HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > NHL Eastern Conference > Atlantic Division > Toronto Maple Leafs
Notices

12/13 Draft Thread: Browsing Craig's List 20-24.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-26-2013, 12:30 PM
  #476
sniper81
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: toronto
Posts: 1,050
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pi View Post
Nurse's scouting report reminds me too much of Luke Schenn. I wouldn't use a top 10 pick on him. Go big or go home.
Way different imo, Darnell has good feet and he can move effortlessly sometimes. His needs to make his decisions with the puck a bit quicker but that has been coming along. Nurse is alot more athletic and call me crazy but i think he will be stronger than schenn in a few years, Nurse also has more offensive potential.
I would only take Nurse around the 10-13 range though.

sniper81 is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 12:36 PM
  #477
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by LeafsMonster View Post
I think mackinnon will end up being the more complete player, but I feel like drouin will take the NHl by storm when he enters. IMO he will be the more dynamic player, but he won't be able to dance around dmen like he does now.
I wouldn't be so sure about that. It happens more than you think at the NHL level. His talent is so high I wouldn't be so sure that he couldn't. And besides, those moves don't define his game. He's so much more than that.

theIceWookie is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 12:43 PM
  #478
Epictetus
Global Moderator
Create yourself.
 
Epictetus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,444
vCash: 4200
There is no 'Russian factor' with Nichuskin. Yes, he has a contract signed with a Russian team, but it's actually a good thing. It means he will develop in the superior KHL, rather than the inferior North American junior system.

This should be the developing pattern for Russians, I feel. Grow up in your culture, speak your own language, play your style of game, dominate, meet veterans, and then, when you become experienced, make the jump over to the 'big leagues'. I don't see the value in bringing an 18 year old kid across the pond, if he still needs development.

But of course this will make many people feel insecure, so Russians will continue to drop. Such is life; reason comes secondary to feelings.

Epictetus is online now  
Old
02-26-2013, 12:45 PM
  #479
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
Nurse has a really risky part of his game that I am uneasy with, his decision making reminds me of Jesse Blacker. A lot of skill, size, and tools there. But are his instincts like Luke Schenn or Jacob Trouba? That's the million dollar question, at #10 with this draft, don't want to waste a pick on him and maybe wrong.
I'm not sure I see the comparison. Nurse has a much better shot and better offensive instincts than Schenn ever had. Nurse has one less goal this season than Schenn had in all three WHL seasons. I see Franson as a better development comparison for Nurse. A meaner Franson really.

theIceWookie is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 12:49 PM
  #480
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
There is no 'Russian factor' with Nichuskin. Yes, he has a contract signed with a Russian team, but it's actually a good thing. It means he will develop in the superior KHL, rather than the inferior North American junior system.

This should be the developing pattern for Russians, I feel. Grow up in your culture, speak your own language, play your style of game, dominate, meet veterans, and then, when you become experienced, make the jump over to the 'big leagues'. I don't see the value in bringing an 18 year old kid across the pond, if he still needs development.

But of course this will make many people feel insecure, so Russians will continue to drop. Such is life; reason comes secondary to feelings.
Seems to have worked pretty damn well for Yakupov/Grigoreno. Players develop differently. For a guy like Nichuskin, I think the KHL is a better spot for him. He's so big he'd just dummy 17-20 olds and quickly need a new challenge. DOesn't make sense for him. Others it might make more sense for.

As for the Russian factor? It certainly exists but I think its overstated. It hasn't been often that a player hasn't want to play in the NHL. Tarasenko came over. Radulov is pretty much the only NHLer to leave and choose the KHL over the NHL. Kuznetsov is pretty much the only real talented prospect to do it.

theIceWookie is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 12:50 PM
  #481
Michael Gary Scott
Toronto Maple Tron's
 
Michael Gary Scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,921
vCash: 50
Drouin might be ahead of Mackinnon, but if we had the choice and both were on the board, I don't see how we couldn't take Mackinnon. I'd take any of the big centres over drouin at this point regardless. We NEED a centre prospect.

Michael Gary Scott is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 01:00 PM
  #482
Diamond Joe Quimby
A$AP Joffrey
 
Diamond Joe Quimby's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 4,015
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Gary Scott View Post
Drouin might be ahead of Mackinnon, but if we had the choice and both were on the board, I don't see how we couldn't take Mackinnon. I'd take any of the big centres over drouin at this point regardless. We NEED a centre prospect.
I'm not sure it's a certainty that MacKinnon stays at centre. If it came down to choosing between the two, you'd have to go BPA regardless of position (whoever yours scouts and upper level management determine that to be.)

Diamond Joe Quimby is online now  
Old
02-26-2013, 01:05 PM
  #483
Epictetus
Global Moderator
Create yourself.
 
Epictetus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 14,444
vCash: 4200
Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Seems to have worked pretty damn well for Yakupov/Grigoreno.
You could make the case that Grigorenko would be better off in the KHL. As of now he is a healthy scratch, which shows that the transition is not exactly easy for him.

As for Yakupov, you could probably argue the same, though it's probably not as strong of an argument like it is for Grigorenko.

But I also said: I don't see the value in bringing an 18 year old kid across the pond, if he still needs development.

The bolded is the key. The Edmonton Oilers obviously felt he did not need development, so they brought him over.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Players develop differently. For a guy like Nichuskin, I think the KHL is a better spot for him. He's so big he'd just dummy 17-20 olds and quickly need a new challenge. DOesn't make sense for him. Others it might make more sense for.
Again, I don't see a justification for wanting to bring any 18 year old Russian kid over and then throw him in juniors. The KHL is a better development league. Obviously this wouldn't apply though, if a general manager feels the kid can play in the NHL straight away.

Right now, it seems more of a insecure reaction, rather than a logical one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
As for the Russian factor? It certainly exists but I think its overstated.
What happened was that the KHL started to gain publicity and more respect, so people became threatened. Now, it's become quite clear that Russian players would still prefer to play in the NHL, if given a chance.

The only thing I have a problem with is that if things do not go their way (meaning on their terms), then they have an easy out, or league to fall back on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Radulov is pretty much the only NHLer to leave and choose the KHL over the NHL.
I would say he is the only case where a Russian player leaving actually screwed over an NHL team.

Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
is pretty much the only real talented prospect to do it.
His case is extremely different. He has been quoted as saying that he wants to play in the NHL, and for the Washington Capitals. However, he has said that he feels he is not emotionally and physically ready for it (hence him not coming over this season). The lockout also did not help, as it meant he would have to screw his Russian team out of their contract and just abandon them mid-season.

Now, he has suggested that it will be after Sochi. He thinks that him staying in the KHL will give him a better chance of making the Olympic team.

But, you're right. Until he actually makes the jump, then it's not fair to disregard him.

Epictetus is online now  
Old
02-26-2013, 04:24 PM
  #484
Sundinisagod
King Altelius
 
Sundinisagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
There is no 'Russian factor' with Nichuskin. Yes, he has a contract signed with a Russian team, but it's actually a good thing. It means he will develop in the superior KHL, rather than the inferior North American junior system.

This should be the developing pattern for Russians, I feel. Grow up in your culture, speak your own language, play your style of game, dominate, meet veterans, and then, when you become experienced, make the jump over to the 'big leagues'. I don't see the value in bringing an 18 year old kid across the pond, if he still needs development.

But of course this will make many people feel insecure, so Russians will continue to drop. Such is life; reason comes secondary to feelings.



It's a good thing if you know he's going to come over here after that, but you don't. The fear is that his KHL team offers him a contract that is too good to turn down, he can stay there and play for big money and be a king in his homeland...or he can come to NA and worry about getting sent to the minors and get paid minor league dollars. If Nichushkin were to play well in Russia during this contract, I'd speculate that he'd get an offer in the 4-5 million per season range with an extremely low tax rate, while here in NHL he'll get the entry level contract where he makes about 1 million per season but can get sent to the minors and make (I'm guessing) around 100k before taxes. If you were in Nichushkin's shoes, which way would you lean? It's not just the money, but not worrying about getting buried in the minors for another year or two taking home about 50-60 grand vs 4 or 5 million while living in your homeland, I don't think we can simply take it for granted that Nichushkin is going to come here when his current contract expires.


EDIT: I'm big on the kid and would love to roll the dice on him if he drops outside the top 10 or so, but I doubt that our management will draft a kid who has so much leverage over them...and that's how I'd speculate most teams to think.

Sundinisagod is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 04:35 PM
  #485
Quik
Agent 0091
 
Quik's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Unknown
Country: Canada
Posts: 4,883
vCash: 500
Honestly, if Nichushkin falls to us, then I'd be happy to take him. Claim the Russian factor all you want, that's why guys like Tarasenko and Kuznetsov dropped so far in the first round, and now one of them's tearing it up as a rookie (or was before his concussion), and the other is one of the top prospects in the NHL. Tarasenko could have taken $4 Million+ to stay in Russia, but he still came over...

Quik is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 04:36 PM
  #486
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
It's a good thing if you know he's going to come over here after that, but you don't. The fear is that his KHL team offers him a contract that is too good to turn down, he can stay there and play for big money and be a king in his homeland...or he can come to NA and worry about getting sent to the minors and get paid minor league dollars. If Nichushkin were to play well in Russia during this contract, I'd speculate that he'd get an offer in the 4-5 million per season range with an extremely low tax rate, while here in NHL he'll get the entry level contract where he makes about 1 million per season but can get sent to the minors and make (I'm guessing) around 100k before taxes. If you were in Nichushkin's shoes, which way would you lean? It's not just the money, but not worrying about getting buried in the minors for another year or two taking home about 50-60 grand vs 4 or 5 million while living in your homeland, I don't think we can simply take it for granted that Nichushkin is going to come here when his current contract expires.


EDIT: I'm big on the kid and would love to roll the dice on him if he drops outside the top 10 or so, but I doubt that our management will draft a kid who has so much leverage over them...and that's how I'd speculate most teams to think.
I have been a fa

Interactif is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 04:44 PM
  #487
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
It's a good thing if you know he's going to come over here after that, but you don't. The fear is that his KHL team offers him a contract that is too good to turn down, he can stay there and play for big money and be a king in his homeland...or he can come to NA and worry about getting sent to the minors and get paid minor league dollars. If Nichushkin were to play well in Russia during this contract, I'd speculate that he'd get an offer in the 4-5 million per season range with an extremely low tax rate, while here in NHL he'll get the entry level contract where he makes about 1 million per season but can get sent to the minors and make (I'm guessing) around 100k before taxes. If you were in Nichushkin's shoes, which way would you lean? It's not just the money, but not worrying about getting buried in the minors for another year or two taking home about 50-60 grand vs 4 or 5 million while living in your homeland, I don't think we can simply take it for granted that Nichushkin is going to come here when his current contract expires.


EDIT: I'm big on the kid and would love to roll the dice on him if he drops outside the top 10 or so, but I doubt that our management will draft a kid who has so much leverage over them...and that's how I'd speculate most teams to think.
I have been bullish on the big comrade Nichushkin probably longer than anyone here, I would be shocked if he does not go in the top 4 this year, infact maybe even at #2. Some people laughed when I said he would go higher than Barkov this year, but he is slowly or not so slowly moving to the top of the rankings. The kid is a talent, could be a dominant fwd in the NHL. Terrific combination of power and skill. His skating is extraordinary, and what I always said I liked about him, is he's more noticable as the situation gets bigger. This kid has all the makings of a future NHL star.

Interactif is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 04:56 PM
  #488
ErnieLeafs
LOVE & LIVE the Game
 
ErnieLeafs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Windsor, Ont.
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,106
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
I'm not sure I see the comparison. Nurse has a much better shot and better offensive instincts than Schenn ever had. Nurse has one less goal this season than Schenn had in all three WHL seasons. I see Franson as a better development comparison for Nurse. A meaner Franson really.
Yeah. This. Although I think his ceiling is higher than Franson's if he reaches his potential. The kid has a genuine bit of nasty in him, and his offense alone is much further along than Schenn's at this point. He skates better, and doesn't have even comparable hips in transition (speedboat turn to Schenn's freighter style). He's got quick feet, and has an hard, accurate shot.

Again, all you have to do is get to a rink and watch him to see the difference.

ErnieLeafs is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 05:09 PM
  #489
Sundinisagod
King Altelius
 
Sundinisagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I have been bullish on the big comrade Nichushkin probably longer than anyone here, I would be shocked if he does not go in the top 4 this year, infact maybe even at #2. Some people laughed when I said he would go higher than Barkov this year, but he is slowly or not so slowly moving to the top of the rankings. The kid is a talent, could be a dominant fwd in the NHL. Terrific combination of power and skill. His skating is extraordinary, and what I always said I liked about him, is he's more noticable as the situation gets bigger. This kid has all the makings of a future NHL star.
Yeah it was you who turned me onto him. I agree that he's a top 4 possibly even 1st overall talent but I would be willing to make a gentleman's wager that he doesn't go that high...the top 4 is really, really strong imho and there are some players there who could contribute to an an NHL team next year. I can't see Nichushkin being taken ahead of any of the following, based on KHL factor:

Jones
Drouin
MacKinnon
Barkov

after that I can see a team swinging for the fences maybe...but teams are over the top with this KHL factor stuff. It was even rumoured to be one of the reason's Grigorenko's stock was dropping last year, even though he was playing in the Q.

Sundinisagod is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 05:30 PM
  #490
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
It's a good thing if you know he's going to come over here after that, but you don't. The fear is that his KHL team offers him a contract that is too good to turn down, he can stay there and play for big money and be a king in his homeland...or he can come to NA and worry about getting sent to the minors and get paid minor league dollars. If Nichushkin were to play well in Russia during this contract, I'd speculate that he'd get an offer in the 4-5 million per season range with an extremely low tax rate, while here in NHL he'll get the entry level contract where he makes about 1 million per season but can get sent to the minors and make (I'm guessing) around 100k before taxes. If you were in Nichushkin's shoes, which way would you lean? It's not just the money, but not worrying about getting buried in the minors for another year or two taking home about 50-60 grand vs 4 or 5 million while living in your homeland, I don't think we can simply take it for granted that Nichushkin is going to come here when his current contract expires.


EDIT: I'm big on the kid and would love to roll the dice on him if he drops outside the top 10 or so, but I doubt that our management will draft a kid who has so much leverage over them...and that's how I'd speculate most teams to think.


Ok that's a scenario. Honestly answer me how often this has happened? How often does a kid get swayed by this?

theIceWookie is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 05:51 PM
  #491
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Yeah it was you who turned me onto him. I agree that he's a top 4 possibly even 1st overall talent but I would be willing to make a gentleman's wager that he doesn't go that high...the top 4 is really, really strong imho and there are some players there who could contribute to an an NHL team next year. I can't see Nichushkin being taken ahead of any of the following, based on KHL factor:

Jones
Drouin
MacKinnon
Barkov

after that I can see a team swinging for the fences maybe...but teams are over the top with this KHL factor stuff. It was even rumoured to be one of the reason's Grigorenko's stock was dropping last year, even though he was playing in the Q.
I was listening to Button today and he said Jones is number 1, the only way he doesn't go number 1 is if a team is deadset of picking a defenceman. But from the sounds of it, Jones will be the first pick this summer, and who can argue based on the merit of his play this year.

Number 2 is wide open, to me it comes down to the obvious 2 and Nichushkin, guys like Valeri don't come a long very often. It's not hard to see he will be an impact player in the NHL, I think he might be better suited to the NHL rather than European style of play.

His game is a hybrid Euro/NA game, this is what I believe will make him a dominant player over here.

Interactif is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 06:31 PM
  #492
7even
Moderator
Deus Ex Machina
 
7even's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Georgia
Country: United States
Posts: 7,673
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
There is no 'Russian factor' with Nichuskin. Yes, he has a contract signed with a Russian team, but it's actually a good thing. It means he will develop in the superior KHL, rather than the inferior North American junior system.
Absolutely baseless, unless you're talking solely about their competition levels. The CHL is widely heralded as being the best developmental league in existence, and that's not without merit.

7even is online now  
Old
02-26-2013, 06:49 PM
  #493
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by 7even View Post
Absolutely baseless, unless you're talking solely about their competition levels. The CHL is widely heralded as being the best developmental league in existence, and that's not without merit.
Agreed. It's a little absolutist to proclaim the KHL is the only way for a Russian to develop properly. The CHL is proven for a reason. It doesn't mean the KHL or SM-Liiga or SEL can't be other options and work just as well for some players.

theIceWookie is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 07:21 PM
  #494
Sundinisagod
King Altelius
 
Sundinisagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by theIceWookie View Post
Ok that's a scenario. Honestly answer me how often this has happened? How often does a kid get swayed by this?
Closest example I can think of is Kuznetsov, who was drafted 2010 first round I think he's signed til 2014, but I dunno his plans after that? I think NHL clubs feel they have a lot less leverage with young Russian players than North Americans in particular. There definately is a "Russian factor" when draft day rolls around, weather it's deserved or not, this can't be disputed.

Sundinisagod is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 07:25 PM
  #495
Sundinisagod
King Altelius
 
Sundinisagod's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Zagreb
Country: Croatia
Posts: 7,172
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I was listening to Button today and he said Jones is number 1, the only way he doesn't go number 1 is if a team is deadset of picking a defenceman. But from the sounds of it, Jones will be the first pick this summer, and who can argue based on the merit of his play this year.

Number 2 is wide open, to me it comes down to the obvious 2 and Nichushkin, guys like Valeri don't come a long very often. It's not hard to see he will be an impact player in the NHL, I think he might be better suited to the NHL rather than European style of play.

His game is a hybrid Euro/NA game, this is what I believe will make him a dominant player over here.

I'm not disputing how high he should be taken...

Sundinisagod is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 08:48 PM
  #496
The Naz
With God given hands
 
The Naz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,362
vCash: 500
I'd love to catch a Windsor game and see Rychel. Very interesting player to me.

The Naz is online now  
Old
02-26-2013, 08:55 PM
  #497
KlattNazty
Registered User
 
KlattNazty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 3,339
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Naz View Post
I'd love to catch a Windsor game and see Rychel. Very interesting player to me.
so up and down

KlattNazty is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 08:59 PM
  #498
Interactif
Registered User
 
Interactif's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: North York
Country: Canada
Posts: 26,168
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
I'm not disputing how high he should be taken...
I know you weren't, I just don't see Nichushkin is going to slide this draft.

Interactif is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 10:47 PM
  #499
Bernier the Boats
Formerly BBurke
 
Bernier the Boats's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,571
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Interactif View Post
I know you weren't, I just don't see Nichushkin is going to slide this draft.
Even if he does, no chance Yzerman lets this guy slip past him.

Bernier the Boats is offline  
Old
02-26-2013, 10:52 PM
  #500
theIceWookie
Pessimism Revoked
 
theIceWookie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Canada
Posts: 5,578
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sundinisagod View Post
Closest example I can think of is Kuznetsov, who was drafted 2010 first round I think he's signed til 2014, but I dunno his plans after that? I think NHL clubs feel they have a lot less leverage with young Russian players than North Americans in particular. There definately is a "Russian factor" when draft day rolls around, weather it's deserved or not, this can't be disputed.
So because one guy did it we're going to think every player with the same passport as him will do the same thing? That just doesn't make sense to me.

Do GM's have this idea? Maybe, I'm not really sure, but I don't think they should if they do.

theIceWookie is offline  
Closed Thread

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:25 PM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.