When will people realize we can run 3 centers at 18 a clip easily between PK, PP and ES?

I think we could afford to put Stastny on one of the top two LWs and use ROR as a Jordan Staal, #1 PKer, 3rd line defensive center with top six minutes and occasionally a shift on the wing of the top two lines.

It can work out mathematically, we just need Roy to realize this vision and let it have a fighting chance before we ship any of them out!
The math works but hockey-wise it only works if you have no injuries. As soon as you have injuries, your top 3 lines become too weak offensively unless you have been drafting really really well and your farm system is really strong.

AllAboutAvs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 02:40 PM
  #697
zxcvnm
Registered User
 
zxcvnm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Remember SammyJankis
Country: United States
Posts: 584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
This. So much this.

When will people realize we can run 3 centers at 18 a clip easily between PK, PP and ES?

I think we could afford to put Stastny on one of the top two LWs and use ROR as a Jordan Staal, #1 PKer, 3rd line defensive center with top six minutes and occasionally a shift on the wing of the top two lines.

It can work out mathematically, we just need Roy to realize this vision and let it have a fighting chance before we ship any of them out!
The way I see it, the issue isn't so much playing time. We could, in principle, play each center 20 minutes per game, giving each one rotational time with the 4th line wingers.

The issue is asset allocation, more specifically, where we are spending the money. If we're paying a 3rd line center $6M, for example, that's money not spent on potentially higher quality wingers or defenseman. It's why we could pay O'Reilly that money if he plays well on Duchene's wing and is willing to stay there, but should hesitate to spend that money if he insists on being the 3rd center. The question is if we're better off having three very good lines or two elite lines. Championships have been won with the latter. I cannot think of many examples of the former.

zxcvnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 02:40 PM
  #698
AMDZen
ME in the RED Circle
 
AMDZen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Denver
Country: Sweden
Posts: 3,263
vCash: 2000
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Mars Volchenkov View Post
And what happens if he had a great season? Do the Avs just lose him for nothing as he heads to UFA off a big year? I can't see the Avs wanted to pay him big money with three other young centers on the roster, and I can't see Stastny wanting to re-sign when it's clear those other guys are the future.
Depends entirely on what happens with RoR this year I guess

Quote:
Originally Posted by Granlund2Pulkkinen View Post
Avs need D. So bad.


http://capgeek.com/ufa-finder/?position_id=D

This isn't great.

I'm very worried for next season.
By "next season" do you mean this season? (13-14) or next season as in 14-15. If the latter, I'm not too worried. I think Bigras makes our roster next year and maybe Siemens too

AMDZen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 03:10 PM
  #699
Lonewolfe2015
Registered User
 
Lonewolfe2015's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Country: United States
Posts: 14,807
vCash: 413
Quote:
Originally Posted by cyberfan View Post
The math works but hockey-wise it only works if you have no injuries. As soon as you have injuries, your top 3 lines become too weak offensively unless you have been drafting really really well and your farm system is really strong.
Not if we have centers playing wing like Stastny. You get flexibility, centers with no linemates can move to wing and vice versa.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zxcvnm View Post
The way I see it, the issue isn't so much playing time. We could, in principle, play each center 20 minutes per game, giving each one rotational time with the 4th line wingers.

The issue is asset allocation, more specifically, where we are spending the money. If we're paying a 3rd line center $6M, for example, that's money not spent on potentially higher quality wingers or defenseman. It's why we could pay O'Reilly that money if he plays well on Duchene's wing and is willing to stay there, but should hesitate to spend that money if he insists on being the 3rd center. The question is if we're better off having three very good lines or two elite lines. Championships have been won with the latter. I cannot think of many examples of the former.
No need to rotate them with the 4th liners, the 4th line can get 6-8 minutes a game with 18 minute centers that get simultaneous PP/PK time together. Overlapping icetime for your most skilled players.

As far as allocation goes, I'd rather have a #1 center on my "third line" than have another 6mil winger that can't play center unless they are someone on Kovalchuk's level. So really your post isn't about resource allocation, it is about paying players what they deserve and only keeping players being paid appropriately. Stastny at 6mil and Hossa at 6mil doesn't make sense until you consider that Staz can play center and possibly wing, and PP, PK and is younger.

If both Staz and ROR can play C/W when needed, we've got a deep team. You don't need to move either or both of them simply because they prefer center, we need to see if they can adapt first and make our team better because of that. Heck, Mack might even play some wing as one point.

Lonewolfe2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
07-03-2013, 03:44 PM
  #700
zxcvnm
Registered User
 
zxcvnm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Remember SammyJankis
Country: United States
Posts: 584
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonewolfe2015 View Post
As far as allocation goes, I'd rather have a #1 center on my "third line" than have another 6mil winger that can't play center unless they are someone on Kovalchuk's level. So really your post isn't about resource allocation, it is about paying players what they deserve and only keeping players being paid appropriately. Stastny at 6mil and Hossa at 6mil doesn't make sense until you consider that Staz can play center and possibly wing, and PP, PK and is younger.

If both Staz and ROR can play C/W when needed, we've got a deep team. You don't need to move either or both of them simply because they prefer center, we need to see if they can adapt first and make our team better because of that. Heck, Mack might even play some wing as one point.
I'm not advocating overpaying for talent and my post really had very little to do about what O'Reilly or Stastny is actually "worth." Obviously, we shouldn't overpay.

But, let me describe an extreme example that might highlight what I mean about resource allocation. We could find 12 really good forwards and pay them a combined $54M (and, in principle, pay each player exactly what they're worth) and leave $10M (assuming $64M cap) for our six defenseman and goalie. Clearly that will not work because the quality of talent we'll have on our backend will be extraordinarily weak. The same argument works when you consider centers and wingers. If we pay O'Reilly, say, $6M to be a center, it might leave us only $2M to sign a left winger for Duchene (these numbers are somewhat arbitrary, but used to illustrate a point). On the other hand, we could find a 3rd line center that is worth $3M and find a winger worth $5M. Yes, that means our 3rd line is weaker, but a stronger first line will not be overwhelmed by top notch competition in the playoffs.

If O'Reilly is willing to play winger while being an injury depth option at center, it increases his value to the Avs. If he will only play 3rd line center, we might be better off finding someone of lower quality to play 3rd line and use the savings to get a better defenseman.

EDIT: I'll expand on the winger vs center argument a bit further. On the 3rd line, the quality of talent that will surround O'Reilly limits the potential benefit he would have to that line. The difference between a $6M and a $3M center on the 3rd line might be 20 goals in a season. But, the difference between a $2M and a $5M winger on the 1st line might be 50 goals in a season. Point being, O'Reilly might have a greater impact on the Avs as a winger and depth center than as a pure 3rd line center. Plus, I'd rather move him for a quality defenseman, but that's a different discussion.


Last edited by zxcvnm: 07-03-2013 at 03:56 PM.
zxcvnm is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:06 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2017 All Rights Reserved.