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The History of Hockey Relive great moments in hockey history and discuss how the game has changed over time.

Yzerman vs Sakic

View Poll Results: Yzerman or Sakic
Stevie Y 131 46.79%
Sakic 149 53.21%
Voters: 280. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-24-2013, 05:03 PM
  #176
Lafleurs Guy
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Honestly, if Stevie hadn't have run into the injuries that slowed him down permanently in 93/94, this poll wouldn't even be close.

At their absolute best, 100% healthy, Yzerman was clearly the better player.
I think you're right. Sakic managed to stay healthier and play at a higher level for longer but I always saw Yzerman as the better player. I know people talk about Yzerman switching styles later on but he really wasn't the same guy after getting hurt. When he was healthy he could beat teams by himself. He was crazy good. And I think he's getting hurt changed things. Yzerman had bad luck with injuries. In '88 he gets 50 in just over 60 games. If he's healthy that year you're looking at three straight 60 goal 125+ point seasons... on terrible teams.
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Originally Posted by Hobnobs View Post
Yes, the first two or three years... Then they had a nice core in place but were to your to consistantly compete but by then Sakic had good linemates like Sundin, Nolan and later on a good supports cast on defense led by Duchesne.

It took 7 or 8 years for Yzerman to get something similiar.
Yup. And even when they were terrible, Sakic still had Peter Stastny there to help. Sakic had better teammates for the most part.

Gerrard Gallant wasn't a terrible player but he certainly wasn't going to make Yzerman any better the way Sundin or Forsberg would. It wasn't until Fedorov shows up almost a decade later that he has much in the way of help. Gallant is a 50 something point player at best without Yzerman. Yzerman was basically playing on the Islanders of today for a long time.

Anyways... I have no problem with somebody taking Sakic. He was amazing and was playing at a high level well into his late 30s and there's a lot to be said for that. Only thing that could slow him down was a snowblower.


Last edited by Lafleurs Guy: 02-24-2013 at 07:17 PM.
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Old
02-24-2013, 05:53 PM
  #177
Fred Taylor
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It's always a close comparison but I go with Sakic by a hair. He managed to sustain his offense while playing a good defensive game.

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02-24-2013, 07:55 PM
  #178
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Give me Joe Sakic, dude stepped up when it was clutch time.

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02-24-2013, 08:22 PM
  #179
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I've noticed most Yzerman fans have ignored the playoffs, Sakic wins in that department no matter how you slice it. In 1996 he outscores forsberg by a wide margin, 1997 he leads the playoffs in ppg, in 2001 leads the playoffs in scoring while Forsberg is injured. Sakic is just flat out better in the playoffs.

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02-24-2013, 08:23 PM
  #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I've noticed most Yzerman fans have ignored the playoffs, Sakic wins in that department no matter how you slice it. In 1996 he outscores forsberg by a wide margin, 1997 he leads the playoffs in ppg, in 2001 leads the playoffs in scoring while Forsberg is injured. Sakic is just flat out better in the playoffs.
Don't forget MVP of the 2002 Olympics.

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02-24-2013, 10:22 PM
  #181
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Don't forget MVP of the 2002 Olympics.
Lemieux: 5 games, 2-4-6
Yzerman: 6 games, 2-4-6
Sakic: 6 games, 4-3-7

I don't recall who played the game Lemieux missed, but that's evenly distributed scoring on that line. Sakic is clearly the "triggerman" as one might expect given where each of them are at in their career.

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02-24-2013, 10:24 PM
  #182
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I've noticed most Yzerman fans have ignored the playoffs, Sakic wins in that department no matter how you slice it. In 1996 he outscores forsberg by a wide margin, 1997 he leads the playoffs in ppg, in 2001 leads the playoffs in scoring while Forsberg is injured. Sakic is just flat out better in the playoffs.
Yeah because Stevie was never clutch in the playoffs right?
It's not like he went head to head with Gretzky in '87, outscoring him while keeping him in check.
You realise he also has a Conn in '98.
Not to mention his '02 playoffs at age 37, skating on one leg because his other knee had no cartilage, leading his team in scoring while hoisting the Cup.

@Devil
Remind me again who was centering Sakic in those Olympics, playing every PK and who was taking every important draw?

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02-24-2013, 10:28 PM
  #183
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah because Stevie was never clutch in the playoffs right?
strawman.

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It's not like he went head to head with Gretzky in '87, outscoring him while keeping him in check.
Gretzky's concussion had a lot to do with that.

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You realise he also has a Conn in '98.
Not to mention his '02 playoffs at age 37, skating on one leg because his other knee had no cartilage, leading his team in scoring while hoisting the Cup.
Yzerman was a great playoff performer in the second half of his career, but Sakic might be the most clutch player of the era.

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@Devil
Remind me again who was centering Sakic in those Olympics, playing every PK and who was taking every important draw?
You're obviously talking about Yzerman, one of many players who played well on Canada when Sakic won his well-deserved MVP.

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02-24-2013, 10:36 PM
  #184
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Yzerman was a great playoff performer in the second half of his career, but Sakic might be the most clutch player of the era.
Yeah, you're right, Stevie's playoff resume would look a lot better if he didn't make the playoffs until his team was stacked too

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02-24-2013, 11:12 PM
  #185
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
I've noticed most Yzerman fans have ignored the playoffs, Sakic wins in that department no matter how you slice it. In 1996 he outscores forsberg by a wide margin, 1997 he leads the playoffs in ppg, in 2001 leads the playoffs in scoring while Forsberg is injured. Sakic is just flat out better in the playoffs.
You've got to be fair though, Sakic is on a cup winning team in his 3rd postseason. Yzerman is on horrible teams for the better part of a decade. It's apples and oranges.

Sakic holds the edge but it's not nearly as huge as you're saying it is and he's playing on great teams most of the time. I'd say both performed pretty equally in the playoffs for the most part. Sakic has a great cup run at 26 years old (something Yzerman could only dream of at that age) and again at 27. Yzerman doesn't have a great team until the mid 90s and by then he's on the decline but still picks up a Conn Smythe.

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02-24-2013, 11:16 PM
  #186
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You've got to be fair though, Sakic is on a cup winning team in his 3rd postseason. Yzerman is on horrible teams for the better part of a decade. It's apples and oranges.

Sakic holds the edge but it's not nearly as huge as you're saying it is and he's playing on great teams most of the time. I'd say both performed pretty equally in the playoffs for the most part. Sakic has a great cup run at 26 years old (something Yzerman could only dream of at that age) and again at 27. Yzerman doesn't have a great team until the mid 90s and by then he's on the decline but still picks up a Conn Smythe.
What does that have to do with Sakic completely outscoring forsberg in 96, leading the league in ppg in 97, and leading the playoffs in scoring in 2001 when forsberg is injured. No they are not equals in the playoffs, Sakic was flat out better.

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02-24-2013, 11:21 PM
  #187
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
What does that have to do with Sakic completely outscoring forsberg in 96, leading the league in ppg in 97, and leading the playoffs in scoring in 2001 when forsberg is injured. No they are not equals in the playoffs, Sakic was flat out better.
It doesn't matter that he outscores Forsberg. What matters is that he's on a team with Forsberg and a ton of other great players and going to the cup while Yzerman is on a team that barely makes the playoffs and playing with Gerrard Gallant. There's no way that this is apples to apples dude.

Of course Sakic is going to do better. He's on a cup winning team his 3rd postseason appearance in. How the hell is Yzerman going to make it to the 3rd round with the teams he's on? Most of the time it's a first round exit. The guy has Greg Hanlon as his goalie for Pete's sake, how's he supposed to make it past the 2nd round?

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02-24-2013, 11:32 PM
  #188
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
It doesn't matter that he outscores Forsberg. What matters is that he's on a team with Forsberg and a ton of other great players and going to the cup while Yzerman is on a team that barely makes the playoffs and playing with Gerrard Gallant. There's no way that this is apples to apples dude.

Of course Sakic is going to do better. He's on a cup winning team his 3rd postseason appearance in. How the hell is Yzerman going to make it to the 3rd round with the teams he's on? Most of the time it's a first round exit. The guy has Greg Hanlon as his goalie for Pete's sake, how's he supposed to make it past the 2nd round?
Okay then how come this formula is never brought up when sakic gets compared to old timers like trottier and bobby clarke? How come trottier is never accused on this forum of playing on the same line with an all time great and on a dynasty? Its never brought up that they played on stacked teams in an unbalanced league? This type of criticism is always used against a modern player like Sakic, but its completely bullet proof to the beloved lafluer-bossy-trottier-clarke group of players.

Just to inform you, sakic didnt make it out of the first round in his first 7 seasons eaither. Yzerman would have never had a better playoff run than sakic 96, make any excuse you want, this is about accomplishments, not what could have been. Yes it does matter that he outscored forsberg 34-22, yzerman would have never done that and neither would trottier or clarke. If trottier played with forsberg, and forsberg gets injured, trottier's production would tank and the avs would get eliminated, he wouldnt carry them like the way sakic did in 2001.

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02-24-2013, 11:37 PM
  #189
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Originally Posted by Rhiessan71 View Post
Yeah, you're right, Stevie's playoff resume would look a lot better if he didn't make the playoffs until his team was stacked too
Yeah, Sakic first made the playoffs on the 1992-93 Nordiques. His fifth season. Sakic would miss the next year and then make it again in 1995 on the ridiculously stacked 1995 Nordiques.

Yzerman's fifth season was 1987-88. His seventh was 1989-90.

Awards won and playoff scoring by the end of the player's fifth season:

Yzerman: All-rookie team (84), Calder nominee (84)
26GP, 11-20-31
Sakic: none, 6GP, 3-3-6

Awards won and playoff scoring by the end of the player's seventh season:

Yzerman: Pearson (89), All-rookie team (84), Hart nominee (89), Calder nominee (84)
32GP, 16-25-41
Sakic: none, 12GP, 7-4-11

Yzerman was also PPG for his CAREER in the playoffs until the end of 1996-97 saw him drop slightly below. I'm sure that big silver Cup at the end was worth it though.

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02-24-2013, 11:41 PM
  #190
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Yeah, Sakic first made the playoffs on the 1992-93 Nordiques. His fifth season. Sakic would miss the next year and then make it again in 1995 on the ridiculously stacked 1995 Nordiques.

Yzerman's fifth season was 1987-88. His seventh was 1989-90.

Awards won and playoff scoring by the end of the player's fifth season:

Yzerman: All-rookie team (84), Calder nominee (84)
26GP, 11-20-31
Sakic: none, 6GP, 3-3-6

Awards won and playoff scoring by the end of the player's seventh season:

Yzerman: Pearson (89), All-rookie team (84), Hart nominee (89), Calder nominee (84)
32GP, 16-25-41
Sakic: none, 12GP, 7-4-11

Yzerman was also PPG for his CAREER in the playoffs until the end of 1996-97 saw him drop slightly below. I'm sure that big silver Cup at the end was worth it though.
Yzerman was a ppg in an era where the league was averaging between 6.3-7.7 goals per game, yeah hes the much better playoff performer. His production dropped come playoff time.

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02-24-2013, 11:46 PM
  #191
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Originally Posted by Lafleurs Guy View Post
You've got to be fair though, Sakic is on a cup winning team in his 3rd postseason. Yzerman is on horrible teams for the better part of a decade. It's apples and oranges.

Sakic holds the edge but it's not nearly as huge as you're saying it is and he's playing on great teams most of the time. I'd say both performed pretty equally in the playoffs for the most part. Sakic has a great cup run at 26 years old (something Yzerman could only dream of at that age) and again at 27. Yzerman doesn't have a great team until the mid 90s and by then he's on the decline but still picks up a Conn Smythe.
By the mid-1990s? The Red Wings were the #1 seed in 1991-92, and they stayed in the mid-90 to 100+ pace for points every year after that (106-point average). He "could only dream of" having a great Cup run at 26? He was on the #2 team in the entire league - the same as Sakic in 1996. Look at the six playoffs leading up to Yzerman's Conn Smythe in 1998:

Yzerman (ages 26-31)
74 GP, 27-37-64, -3
14th in Playoff Scoring
35th in Playoff Points-Per-Game (min. 20 GP)

I mean, he's not bad prior to 1998, but he's certainly nothing special as a playoff performer even when he had a great team, and in fact had better numbers when he was on a bad team (47 points in 39 games prior to 1992). He was a 1.26 point-per-game player in the regular season at this time, but fell to 0.86 despite having home-ice in all but two playoff series in those six years (1997 WCF and 1997 SCF). His 1998 and 2002 certainly add to his overall playoff value, but let's not pretend that he didn't have the opportunity to run up some offensive numbers on some good Red Wings teams.

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02-25-2013, 12:09 AM
  #192
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Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Okay then how come this formula is never brought up when sakic gets compared to old timers like trottier and bobby clarke? How come trottier is never accused on this forum of playing on the same line with an all time great and on a dynasty? Its never brought up that they played on stacked teams in an unbalanced league? This type of criticism is always used against a modern player like Sakic, but its completely bullet proof to the beloved lafluer-bossy-trottier-clarke group of players.
I've made arguments against Lafleur in the past year. IIRC, you were involved in the threads.

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he wouldnt carry them like the way sakic did in 2001.
You just lost huge credibility points. Trottier was a great player in his own right before Bossy was established. But the most applicable case is the 1986-87 playoffs.

The Islanders went to the end of the second round, both series going seven games. Bossy only played in six games, and only scored five points. Trottier scored 8 goals and 13 points in those 14 games. Young star Pat LaFontaine (12 points) and Mikko Makela (6 points) are the only other Islanders who outscored Bossy.

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02-25-2013, 12:16 AM
  #193
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
I've made arguments against Lafleur in the past year. IIRC, you were involved in the threads.



You just lost huge credibility points. Trottier was a great player in his own right before Bossy was established. But the most applicable case is the 1986-87 playoffs.

The Islanders went to the end of the second round, both series going seven games. Bossy only played in six games, and only scored five points. Trottier scored 8 goals and 13 points in those 14 games. Young star Pat LaFontaine (12 points) and Mikko Makela (6 points) are the only other Islanders who outscored Bossy.
Yes that compares to leading the playoffs in scoring and single handily beating the devils. In other words, yzerman never peaked as high as sakic in the playoffs, and generally dropped in his production come playoff time so im going to make other arguments to build around it, gotcha.

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02-25-2013, 12:29 AM
  #194
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Originally Posted by TheDevilMadeMe View Post
Gretzky's concussion had a lot to do with that.
According to every game/series recap, the Red Wing's team D and specifically Yzerman matchup had a lot to do with that.

Why didnt the concussion not play a big role in the first 4 games vs Philly where Gretzky had 4 straight with 2 or more points while only previously having 2 points in the entire Detroit series. Philly was a good defensive team with a very hot goalie too.

Quote:
You're obviously talking about Yzerman, one of many players who played well on Canada when Sakic won his well-deserved MVP.
Sakic scored 4 of his 7 points in the gold medal game. Granted that alone makes him deserving of the MVP of a short tournament but it isnt like Yzerman was far behind and he had 5 points in the first 5 games compared to Sakic's 3.

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By the mid-1990s? The Red Wings were the #1 seed in 1991-92, and they stayed in the mid-90 to 100+ pace for points every year after that (106-point average). He "could only dream of" having a great Cup run at 26? He was on the #2 team in the entire league - the same as Sakic in 1996. Look at the six playoffs leading up to Yzerman's Conn Smythe in 1998:

Yzerman (ages 26-31)
74 GP, 27-37-64, -3
14th in Playoff Scoring
35th in Playoff Points-Per-Game (min. 20 GP)

I mean, he's not bad prior to 1998, but he's certainly nothing special as a playoff performer even when he had a great team, and in fact had better numbers when he was on a bad team (47 points in 39 games prior to 1992). He was a 1.26 point-per-game player in the regular season at this time, but fell to 0.86 despite having home-ice in all but two playoff series in those six years (1997 WCF and 1997 SCF). His 1998 and 2002 certainly add to his overall playoff value, but let's not pretend that he didn't have the opportunity to run up some offensive numbers on some good Red Wings teams.
Injuries. Yes players still play and produce with injuries and obv Yzerman did though it is unrealistic to expect FULL production.

92: Yzerman broke a rib in game 2 of Minnesota series. From THN 1992-93 preview article "Stevie Why...don't you get more respect?" Bryan Murray says: "Stevie played so hard in the playoffs," Murray said. "He broke a rib in Game 2 against Minnesota and that hurt him some. But he played courageous hockey. He paid the price defensively every shift. He continued to go hard to the net. You couldn't for one moment fault his effort." Murray also said similar thing about injury and yet not missing a shift when interviewed in the Sporting News preview.

93: Yzerman scored 3 goals and 5 points in first 2 games of Toronto series as the Wings win easily. Misses practice before games 3 and 4 and suggestions of a wrist injury appear (though Yzerman said he was fine) and the Wings drop the next 3. Gilmour did outplay Yzerman head to head in games 3 and 4 but Yzerman outplayed Gilmour in game 6. Still if you want to point to a playoff where Yzerman could have played better given the circumstances this is the one...

94: Was out with knee injury to start playoffs and rushed back though not fully recovered from his injury because Red Wings hadnt beaten the Sharks yet for the last 3 games.

95: Actually had arthroscopic surgery during the playoffs after game 4 vs the Sharks. Stats before were 10 points in 8 games...

96: Yzerman played so well esp compared the the seriously underachieving team and had such a media friendly playoff this year with the 'guarantee' to win game 6 vs the Blues and then the OT goal in game 7 that the Free Press published the book "Steve Yzerman: Heart of a Champion" with the entire thesis that though Yzerman hasnt won he is a winner. But anyway before getting hurt (groin) in game 1 of the Colorado series Yzerman had 8 goals and 17 points. Only 2 assists after coming back in game 3.

97: Again nobody would call this anything but a good playoff run despite the stats being the worst of his career (winning helps here too) due to Yzerman's D but after the cup win it came out that BOTH of Yzerman's knees were hurt during 97.

PPG looks pretty good if Yzerman sat out the 92 playoffs after the rib injury, the entire 94 playoffs and played only first 2 games of 93, sat out after surgery in 95, and sat out after the groin injury in 96

91: 3G 6P in 3GP before injury (knee - see hockeydraftcentral for details)
92: 1G in 1GP before injury
93: 3G 5P in 2GP before injury (suspected)
94: DNP
95: 2G 10P in 8GP before injury
96: 8G 17P in 13GP before injury

27GP 18G 39P

Good stats and the team success also seems to go with Yzerman. Big series leads in 91 and 93 before injury, obv Yzerman carried the team in 96 to Conference Finals before injury.


Last edited by toob: 02-25-2013 at 12:50 AM.
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02-25-2013, 02:41 AM
  #195
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So...

Gretzky's concussion in 1987 doesn't matter; Yzerman shut him down.
Sakic's separated shoulder in 2001 doesn't matter; Yzerman skated on one knee.
Yzerman's injuries from 1992-1996 matter; they're an excuse for low production.


Am I missing anything?

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02-25-2013, 03:02 AM
  #196
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So...

Gretzky's concussion in 1987 doesn't matter; Yzerman shut him down.
Sakic's separated shoulder in 2001 doesn't matter; Yzerman skated on one knee.
Yzerman's injuries from 1992-1996 matter; they're an excuse for low production.


Am I missing anything?
Nope, you pretty much got it all.

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02-25-2013, 08:40 AM
  #197
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So...

Gretzky's concussion in 1987 doesn't matter; Yzerman shut him down.
As was stated before, his concussion didn't seem to affect him when he faced a far tougher Flyers team the next round. He only appears to have been affected by it in the minds of Yzerman detractors for that one five-game series.

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Sakic's separated shoulder in 2001 doesn't matter; Yzerman skated on one knee.
Not exactly; it's more that Sakic having one big season despite an injury can't be used as an argument against Yzerman, who had one big season immediately after a worse injury.

Quote:
Yzerman's injuries from 1992-1996 matter; they're an excuse for low production.
Yzerman suffered a herniated disc in 1994 and was never the same player after that except for glimpses in 99-00, even before he changed to be a more defensive player.

Quote:
Am I missing anything?
As with the Yzerman vs. Messier debate, you've left out this important factor:

"Sakic's playoff resume is better - never mind that he played most of his playoff games on a stacked team in his prime while Yzerman played his entire prime on a weak team and played most of his playoff games post-prime."

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02-25-2013, 10:00 AM
  #198
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Originally Posted by quoipourquoi View Post
So...

Gretzky's concussion in 1987 doesn't matter; Yzerman shut him down.
Sakic's separated shoulder in 2001 doesn't matter; Yzerman skated on one knee.
Yzerman's injuries from 1992-1996 matter; they're an excuse for low production.

Am I missing anything?
youre missing a lot...

1) Who has said Gretzky's concussion didnt matter? At least you were implying that Yzerman's play didn't matter much in the old Messier thread. Given that Yzerman was EXPLICITLY given credit for his play against Gretzky in 87 it is a little much to presume that the concussion was the MAIN thing that dropped Gretzky from his scoring pace in the first two series. Add to that his performance against Philly just 3 days after the end of the Detroit series.

I mean the case for Messier shutting down Trottier in 84 is exactly that based on eyewitnesses. Not at all on stats because Trottier increased his production against the Oilers. So why isnt the same type of case applicable for Yzerman?

2) I dont know anyone who said Sakic's separated shoulder didnt matter in this thread.

3) Since Yzerman clearly showed with his run in 87 that he could put up a great playoff performance. AND he clearly showed past his prime that he could put up great playoff performances... AND he showed in during his prime when he wasnt injured (toe problem in 89 but nevermind that) that he could produce and then go to the WCs and produce a ton there too... AND he showed that before getting hurt in the early/mid 90s that he could produce quite well in the playoffs to the tune of 27GP 18G 39P... What exactly am i missing?

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02-25-2013, 11:07 AM
  #199
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Okay then how come this formula is never brought up when sakic gets compared to old timers like trottier and bobby clarke? How come trottier is never accused on this forum of playing on the same line with an all time great and on a dynasty? Its never brought up that they played on stacked teams in an unbalanced league? This type of criticism is always used against a modern player like Sakic, but its completely bullet proof to the beloved lafluer-bossy-trottier-clarke group of players.
I have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know what kind of debates you've had in regards to Trottier or whoever...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Just to inform you, sakic didnt make it out of the first round in his first 7 seasons eaither.
That's right. He's in his early 20s and in his prime by the time he gets there. This also helps him when you look at postseason totals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
Yzerman would have never had a better playoff run than sakic 96,
How the hell can we possibly know this? He has his best season when he's in his early 20s and he's on awful teams. There's absolutely no way to know this. For Pete's sake the guy has 10 points in 6 games in '89. That comes out to 36 points over 22 games... two better than Sakic's season.

So don't sit there and try to tell us that he couldn't have had a better run because on a point per game basis he actually did. Too bad he had Greg Hanlon in net and crap for teammates.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ushvinder View Post
make any excuse you want, this is about accomplishments, not what could have been. Yes it does matter that he outscored forsberg 34-22, yzerman would have never done that and neither would trottier or clarke. If trottier played with forsberg, and forsberg gets injured, trottier's production would tank and the avs would get eliminated, he wouldnt carry them like the way sakic did in 2001.
It's not an excuse, it's the reality of the situation. You can't have one guy on a terrible team during the majority of his best years and the other guy on great teams and then point to playoff success.

I think Joe Sakic was wicked. I'm not going to try to tear the guy down at all. But if you flip the teams around and when they come into the league it's a totally different situation.

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02-25-2013, 11:10 AM
  #200
pdd
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I think the biggest and most important thing we've all learned from the Steve Yzerman vs. Joe Sakic debate is this:

Patrick Roy is better than Tim Cheveldae/Glen Hanlon/Greg Stefan.

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