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The problem starts with.....goaltending

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Old
02-10-2013, 02:22 PM
  #76
saywut
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
It's this really sweet thing called rebound control.

When Backstrom is on his game, it's fine. When he's not, it isn't just costing a goal, it's costing games.

This last game was the first time all season that I wasn't cringing every time there was ANY sort of offensive pressure. Backstrom just isn't as good as the team made him in the past, we aren't clearing those terrible rebounds like we used to, and Backstrom can't control them as well as he used to.

Deflection? Likely goal against. Any shot to the blocker side? GOLDEN scoring chance on a bad rebound. Glove high? He loses his mind, and ends up on his ass and out of position. Shot from the point? Juicy rebound that the team isn't making up for anymore. Any sort of cross-ice passing? He always over commits on the first shot, so is NEVER in position for a pass vs. a shot.


These issues just don't occur with Harding, because his athleticism usually gets him out of trouble with whatever positioning deficiencies he has.

We don't have the team defense that we did in years past. Which means we need a goalie who doesn't require full team defense like we had in years past. Backstrom requires that, more than almost any other starter in the NHL that I've seen recently.
If Harding's so much better than Backstrom, how come his record is so much worse over the same period on the same team? Backstrom's 164-113-43, Harding's 42-52-8. Average those records over 82 games and the difference is 21 points, or the difference between 8th and 14th in the west last season(95/74). Harding's been a below 50% goalie in 3 of the 4 seasons he's played 10 games, Backstrom's been below 50% just once(the season Harding didn't play, so its safe to assume Harding would be 4/5 seasons below 50% as a back-up had he played).

But I'm sure everyone will jump to the Detroit law and whatnot to say Harding's had to play the 2nd of back to backs against all the good teams and that's why his numbers aren't as good. If Backstrom's playing 50+ a year he's facing tough opponents too. If the team's playing better in front of him, there's a reason for that too.

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02-10-2013, 02:31 PM
  #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
It's this really sweet thing called rebound control.

When Backstrom is on his game, it's fine. When he's not, it isn't just costing a goal, it's costing games.

This last game was the first time all season that I wasn't cringing every time there was ANY sort of offensive pressure. Backstrom just isn't as good as the team made him in the past, we aren't clearing those terrible rebounds like we used to, and Backstrom can't control them as well as he used to.

Deflection? Likely goal against. Any shot to the blocker side? GOLDEN scoring chance on a bad rebound. Glove high? He loses his mind, and ends up on his ass and out of position. Shot from the point? Juicy rebound that the team isn't making up for anymore. Any sort of cross-ice passing? He always over commits on the first shot, so is NEVER in position for a pass vs. a shot.


These issues just don't occur with Harding, because his athleticism usually gets him out of trouble with whatever positioning deficiencies he has.

We don't have the team defense that we did in years past. Which means we need a goalie who doesn't require full team defense like we had in years past. Backstrom requires that, more than almost any other starter in the NHL that I've seen recently.
The thing is, Backstrom has all of those flaws, and is still far better than Harding.

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02-10-2013, 03:28 PM
  #78
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Welp, there's some fundamental disagreement going on here.

I just plain can't wait until Backstrom is not a part of this team. If we're worse off, I'll eat crow. But, at a base level, I don't think that's going to happen.

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02-10-2013, 03:50 PM
  #79
Billy Mays Here
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Hackett hasn't exactly looked that great so far this year so I don't know how much we can really expect from him assuming Backstrom is let go of after this season. If anything Kuemper will be the one making the leap rather than Hackett.

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02-10-2013, 03:53 PM
  #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANOZ28 View Post
i really dont understand why CF re-signed harding when we has several goalies waiting 4 their chance. i wanted harding traded . if we keep backs at a much lower renewal rate (3.5 max) what do we do with the rest? big mistake by CF. imo hacket or somebody should be gaining experience this year so they arent greenhorn next yr. did i mention CF made a mistake? ps2 he also made a mistake not keeping T-rex (theodore)
Ridiculous signing before MS diagnosis, made even worse by it. Anyone thinking Harding has trade value, get over it unless some team is desperate to get to the salary cap. Otherwise his diagnosis is the proverbial "poison-pill" - term used in the financial world.

Harding never proved himself a #1. Given many chances over the years, either got injured, or plays poorly when given the chances. There have been instances in which he had value at the trade deadline, only to look horrible in the games leading up to it. As a result, his value declined.

I agree that he should not have been resigned, and Hackett should have been given the back-up role this year. Hackett could have used the experience, plus he wasn't that bad last year when called-up. In other words, he deserved to be here. Another year in minors may end-up being a wasted year in terms of NHL-readiness. I would rather have him learning from Backstrom, as opposed to Harding. But if you think about it, neither may be here next year to learn from. Not a lot of forethought in their decision-making regarding the goalies IMO.

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02-10-2013, 04:21 PM
  #81
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Kuemper! Kuemper! Kuemper!

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02-10-2013, 04:47 PM
  #82
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Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
Hackett hasn't exactly looked that great so far this year so I don't know how much we can really expect from him assuming Backstrom is let go of after this season. If anything Kuemper will be the one making the leap rather than Hackett.
Don't know if I'm alone on this, but Hackett always looked really small in the net when he was with us last season.

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02-10-2013, 06:40 PM
  #83
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Things we have covered:

1.) claim that Backy is bad
2.) claim that Backy can't control his rebounds
3.) Defense MIGHT be an issue.
4.) Forwards are not sustaining pressure in the offensive zone
5.) Harding is not the answer
6.) claim Backy has a problem with flopping
7.) claim Backy has an injury

That is this thread recapped. Now let's break it down a little. Backy has IMO stolen as many games as he has cost us this season. How? Chicago he stole the game. Nashville the other night, he stole that game as well. He did however lose a pair of games for us.

Backy is not bad... The system is bad. I do not, nor have I ever believed in Yeo's system. I don't know how many times Backy has left a rebound that is only "juicy" because the 3-5 guys in front of him don't have their heads on a swivel and are caught staring at some chick in seat 32 row 21 section F. While they are staring someone sneaks behind them and picks it up and slamming it home. Now why are our guys staring at said imaginary hottie? Well 1 of 3 reasons, 1 being Ms. Imaginary Hottie puts Kathrine Webb to shame, 2 they have become dreamers and daydream on the ice (Unlikely as they are professionals and get paid to play, daydreaming once or twice a month on the ice is acceptable, doing it once or twice a shift, go back to the AHL and find your big boy pants.) or 3 the system has them playing in a way they are not comfortable and clearly haven't been comfortable in. Yet we still see no adjustments to the system and people still running around mindlessly.

As much as this could be about our fairly young Defensive core it could be about our clear lack of being able to put together a line combo to score issue too. Yes Parise has produced, yes Mikko has too, but so has. . . No one else has really produced(Granted Gilbert and Suter have done some producing but seriously they have another issue to worry about! CLEAR THE PUCK MAN!). Heatley was doing work first few games then lost it. Yeo and most of you said Granlund was playing horrible but I don't think 3 points in 10 games is terrible especially when it is 1 more point than our precious Seto (He needed to be traded yesteryear.). You want to give Granlund a chance to produce but you move him from 2nd center to wing, to 4th line then sit him. Meanwhile you bring up Coyle (who hasn't played terrible but still pointless in 3 games.) and throw him in with the top line? That seems weird. I would think Granlund could play 1st line and play with the 2nd line with Heatley maybe use both of their young fresh legs to help sustain pressure. . . Or perhaps we could stick with a few lines for a few games instead of switching everyone but the first line around. I mean the more you play with someone the more chemistry right? Does it not look like there has been flashes of chemistry here and there but never has a chance to develop because the next day they are split up? Yeo doesn't know what chemistry looks like if it were to slap him in the face.

Now you are probably thinking I have gotten well off the path of if goaltending is the issue. I do not believe it to be and those are some of the reasons. The moment we have people quit looking off at the imaginary chick who is better looking than Katherine Webb and start picking up their man, the moment chemistry develops between more than just Parise and Koivu we might see Backy get more confident back there because he knows the defense will clear the puck, he knows the forwards won't turn over the puck on the blue line and he will know that when he does make a mistake his team has his back and can get him that goal back.

So all in all, the problem doesn't start with goaltending, it starts with coaching, and even arguably higher than that. Fix the system, fix the problem.

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02-10-2013, 06:42 PM
  #84
saywut
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
Welp, there's some fundamental disagreement going on here.

I just plain can't wait until Backstrom is not a part of this team. If we're worse off, I'll eat crow. But, at a base level, I don't think that's going to happen.
I will be upset if Backstrom's off this team if Harding's here to stay. If we went in a different direction I would be perfectly fine, but Josh Harding is not an upgrade and buying him out should be strongly considered. GMCF continues to overpay for depth that isn't needed and he will cripple our cap if this continues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WILDhockeyfan View Post
Hackett hasn't exactly looked that great so far this year so I don't know how much we can really expect from him assuming Backstrom is let go of after this season. If anything Kuemper will be the one making the leap rather than Hackett.
Matt Hackett will require waivers next year and if GMCF is as high on him as some, he's not going to risk losing him that way, especially if we don't get external help in net considering Harding's injury history/MS/inconsistency and Backstrom's age. If Kuemper has surpassed him in the eyes of our staff then waivers/trade is likely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSaw View Post
Don't know if I'm alone on this, but Hackett always looked really small in the net when he was with us last season.
While he did look small it was still effective. I would have liked to get a legit NHL look at him this season but GMCF elected to re-sign Harding.

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02-10-2013, 07:20 PM
  #85
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i believe last yr trade deadline we could have traded harding for a 2nd, instead CF re-signed him and now we are stuck! STUPID MOVE by CF. ps espn rumor said CF wanted more than a 2nd. again stupid gm decision. ps2 anybody that thinks gms are perfect is smokin cr@@@.

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02-10-2013, 07:47 PM
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DANOZ28 View Post
i believe last yr trade deadline we could have traded harding for a 2nd, instead CF re-signed him and now we are stuck! STUPID MOVE by CF. ps espn rumor said CF wanted more than a 2nd. again stupid gm decision. ps2 anybody that thinks gms are perfect is smokin cr@@@.
If Bobrovsky is worth a 2nd and 2 4ths during the off-season, then Harding is certainly worth more than a 2nd at the deadline.

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02-10-2013, 07:52 PM
  #87
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Originally Posted by DANOZ28 View Post
i believe last yr trade deadline we could have traded harding for a 2nd, instead CF re-signed him and now we are stuck! STUPID MOVE by CF. ps espn rumor said CF wanted more than a 2nd. again stupid gm decision. ps2 anybody that thinks gms are perfect is smokin cr@@@.
Which teams do you think would have traded for Harding last season?

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02-10-2013, 10:26 PM
  #88
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Personally I think it's time to begin the future in net and trade Backstrom, bring up Hackett and make him our #1, let Kuemper be the clearcut #1 in Houston. Neither Backs nor Hards are anything special any more. Backs is now more of a solid veteran backup type IMO and I think his value only drops from this day forward. This way Hackett and Kuemper get the playing time, we get an assett back for Backstrom and get things set up for next year. It's time.

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02-10-2013, 10:30 PM
  #89
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Originally Posted by PariseSuterKoivu View Post
Personally I think it's time to begin the future in net and trade Backstrom, bring up Hackett and make him our #1, let Kuemper be the clearcut #1 in Houston. Neither Backs nor Hards are anything special any more. Backs is now more of a solid veteran backup type IMO and I think his value only drops from this day forward. This way Hackett and Kuemper get the playing time, we get an assett back for Backstrom and get things set up for next year. It's time.
Name one team that: 1. needs goaltending 2. Backstrom is a clear upgrade and 3. can take on his cap hit.

Prior to the Bobrovsky trade, I would've said Columbus and.... No one.

Like it or not, we're stuck with Backstrom for the time being.

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02-10-2013, 10:35 PM
  #90
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Which teams do you think would have traded for Harding last season?
Chicago and STL have been two teams that always appeared to have strong interest

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02-10-2013, 10:39 PM
  #91
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Chicago and STL have been two teams that always appeared to have strong interest
Chicago I could see had they not been dead set on giving Crawford another chance, but STL? They had the best goalie tandem in the NHL last year. o_O

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02-10-2013, 10:39 PM
  #92
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
Name one team that: 1. needs goaltending 2. Backstrom is a clear upgrade and 3. can take on his cap hit.

Prior to the Bobrovsky trade, I would've said Columbus and.... No one.

Like it or not, we're stuck with Backstrom for the time being.
I'm not sure there's a market for Backstrom at the moment, but you know how quickly things can change as far as NHL goaltending goes. Backstrom has a good resume and if he proves he's healthy he'll draw some interest eventually from a playoff team looking for a solid veteran down the stretch. I don't really care what we get in return as long as we lose his contract.

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02-10-2013, 10:46 PM
  #93
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I don't really care what we get in return as long as we lose his contract.
Eh? He's on the last year of that contract.. And why would we trade our #1 goaltender when we're supposedly trying to make a playoff push ourselves?

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02-10-2013, 10:46 PM
  #94
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Chicago I could see had they not been dead set on giving Crawford another chance, but STL? They had the best goalie tandem in the NHL last year. o_O
Think STL was the year before...IDK. I remember there were a lot of things from Russo and Co. stating he was near signing (think before Montreal did their run so maybe awhile ago) but didn't because he wasn't going to be the starter there

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02-10-2013, 11:29 PM
  #95
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Originally Posted by Vashanesh View Post
Name one team that: 1. needs goaltending 2. Backstrom is a clear upgrade and 3. can take on his cap hit.

Prior to the Bobrovsky trade, I would've said Columbus and.... No one.

Like it or not, we're stuck with Backstrom for the time being.
The Islanders are stockpiling old goalies

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02-11-2013, 01:02 AM
  #96
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Backstrom is staying and that's the end of it. Maybe he gets dealt at the deadline if we're not in contention (but I think we will be), but I wouldn't be surprised to see him re-signed for another year to be honest at around $4 million.

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