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Vanek's Success: How Much Credit Does CoHo Deserve?

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Old
02-09-2013, 01:43 AM
  #126
Myllz
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
To an extent, we've never seen vanek and ennis play together though and ennis actually has pretty good playmaking abililty, ennis could carry the puck through the neutral zone but would be pretty good at finding vanek in the offensive zone, I do think cohos a better fit but it's not like the puck stays on one players stick the whole shift, I think that whole argument of eliminating linemates possesion has been blown up.
Sounds like Roy. How'd that work out?

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02-09-2013, 01:59 AM
  #127
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Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
In your last post you were talking about how his line mates would be required to win puck battles along the board so he can accept the outlet pass through the middle for an easy breakout. Now you suggest he is capable of playing efficiently along the half board even though he is "nearly completely incapable of winning a board battle." There WILL be board battles along the half board in his own zone. Im not saying he can't play wing because he's shown he can, but you contradicted yourself.

By the bolded you are suggesting he must play with inferior players in order to not waste shifts of our better players. The way you are describing him sounds like you think he is a complete liability out there. Im lost on how you suggest a player who is once again "nearly completely incapable of winning a board battle" is suited for a 3rd line role?
I guess I'm just explaining this poorly, because I'm not contradicting myself. Lets try again.

Ennis can't win a contested puck and is prone to puck hogging and turnovers. This means that an incredible number of his line's possessions are going to die directly because of him. Envision this team 2-3 years from now. Every time Ennis ****s up, we don't want Vanek & Pominville, or Grigorenko & Armia, etc to have to waste the rest of that shift floating around their defensive zone. Those players need a linemate that can preserve the possession and maximize the number of chances that they get to handle the puck.

If you're still following me, this means that even though Ennis is offensively skilled, he is an offensive liability in that despite being skilled, he is less skilled than several other players, and his game directly and negatively impacts the opportunities that those more skilled players will see. We just traded a guy just like that to Dallas.

Anyways, by necessity this means that if Ennis is going to be on this team 2-3 years from now, he's going to have to play on the so-called "3rd" line, with players like Girgensons & Foligno. It won't be a symmetric line, but with the right linemates it should still be above average defensively, and with Ennis it will have more scoring potential than usual. Most importantly, its no big deal when Ennis ****s up in the offensive zone, since the line probably didn't have any better options to try anyways. THIS is the key distinction I'm trying to focus on.

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02-09-2013, 02:18 AM
  #128
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I'd argue that Ennis is just as likely to win a puck battle as Cody is. The thing about Cody is his game is more cerebral at the moment. Instead of trying to dangle, he tries to make a pass. I think if Ennis plays his game in a smart way, instead of trying to dangle through everyone at the blue line he's slightly better. He's faster and creative, although not as creative as Hodgson.

As for defense, well they both suck. Who woulda guessed?

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02-09-2013, 11:08 AM
  #129
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I guess I'm just explaining this poorly, because I'm not contradicting myself. Lets try again.

Ennis can't win a contested puck and is prone to puck hogging and turnovers. This means that an incredible number of his line's possessions are going to die directly because of him. Envision this team 2-3 years from now. Every time Ennis ****s up, we don't want Vanek & Pominville, or Grigorenko & Armia, etc to have to waste the rest of that shift floating around their defensive zone. Those players need a linemate that can preserve the possession and maximize the number of chances that they get to handle the puck.

If you're still following me, this means that even though Ennis is offensively skilled, he is an offensive liability in that despite being skilled, he is less skilled than several other players, and his game directly and negatively impacts the opportunities that those more skilled players will see. We just traded a guy just like that to Dallas.

Anyways, by necessity this means that if Ennis is going to be on this team 2-3 years from now, he's going to have to play on the so-called "3rd" line, with players like Girgensons & Foligno. It won't be a symmetric line, but with the right linemates it should still be above average defensively, and with Ennis it will have more scoring potential than usual. Most importantly, its no big deal when Ennis ****s up in the offensive zone, since the line probably didn't have any better options to try anyways. THIS is the key distinction I'm trying to focus on.
Wouldn't Ennis have less turnovers with another 2-3 years experience?

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02-09-2013, 11:13 AM
  #130
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We need both to perform at a top level for this team to make the playoffs. I don't care who gets how much credit for helping another player, I want the team to be good, the rest I don't give a **** about. That's **** fans of great teams can argue about, but not fans of a team that sucks if just one piece isn't working.

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02-09-2013, 04:01 PM
  #131
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Originally Posted by Myllz View Post
Sounds like Roy. How'd that work out?
Couple 40 goal seasons for vanek. not saying ennis is a better fit because I don't think he is but we've never seen him with vanek and using Roy and saying he's the same as ennis doesn't really cut it

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02-09-2013, 04:18 PM
  #132
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I wouldn't want to trade Ennis unless we get a bigger better winger for him. I think when he simplifies his game he will compliment any line very well, he's trying to do too much right now and when he learns that less is more he will succeed even more. I mean the guy has 9 points in 11 games right now playing hard minutes. He's been inconsistent but hopefully he learns to turn it on every game.

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02-09-2013, 06:21 PM
  #133
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I find it odd Cody Hodgson in 31 career games as a Sabre is a -10... Including a -3 this year even though Vanek and Poms are +5 and even. He also has 18 career points as a Sabre in 31 games which is a 48 point/season pace.

Ennis on the other hand is a career +13 with 101 points in 151 games... Which is a 55 point pace.Ennis has a much better +/- and scores more yet is thought of as inferior/trade bait while Hodgson is untouchable... Must be Codys defensive play (joking because they both suck at their own end )

Hodgson is one of my favorites so there is no bias from me. I actually think by 2014 that both of them will be perennial 70 point players ( Ennis moved to #2 LW by then to make room for Grigs on the 2nd line) Cody has potential but he still hasn't reached it, neither has Ennis.


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02-09-2013, 08:39 PM
  #134
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He has a pretty wicked saucer pass...

He is actually a PPG player 12 games into the season...

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02-09-2013, 11:05 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I guess I'm just explaining this poorly, because I'm not contradicting myself. Lets try again.

Ennis can't win a contested puck and is prone to puck hogging and turnovers. This means that an incredible number of his line's possessions are going to die directly because of him. Envision this team 2-3 years from now. Every time Ennis ****s up, we don't want Vanek & Pominville, or Grigorenko & Armia, etc to have to waste the rest of that shift floating around their defensive zone. Those players need a linemate that can preserve the possession and maximize the number of chances that they get to handle the puck.

If you're still following me, this means that even though Ennis is offensively skilled, he is an offensive liability in that despite being skilled, he is less skilled than several other players, and his game directly and negatively impacts the opportunities that those more skilled players will see. We just traded a guy just like that to Dallas.

Anyways, by necessity this means that if Ennis is going to be on this team 2-3 years from now, he's going to have to play on the so-called "3rd" line, with players like Girgensons & Foligno. It won't be a symmetric line, but with the right linemates it should still be above average defensively, and with Ennis it will have more scoring potential than usual. Most importantly, its no big deal when Ennis ****s up in the offensive zone, since the line probably didn't have any better options to try anyways. THIS is the key distinction I'm trying to focus on.

This post fully encapsulates the developing Hodgson and Ennis myths in terms of what they are as players.


Their stat lines

Hodgson

12gms 5g 7a 12pts -2
Giveaways -> 8 (2nd on team)
Takeaways -> 3 (tied for 9th)
% of off zone starts -> 52.3%
% of off zone finishes -> 50.3%

Ennis

12gms 4g 5a 9pts +/-0
Giveaways -> 3 (tied for 11th)
Takeaways -> 6 (6th)
% of off zone starts -> 47.5%
% of off zone finishes -> 51.8%


Ennis gets more defensive zone starts and still manages to finish more shifts in the offensive zone than Hodgson. He also doesn't turn the puck over very often either. This year 3 giveaways in 12gms, last season 22 in 48gms and only 25 in 82gms the season before that. Ennis does not turn over the puck any where near the amount the mythical Ennis in this thread turns the puck over. Hodgson's turnover stats are more in line with Roy's not Ennis'. Roy was always near the top for the Sabres in giveaways.


Hodgson, like Ennis, has struggled with their defensive positioning as centers. Considering Hodgson has been a center at every stage of development and nothing else, unlike Ennis. You would think Hodgson would have an advantage here but he doesn't. Hodgson has also made some incredible bad decisions with the puck in our zone leading directly to goals. I have no idea why anyone would assert he is a two way center in any way shape or form. He may become one down the road but he certainly isn't one right now. Or assert that Ennis is a defensive liability while Hodgson is doing ok in that department.


Offensively there isn't much difference to their production. Considering who Hodgson plays with, thats pretty impressive for Ennis to be as close as he is.


Btw the guy killing the Foligno/Ennis/Stafford line with turnovers is Drew Stafford who leads the team in that department with 12. Its not Ennis with his 3 or Foligno with his 3.

I'm not dumping on Hodsgon but its incredible the free pass the kid gets on the flaws in his game that need work. Things that Ennis is absolutely hammered for even if they're not true in some cases.


------------

To answer the thread question, Coho deserves some but not much credit for what Vanek is doing.

In order

Vanek
Vanek being healthy
Pommer
Coho.

The only thing that has slowed Vanek down since he started playing with Pommer has been injuries.


Last edited by joshjull: 02-09-2013 at 11:16 PM.
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Old
02-09-2013, 11:16 PM
  #136
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From watching every game this season, Coho deserves a ton of credit for how well Vanek is doing. Coho is is a very good play maker and can pass the puck better than anyone on the team. He has great vision and sets up Vanek nearly every game.

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02-09-2013, 11:27 PM
  #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoFFacet View Post
I guess I'm just explaining this poorly, because I'm not contradicting myself. Lets try again.

Ennis can't win a contested puck and is prone to puck hogging and turnovers. This means that an incredible number of his line's possessions are going to die directly because of him. Envision this team 2-3 years from now. Every time Ennis ****s up, we don't want Vanek & Pominville, or Grigorenko & Armia, etc to have to waste the rest of that shift floating around their defensive zone. Those players need a linemate that can preserve the possession and maximize the number of chances that they get to handle the puck.

If you're still following me, this means that even though Ennis is offensively skilled, he is an offensive liability in that despite being skilled, he is less skilled than several other players, and his game directly and negatively impacts the opportunities that those more skilled players will see. We just traded a guy just like that to Dallas.

Anyways, by necessity this means that if Ennis is going to be on this team 2-3 years from now, he's going to have to play on the so-called "3rd" line, with players like Girgensons & Foligno. It won't be a symmetric line, but with the right linemates it should still be above average defensively, and with Ennis it will have more scoring potential than usual. Most importantly, its no big deal when Ennis ****s up in the offensive zone, since the line probably didn't have any better options to try anyways. THIS is the key distinction I'm trying to focus on.
First of all, stop trying to lay it out with phrases such as "if you're still following me" to insinuate I'm some sort of retard for replying the way I did, I knew exactly the point you were trying to make, and like I said I disagreed with it. I would pick apart your post in detail but it seems as though joshjull has already done that for me. Calling Ennis an offensive liability makes me really question what games you've been watching :shake head

Edit: typo

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02-10-2013, 05:53 PM
  #138
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Originally Posted by joshjull View Post
...
This post is a perfect example of useless stats. Apparently, the NHL does not count receiving a pass poorly and losing the ensuing puck battle as a turnover? Please, watch the games. I can't remember a single instance yet this season where we have gained or regained possession when Ennis was involved in the puck battle.

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Originally Posted by LGB24 View Post
First of all, stop trying to lay it out with phrases such as "if you're still following me" to insinuate I'm some sort of retard for replying the way I did, I knew exactly the point you were trying to make, and like I said I disagreed with it. I would pick apart your post in detail but it seems as though joshjull has already done that for me. Calling Ennis an offensive liability makes me really question what games you've been watching :shake head
I don't see how the phrase "if you're still following me" could be taken offensively. As a matter of fact I recall putting it in there to make the post less abrasive because we're both frustrated by seemingly talking past one another. Per bolded, you apparently aren't above a few condescending barbs, yourself.

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02-10-2013, 06:19 PM
  #139
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Looking at the offensive zone starts and finishes for both is very important, but from that perspective you have to cite their even strength points, not their overall points. All of Hodgson's 12 points are at even strength, while Ennis has 6 of 9 at even strength. There you see a far bigger discrepancy in their offense. Defensively, Ennis has been better than expected in that role but the defensive zone starts are having a big effect on the line, namely on Stafford's offensive production and the fact that they're going against harder competition. I find it hard to believe that the team wouldn't be better served playing F-E-S like they did at the end of last season.

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03-02-2013, 06:32 PM
  #140
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The answer is, a lot. I still can't believe Vancouver gave up a player like this for a banger that scores every now and again. Guys like CoHo are hard to find.

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03-02-2013, 06:40 PM
  #141
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The answer is, a lot. I still can't believe Vancouver gave up a player like this for a banger that scores every now and again. Guys like CoHo are hard to find.
So are guys that Kassian has the potential to be.

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03-02-2013, 06:46 PM
  #142
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They have been a product of each other, so I hope they stay together.

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03-02-2013, 06:46 PM
  #143
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CoHo's success is also his own. He played well tonight and if we can get him to be more sound defensively, we struck some gold.

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03-02-2013, 06:55 PM
  #144
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So are guys that Kassian has the potential to be.
Hmm, 60 point wingers are hard to find?

Sorry, I just fundamentally disagree. Top 6 forwards don't need to be bangers. Is it nice to have a guy like Lucic? Sure, but they aren't a necessity to build a winning team.

Name a cup champion that didn't have a legit #1 center? I doubt you can. But name a cup winning team that didn't have a power forward and I'm sure you can come up with many....

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03-02-2013, 06:55 PM
  #145
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So are guys that Kassian has the potential to be.
Big emphasis on potential.

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03-02-2013, 07:02 PM
  #146
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Originally Posted by Guess What View Post
CoHo's success is also his own. He played well tonight and if we can get him to be more sound defensively, we struck some gold.
For sure. The kid's got vision. Once he gets that man stregth, he's going to be really, really good.

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03-02-2013, 07:08 PM
  #147
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Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
Hmm, 60 point wingers are hard to find?

Sorry, I just fundamentally disagree. Top 6 forwards don't need to be bangers. Is it nice to have a guy like Lucic? Sure, but they aren't a necessity to build a winning team.

Name a cup champion that didn't have a legit #1 center? I doubt you can. But name a cup winning team that didn't have a power forward and I'm sure you can come up with many....
I like coho over kass but bad argument.
Kings: dustin brown
Bruins: lucic
Hawks: ladd/byfuglien

I'm sure the list goes on and on

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03-02-2013, 07:23 PM
  #148
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Originally Posted by TheyAreGoodScaryGood View Post
I like coho over kass but bad argument.
Kings: dustin brown
Bruins: lucic
Hawks: ladd/byfuglien

I'm sure the list goes on and on
Didn't say that there weren't any PF's on cup winning teams, I said you can find a lot more winners that didn't have a PF than you can teams that didn't have a #1 center. E.g. Pittsburgh, Carolina, TB.

While they may have had a loose "power forward", none of them had a PF that I would label "hard to find".

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03-02-2013, 07:32 PM
  #149
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So are guys that Kassian has the potential to be.
All that potential sure looks good on the 4th line.

He was actually a parasite on the top line with the Sedins. He led the team in goals because they were setting him up but in doing so he completely killed their offense. Since Kassian left he's stopped scoring and the Sedins have been ripping it up again.

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03-02-2013, 09:02 PM
  #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mergus merganser View Post
Hmm, 60 point wingers are hard to find?

Sorry, I just fundamentally disagree. Top 6 forwards don't need to be bangers. Is it nice to have a guy like Lucic? Sure, but they aren't a necessity to build a winning team.

Name a cup champion that didn't have a legit #1 center? I doubt you can. But name a cup winning team that didn't have a power forward and I'm sure you can come up with many....
Vancouver has 2 legit #1 centers, so what's your point?

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Originally Posted by HockeyH3aven View Post
All that potential sure looks good on the 4th line.

He was actually a parasite on the top line with the Sedins. He led the team in goals because they were setting him up but in doing so he completely killed their offense. Since Kassian left he's stopped scoring and the Sedins have been ripping it up again.
Come back in 3 years and we'll see how he's doing.

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