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Rangers/Avalanche (Ryan O'Reilly)

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Old
02-09-2013, 11:04 PM
  #151
JoemAvs
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Can you please keep Stepan?
I want no part of him. Not a fan.

And the guy who said we have to add to O'Reilly for him?
Seriously? You talk about homer goggles ??
Now I have seen it all.

I would want McDonagh and that is not happening. Girardi is right-handed and will not be traded.
Staal is too much of a risk with his concussion (I seriously believe we are cursed) and I believe he will go to Carolina the first chance he gets and DelZotto is good but I am not sold on him defensively. He looks good yeah but that is on the best defensive core in Torts system with Lundqvist behind him. Under Sacco and with our defensive system I am not so sure about him.

He would look solid with EJ but I am not sure that is a move the Avs should make. I mean Sherman should just hang up on Sather. Nothing good will come out of it otherwise...


Last edited by JoemAvs: 02-09-2013 at 11:10 PM.
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Old
02-10-2013, 12:07 AM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Drij View Post
OR Maybe Landeskog carried O'Reilly...
Or maybe they...helped each other? *dun dun dun!*

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02-10-2013, 12:48 AM
  #153
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Rangers need another d man with addition of powe and miller and kreider getting his **** together we have enough depth. I would like another dman though

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02-10-2013, 03:39 AM
  #154
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by PAZ View Post
Not getting into this argument, just saying that what you posted completely ignores the fact that McDonagh is 2 years older than O'Reilly when using the 'three vs two season argument' which is completely pointless argument anyways.
Wait, so because McDonagh is 2 years older than O'Reilly means that O'Reilly should get a pass here for playing at a lower level, even though he was in the league for a season and a half before McDonagh came up???

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Originally Posted by NHL33 View Post
No real argument? Grasping at straws? I only entered in the conversation to note how critically flawed the Rangers fans' argument was.
You just answered your own question, so no need for a response there.

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What would I be arguing for or against otherwise? I don't care about defending O'Reilly, so your post in general is a head scratcher; maybe you should stop projecting other posters on me just because your sample size verdict doesn't hold up.
You don't care about "defending" O'Reilly, but you've gone on for this long, continue to go on and are now saying that I'm making some argument about sample size when you're the one that brought that up originally.

Dude, pick a story and stick to it, because now you're just contradicting yourself left and right.

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02-10-2013, 03:43 AM
  #155
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wow this thread is still going...

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02-10-2013, 04:46 AM
  #156
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Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Dude, pick a story and stick to it, because now you're just contradicting yourself left and right.
There is no contradiction, your player is no more proven simply because he is your player when you're basing it on sample size. By your argument O'Reilly is equally as proven as McDonagh. I am not defending O'Reilly because he doesn't deserve the money he is asking for, which means he has nowhere near the leverage he wants to have and would result in a poorer than desired return should the Avs trade him.

Just because you are completely out to lunch and continue proving it with every post doesn't really deny anything on my part. There is no contradiction, that's just you trying to justify sloppy logic on your part.

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02-10-2013, 07:46 AM
  #157
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I do not buy the argument why Stepan is a better player because his offense was better two years ago. It seems like people are searching for something to discredit O'Reilly's offense because honestly, very few young players top out their offense at 19-21 and the most important thing is to show progression, which O'Reilly is showing. So many young players struggle their first years in the league, but when their offfense clicka rarely does it regress. Heck, even Seguin and Stamkos had problems but after their breakout years you'd have looked silly if you pulled out the two years back argument that some of you think holds some weight. I mean, I can think of a few examples of young players regressing after one breakout year, but the examples are so rare that I don't tink it stands up to much scrutiny.

And yes, I'm a Rangers fan.

That being said, I feel without a doubt both Del Zotto and Mcdonaugh have more value than O'Reilly. Their improvement over the last year has been pretty remarkable and they are both already key figures on what is possibly the strongest back four in the NHL.


Last edited by The Sweetness: 02-10-2013 at 03:26 PM.
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Old
02-10-2013, 10:01 AM
  #158
CM Lundqvist
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NHL33 View Post
There is no contradiction, your player is no more proven simply because he is your player when you're basing it on sample size. By your argument O'Reilly is equally as proven as McDonagh. I am not defending O'Reilly because he doesn't deserve the money he is asking for, which means he has nowhere near the leverage he wants to have and would result in a poorer than desired return should the Avs trade him.

Just because you are completely out to lunch and continue proving it with every post doesn't really deny anything on my part. There is no contradiction, that's just you trying to justify sloppy logic on your part.
Again, you keep talking about "sample size" yet I'm not the one who brought this up or is basing an argument on anything. You keep claiming this and I'm simply not. What I'm saying is that McDonagh has played at a higher level longer than O'Reilly has, what you're saying is that O'Reilly is more "proven" than McDonagh because he's been in this league for a season and a half longer. I honestly don't care about how "proven he is". You apparently don't know how to read and you keep going on about how "proven he is" because there is no argument to the fact that McDonagh has played at a higher level.

Keep saying that there's no contradiction, sloppy logic, I'm out to lunch, etc. But the real fool here is you, because you keep arguing something with me that I'm not even caring to argue. O'Reilly's first 2 seasons are your average run of the mill bottom-6'er 19-21 year old kind of years. Ryan McDonagh's time in the NHL has seen him quickly become a Norris Caliber defender, as evidence at his placing in the voting last season.

So even if I was arguing about "being more proven" the only thing that my argument proves is that O'Reilly has been a "proven NHL'er" (if you will) for a longer period of time as he's PLAYED at the NHL level for a season and a half longer. Great, you won that argument. Proud day for you and your family. You've established that O'Reilly was playing at the NHL level while McDonagh was developing at Wisconsin. Rocket Science at it's finest.

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02-10-2013, 10:14 AM
  #159
Ivan13
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Radar proved he's a great player the exact moment he played hsi first game in an Avs jersey. His defensive game has been flat out brilliant from day one. As for his point totals from the seasons before this past one, you go and try put up points playing in an defensive role with virtually no offensive chances and all that while playing with all star scoring talent like McLeod, Tucker, Winnik and the rest of wingers who got lucky enough to play with him.

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02-10-2013, 10:20 AM
  #160
CM Lundqvist
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Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Radar proved he's a great player the exact moment he played hsi first game in an Avs jersey. His defensive game has been flat out brilliant from day one. As for his point totals from the seasons before this past one, you go and try put up points playing in an defensive role with virtually no offensive chances and all that while playing with all star scoring talent like McLeod, Tucker, Winnik and the rest of wingers who got lucky enough to play with him.
Since this post is most definitely directed at me, let me say that I'm not blaming him for his offensive numbers suffering for those first two years. With that, it doesn't change the fact that McDonagh since the moment he stepped on the ice has been one of the Rangers best defenders. That didn't happen for O'Reilly, regardless of circumstance. That's all I'm saying.

Both had major injuries on teams thrust them into bigger roles, but there's a good feeling amongst most Ranger fans that even if Staal didn't have the concussion, McDonagh would have ended up making the jump to the top pairing sooner rather than later and that's only been re-affirmed by his play.

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02-10-2013, 10:26 AM
  #161
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Lundqvist View Post
Since this post is most definitely directed at me, let me say that I'm not blaming him for his offensive numbers suffering for those first two years. With that, it doesn't change the fact that McDonagh since the moment he stepped on the ice has been one of the Rangers best defenders. That didn't happen for O'Reilly, regardless of circumstance. That's all I'm saying.

Both had major injuries on teams thrust them into bigger roles, but there's a good feeling amongst most Ranger fans that even if Staal didn't have the concussion, McDonagh would have ended up making the jump to the top pairing sooner rather than later and that's only been re-affirmed by his play.
The same thing you've said about McD can be said about Radar.

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02-10-2013, 11:10 AM
  #162
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Neither O'Reilly or Del Zotto are proven players yet.

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02-10-2013, 11:59 AM
  #163
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Originally Posted by smoneil View Post
Landeskog was a factor in just under half of O'Reilly's points last season. That's a fairly large percentage. Frankly, I'm not even arguing that "Landeskog was the only reason" or anything else along those lines. My point, as it's been form the very beginning, is that O'Reilly doesn't have the track record to bring back any of what you guys expect. He's got a pair of 3rd line production seasons and one above average season that may or may not have had more to do with his line-mate than anything else. He's a question mark, even without the contract debacle. One does not trade players with 2+ seasons of consistency (Stepan, MDZ or Staal) for a gamble. From a management standpoint, it's just stupid.

That said, there are stupid GMs out there. If you DO end up trading O'Reilly, I wish you the best in fleecing one of them.
And yet Stepan's most frequent linemates last year were: Gaborik and & Anisimov.

Both skilled players, and one star goal scorer.

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02-10-2013, 12:58 PM
  #164
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I think RoR for MDZ is a pretty fair deal for both teams. Maybe NYR throw in Boyle and it gets done.

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02-10-2013, 01:37 PM
  #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivan13 View Post
Radar proved he's a great player the exact moment he played hsi first game in an Avs jersey. His defensive game has been flat out brilliant from day one. As for his point totals from the seasons before this past one, you go and try put up points playing in an defensive role with virtually no offensive chances and all that while playing with all star scoring talent like McLeod, Tucker, Winnik and the rest of wingers who got lucky enough to play with him.
Just go to NHL.com and see exactly HOW MUCH Power Play time O'Reilly averaged his first 2 seasons in the league.

I believe it rounds out to 5secs and 7secs per game for the year.

He managed to put up TWO 26 point seasons with '10 seconds left to go on the PP, time to change lines on the fly' time.

When you look at the number of points he put up last year, I believe he put up 26 points on the PP. So you COULD say that all he needed was an opportunity. Having just turned 22, clearly he's reached his maximum.

Don't forget the Avalanche have without a doubt, the WORST coach in the league. He's barely adequate for the AHL.

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02-10-2013, 01:41 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Roo Mad Bro View Post
And yet Stepan's most frequent linemates last year were: Gaborik and & Anisimov.

Both skilled players, and one star goal scorer.
Landeskog's better than them both.

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02-10-2013, 01:44 PM
  #167
Mats Zuccarelli
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Can you please keep Stepan?
NO! Please don't make us keep Stepan! Anything but that!

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02-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #168
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Lets settle this in the offseason a one year trade of Gaborik for Landeskog. So the lines can be made up of Landeskog Stepan ? and ? ROR Gaborik. Than the following season the same players are traded back and we can fully evaluate who is the better offensive player. Will this settle this thread?

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02-10-2013, 01:47 PM
  #169
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As an Av's fan the only thing on the Rangers(within reason) that I would trade ROR for would be Staal or Girardi.

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02-10-2013, 01:52 PM
  #170
Mats Zuccarelli
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C'mon Avs, give us one of your goalie prospects. According to Hockey's Future, you have 4 top guys. We have none. We could use one as a potential backup since Biron is getting up there in age and if Lundqvist ever went down, we'd be screwed.

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02-10-2013, 02:10 PM
  #171
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As an Av's fan the only thing on the Rangers(within reason) that I would trade ROR for would be Staal or Girardi.
That's not within reason.

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02-10-2013, 02:20 PM
  #172
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C'mon Avs, give us one of your goalie prospects. According to Hockey's Future, you have 4 top guys. We have none. We could use one as a potential backup since Biron is getting up there in age and if Lundqvist ever went down, we'd be screwed.
RoR (signed)+ Aittokallio or Pickard (+) O'Brien or Hunwick
for
Staal

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02-10-2013, 02:43 PM
  #173
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I do not burn the argument why Stepan is a better player because his offense was better two years ago. It seems like people are searching for something to discredit O'Reilly's offense because honestly, very few young players top out their offense at 19-21 and the most important thing is to show progression, which O'Reilly is showing. So many young players struggle their first years in the league, but when their offfense clicka rarely does it regress. Heck, even Seguin and Stamkos had problems but after their breakout years you'd have looked silly if you pulled out the two years back argument that some of you think holds some weight. I mean, I can think of a few examples of young players regressing after one breakout year, but the examples are so rare that I don't tink it stands up to much scrutiny.

And yes, I'm a Rangers fan.

That being said, I feel without a doubt both Del Zotto and Mcdonaugh have more value than O'Reilly. Their improvement over the last year has been pretty remarkable and they are both already key figures on what is possibly the strongest back four in the NHL.
Re: the bolded--seriously? You aren't looking hard enough. There are plenty of examples of players having one great year where it seems as if they've put it all together, only for that one year to look like a fluke.

It's not an attempt to knock O'Reilly. I like him as a player. I hope that last year's version IS what he will be. My point is that, from a management point of view, the guy who has shown he can do it more than once has more value than the guy who MIGHT be a one-season wonder.

And on top of that, NONE of this matters, as Sather won't touch an RFA hold-out.

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02-10-2013, 02:49 PM
  #174
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I think RoR for MDZ is a pretty fair deal for both teams. Maybe NYR throw in Boyle and it gets done.
There is no world in which the Rangers give up the better player at a more valuable position on an appropriate contract (who has been one of our best defensemen over the last season plus) for even a SIGNED O'Reilly. The fact that you think the Rangers would be getting a "fair deal" by trading Del Zotto AND a plus for an unsigned O'Reilly is nothing short of hilarious.

The Rangers aren't trading for an RFA hold-out. Keep O'Reilly or peddle your legend in the making to another team.

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02-10-2013, 03:46 PM
  #175
The Sweetness
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Re: the bolded--seriously? You aren't looking hard enough. There are plenty of examples of players having one great year where it seems as if they've put it all together, only for that one year to look like a fluke.

It's not an attempt to knock O'Reilly. I like him as a player. I hope that last year's version IS what he will be. My point is that, from a management point of view, the guy who has shown he can do it more than once has more value than the guy who MIGHT be a one-season wonder.

And on top of that, NONE of this matters, as Sather won't touch an RFA hold-out.
It's a rare occurence for a player to have a career year as a 20-21 year-old or regress.

It happens (Wolski) but it is rare enough that I don't think it is really a valid argument when considering O'Reilly's valid in regards to Stepan. At least not enough to make me think Stepan has more value.

If you say I'm not looking hard enough then let's see all these examples of players that peaked or regressed after the age of 20-21. I'm sure it is fairly small despite there being something like 360 forwards in the NHL. This thread from hockeys future searching for the same thing didn't find many guys who peaked/regressed after 21 years old despite even considering retired players.

You may like O'Reilly as a player but you've also tried to unfairly compare his defensive play to Stepan, despite plenty of evidence showing that they are not in the same class, and I don't feel the one argument you fall back on (that Stepan has more value because he produced more two years ago) stands up to much scrutiny, especially when taken into context (playing on a poor team, in a shutdown role, with no PP time, and with rather poor line mates).

Edit: Another thing to consider, if you consider production from two years back to be all-important then you might want to be careful about praising Del Zotto considering the season he had two years ago (11 points). I consider it a natural growing process from a young player, but you may want to be careful giving him such value if you buy your own argument.


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