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Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-13-2013, 10:12 PM
  #151
billybudd
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Wing maybe.

But there are probably 10 centers -and just centers- you could put ahead of him (to say nothing of goalies, D and other wings).

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02-14-2013, 12:00 AM
  #152
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Selanne has had a long great career but the answer is pretty simple.

No friggin way.

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02-14-2013, 12:22 AM
  #153
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Pretty much what others have already said. He isn't top 10 but very easily could be top 20.

I can think of at least 10 (all time) that I would want ahead of Selanne. But he is a pretty amazing player!

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02-14-2013, 03:57 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
At that point, Selanne is fifth in scoring. He's well behind Lemieux, Lindros, and Jagr so there's not a discussion there. He's also behind his teammate Kariya, so he probably loses that battle this season as the two were often viewed as equals and during Kariya's peak Kariya was considered the better player.
Considering that Selanne was scoring at a 56g 121pts pace when he played with Kariya 96-97, I don't think you have a case there.

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02-14-2013, 10:55 PM
  #155
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The Hart and Art Ross trophies, though, are often indication enough of "another level". Guys from Bondra to Cheechoo to Hejduk have Richard trophies (or the "retro-version", for seasons before '98/99), but you look at the names on the Hart and Art Ross trophies and it's no comparison really.
Sure. However, if you look at the careers of Forsberg and Selänne, it's no comparison at all. One of them is still playing and contributing, and doing it well. Hard facts are hard to ignore.

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02-14-2013, 11:14 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Sure. However, if you look at the careers of Forsberg and Selänne, it's no comparison at all. One of them is still playing and contributing, and doing it well. Hard facts are hard to ignore.
Well, i guess Selanne has managed to pull himself in to the spot where he can be argued ahead of Forsberg career wise. But by no means is it clear cut case.

In 2009 the HoH section made the top-70 players all-time. Kurri was slotted in the 69th place and Forsberg in the 65th place.

By this day Kurri and Selanne are competing pretty much against each other in the all-time lists. Considering that Forsberg was 4 spots ahead of Kurri (but the difference was pretty minimal) i'd say that is around the spot where we are looking to put Selanne in.

So, these two are definitely close. Barring injuries Forsberg would be greatly ahead, but we all know how it turned out.

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02-14-2013, 11:16 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Ohashi_Jouzu View Post
The Hart and Art Ross trophies, though, are often indication enough of "another level". Guys from Bondra to Cheechoo to Hejduk have Richard trophies (or the "retro-version", for seasons before '98/99), but you look at the names on the Hart and Art Ross trophies and it's no comparison really.
Well, to be fair Selanne was a runner-up for the Art Ross twice against Jagr and Lemieux. So that is a very strong indicator that Selanne at his best was an Art Ross contender and with few things going differently he might really be winner of one or two.

He is also a Hart finalist so lets not pretend here that Selanne at his best was the same caliber player as Cheechoo, Bondra or Hedjuk. He was definitely ahead of these guys.

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02-15-2013, 12:58 AM
  #158
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Sure. However, if you look at the careers of Forsberg and Selänne, it's no comparison at all. One of them is still playing and contributing, and doing it well. Hard facts are hard to ignore.
That's not so easy, i wonder about some of you guys when it comes to comments on the 90's. Nobody in their right mind would argue Selanne was ever as dominant as Forsberg was when he was at his best. Forsberg IMO was a better player than Jagr, just had health issues. When we're talking about a guy being a top 10 forward it's certainly relevant to consider guys like Lindros and Forsberg due to their superior play during the time they were able to perform at their best. The fact that their was numerous players better than Selanne at points during his prime seasons is very relevant. Forsberg (and to a lesser degree Lindros) was so good that it is possible to argue he was superior to many a player with longer more productive careers, when we start talking top 10 peak seasons mean alot.

Also another person did post an interesting tidbit regarding Selanne and Kariya. Kariya was in fact probably the slightly more well regarded during their time together in Anaheim, which apparently makes Selanne some kind of all time great. Longevity is important, but i really do think Selannes peak years are being overrated, and i say this knowing full well he was a legitimate superstar. He was just never a guy who was considered (by pretty much anyone) to be the best player in the world, and i don't see how you can be top 20, let alone top 10, if you were never the best player during your prime seasons.

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02-15-2013, 01:08 AM
  #159
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Top 20 for sure.

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02-15-2013, 01:18 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
That's not so easy, i wonder about some of you guys when it comes to comments on the 90's. Nobody in their right mind would argue Selanne was ever as dominant as Forsberg was when he was at his best. Forsberg IMO was a better player than Jagr, just had health issues. When we're talking about a guy being a top 10 forward it's certainly relevant to consider guys like Lindros and Forsberg due to their superior play during the time they were able to perform at their best. The fact that their was numerous players better than Selanne at points during his prime seasons is very relevant. Forsberg (and to a lesser degree Lindros) was so good that it is possible to argue he was superior to many a player with longer more productive careers, when we start talking top 10 peak seasons mean alot.

Also another person did post an interesting tidbit regarding Selanne and Kariya. Kariya was in fact probably the slightly more well regarded during their time together in Anaheim, which apparently makes Selanne some kind of all time great. Longevity is important, but i really do think Selannes peak years are being overrated, and i say this knowing full well he was a legitimate superstar. He was just never a guy who was considered (by pretty much anyone) to be the best player in the world, and i don't see how you can be top 20, let alone top 10, if you were never the best player during your prime seasons.
If you take a closer look, you will see that virtually nobody is agreeing that Selanne is top-10 forward. Frankly, i don't even see a good case for top-20.

Nobody is trying to argue that Selanne at his best was as good/better than Forsberg. Since he clearly was not.

My opinion is that at time Selanne had top-tier seasons in the NHL. In very deep era for forwards. (If you win the goal race and finish second in points as a winger and are 2nd team All-Star it tells you something.) Offensively he was comparable to Forsberg but all the other aspects taken in to consideration he fell short.

I always felt that Forsberg (healthy) is the kind of player you need on your bottom-dwelling team to make it a contender to play-offs. Forsberg is the kind of guy who can be the difference between bottom-feeder and play-off team.

Selanne is the kind of guy you want, when you have a solid team who is on contention for the play-off spot and you are looking to make your team a cup contender. In another words, when you have you'r Forsberg you go and look for your Selanne.

Forsberg kind of player has much more value than Selanne kind.

That being said (i can't give any praise for a Swedish player today or i will puke. ) Forsberg was never as good as Jagr was at his best. It is a myth that has been debunked so many times that i am not even going to go there.

Selanne is on par with Kurri on all-time lists and last time it was made in HoH section Forsberg edged Kurri by 4 spots. Some conclusions can be drawn from that.

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02-15-2013, 03:37 AM
  #161
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Not even remotely close. I don't even think he makes my top 50 forwards, let alone top 10.
Wow. so a guy who could finish his career with 700 goals is not even top 50? not like he's done it Gartner style either, not to mention in an era with monster goalie pads. Selanne would have picked apart the old school goalies

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02-15-2013, 03:39 AM
  #162
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Originally Posted by skroonk2002 View Post
Gretzky
Lemieux
Howe
Richard
Beliveau
Hull
Lafleur
Messier
Jagr
Mikita
Esposito
Bossy
Clarke
Trottier
Sakic
Forsberg
Yzerman

You asked if he was "top 10". That is 17 right there, all had better careers than Selanne.

I could list more, but I am feeling lazy.

Selanne has 0 Hart Trophies, 0 Art Ross Trophies, 0 Conn Smythe Trophies, 0 Selke Trophies, etc. Only 1 Stanley Cup (as opposed to multiple Stanley Cups by many players who rank above him). Yes, he has great career statistics. But there have been others with FAR SUPERIOR resumes.

Asking if Selanne is one of the top 10 forwards ever is like asking the same question about Luc Robitaille or Brett Hull. Both Hall-of-Famers, but neither are top 10. Hull is closer than Selanne though. Robitaille and Selanne are about equal.
ah yes, overrating subjective, voter based awards, those are always accurate

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02-15-2013, 04:27 AM
  #163
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That's not so easy, i wonder about some of you guys when it comes to comments on the 90's. Nobody in their right mind would argue Selanne was ever as dominant as Forsberg was when he was at his best. Forsberg IMO was a better player than Jagr, just had health issues. When we're talking about a guy being a top 10 forward it's certainly relevant to consider guys like Lindros and Forsberg due to their superior play during the time they were able to perform at their best. The fact that their was numerous players better than Selanne at points during his prime seasons is very relevant. Forsberg (and to a lesser degree Lindros) was so good that it is possible to argue he was superior to many a player with longer more productive careers, when we start talking top 10 peak seasons mean alot.

Also another person did post an interesting tidbit regarding Selanne and Kariya. Kariya was in fact probably the slightly more well regarded during their time together in Anaheim, which apparently makes Selanne some kind of all time great. Longevity is important, but i really do think Selannes peak years are being overrated, and i say this knowing full well he was a legitimate superstar. He was just never a guy who was considered (by pretty much anyone) to be the best player in the world, and i don't see how you can be top 20, let alone top 10, if you were never the best player during your prime seasons.
Lindros and Forsberg were great but their careers were too short. The only player that I give a pass to despite short career is Bobby Orr. Neither Forsberg or Lindors are close to Orr's level.

About Kariya vs. Selänne we can only agree to disagree.

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02-15-2013, 07:53 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by eva unit zero View Post
Fifth is where I have him ranked.
97-98

Selanne was leading the league in scoring before the olympic break with 41 goals 68pts, playing with Scott Young and Steve Rucchin. Jagr had 25 goals 67pts at that point. Selanne got injured in the olympics (lead the olympics in scoring despite playing only 5 games) and was playing injured the rest of the season. Selanne's pace dropped from 60g 100pts to 53g 87pts after the injury.

Hart voting:

Dominik Hasek 499
Jaromir Jagr 303
Teemu Selanne 247
Martin Broudeur 115
Wayne Gretzky 46

Placing him below the top2 forwards in 97-98 is just plain wrong.



Lower left corner THN cover from 98 is asking the question "who's better Jagr or Selanne"

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02-15-2013, 08:03 AM
  #165
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Wow. so a guy who could finish his career with 700 goals is not even top 50? not like he's done it Gartner style either, not to mention in an era with monster goalie pads. Selanne would have picked apart the old school goalies
The early to mid nineties were certainly not a time to argue scoring being down. Mogilny also scored 76 goals in 92-93. No one is putting Alex in the top 20 all time.
Jagr was so much better than Forsberg as a player and that was after Mario retired

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02-15-2013, 08:06 AM
  #166
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
Lindros and Forsberg were great but their careers were too short. The only player that I give a pass to despite short career is Bobby Orr. Neither Forsberg or Lindors are close to Orr's level.

About Kariya vs. Selänne we can only agree to disagree.
Mike Bossy had a short career and is a HOF whos considered one of the greatest goal scorers ever

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02-15-2013, 01:27 PM
  #167
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Mike Bossy had a short career and is a HOF whos considered one of the greatest goal scorers ever
Mike Bossy is overrated. He played his whole career with Trottier. Amazing consistency though and I agree he's among alltime great goal scorer, but just ranked too high as are many others who had a short career.

Bossy top5 finishes in goals and adjusted goal totals:

1st,1st,2nd,2nd,2nd

58,52,48,48,47

Selanne top5 finishes in goals and adjusted goal totals:

1st,1st,1st,2nd,3rd

62,60,54,53,50

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02-15-2013, 04:46 PM
  #168
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Mike Bossy had a short career and is a HOF whos considered one of the greatest goal scorers ever
Who played with two of the greatest and most dominant players at their respective positions ever in Trottier and Potvin.

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02-15-2013, 04:48 PM
  #169
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Teemu is the man.
Teemu is probably one of the top 5 most well liked players ever.
Teemu isn't close to a top 10 forward.

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02-15-2013, 04:50 PM
  #170
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If you take a closer look, you will see that virtually nobody is agreeing that Selanne is top-10 forward. Frankly, i don't even see a good case for top-20.

Nobody is trying to argue that Selanne at his best was as good/better than Forsberg. Since he clearly was not.

My opinion is that at time Selanne had top-tier seasons in the NHL. In very deep era for forwards. (If you win the goal race and finish second in points as a winger and are 2nd team All-Star it tells you something.) Offensively he was comparable to Forsberg but all the other aspects taken in to consideration he fell short.

I always felt that Forsberg (healthy) is the kind of player you need on your bottom-dwelling team to make it a contender to play-offs. Forsberg is the kind of guy who can be the difference between bottom-feeder and play-off team.

Selanne is the kind of guy you want, when you have a solid team who is on contention for the play-off spot and you are looking to make your team a cup contender. In another words, when you have you'r Forsberg you go and look for your Selanne.

Forsberg kind of player has much more value than Selanne kind.

That being said (i can't give any praise for a Swedish player today or i will puke. ) Forsberg was never as good as Jagr was at his best. It is a myth that has been debunked so many times that i am not even going to go there.

Selanne is on par with Kurri on all-time lists and last time it was made in HoH section Forsberg edged Kurri by 4 spots. Some conclusions can be drawn from that.
That comment is actually 100% accurate for Jagr. Forsberg never played on any lower caliber teams only to carry them. He played on mostly stacked teams and apart from his 2002-03 Hart winning season he never had to carry a team on his own, he always had Sakic.

Jagr on the other hand took possible lottery teams and always carried them to the playoffs. No one in the late 90's to early 2000's controlled the game the way Jagr did, defense or not.


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02-15-2013, 04:53 PM
  #171
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Well, to be fair Selanne was a runner-up for the Art Ross twice against Jagr and Lemieux. So that is a very strong indicator that Selanne at his best was an Art Ross contender and with few things going differently he might really be winner of one or two.

He is also a Hart finalist so lets not pretend here that Selanne at his best was the same caliber player as Cheechoo, Bondra or Hedjuk. He was definitely ahead of these guys.
Selanne at his very best was never going to beat Lemieux or Jagr for an Art Ross. They didn't win 11 Art Ross trophies combined including 7 in a row for no reason.

Heck the season Selanne was runner up to Jagr for the Art Ross, he lost it by 20 Pts to him despite playing on the same line as Karyia who was coincidentally 3rd in scoring himself.

As for 1996-97, I'm willing to bet that if Jagr had remained healthy (even when he came back from his injury he was still playing hurt) that Lemieux and Jagr would have run away with the scoring lead, they would have resembled more the 1995-96 version. As a matter of fact, Jagr was ahead of Lemieux in scoring before going down in his first 41 games and was playing at a 130+ Pts clip.

Selanne was a 100-110 Pts player at his best usually playing with an equally dominant Karyia while Jagr was a 120-130 Pts player at his best.

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02-15-2013, 04:58 PM
  #172
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Originally Posted by Eskimo44 View Post
That's not so easy, i wonder about some of you guys when it comes to comments on the 90's. Nobody in their right mind would argue Selanne was ever as dominant as Forsberg was when he was at his best. Forsberg IMO was a better player than Jagr, just had health issues. When we're talking about a guy being a top 10 forward it's certainly relevant to consider guys like Lindros and Forsberg due to their superior play during the time they were able to perform at their best. The fact that their was numerous players better than Selanne at points during his prime seasons is very relevant. Forsberg (and to a lesser degree Lindros) was so good that it is possible to argue he was superior to many a player with longer more productive careers, when we start talking top 10 peak seasons mean alot.

Also another person did post an interesting tidbit regarding Selanne and Kariya. Kariya was in fact probably the slightly more well regarded during their time together in Anaheim, which apparently makes Selanne some kind of all time great. Longevity is important, but i really do think Selannes peak years are being overrated, and i say this knowing full well he was a legitimate superstar. He was just never a guy who was considered (by pretty much anyone) to be the best player in the world, and i don't see how you can be top 20, let alone top 10, if you were never the best player during your prime seasons.
This is a myth that has been shot down a long time ago.

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02-15-2013, 05:04 PM
  #173
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That comment is actually 100% accurate for Jagr. Forsberg never played on any lower caliber teams only to carry them. He played on mostly stacked teams and apart from his 2002-03 Hart winning season he never had to carry a team on his own, he always had Sakic.

Jagr on the other hand took possible lottery teams and always carried them to the playoffs. No one in the late 90's to early 2000's controlled the game the way Jagr did, defense or not.
So how does the bolded really matter? They didn't play on the same line so it wasn't like Sakic carried Forsberg around.

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02-15-2013, 05:08 PM
  #174
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So how does the bolded really matter? They didn't play on the same line so it wasn't like Sakic carried Forsberg around.
They actually did in 1998-99 when they were 4th and 5th in scoring respectively and they always usually played on the same PP unit as well.

Spreading Sakic and Forsberg on two different lines actually benefited them because unlike Jagr who was facing the tough defensive assignments all the time, Sakic and Forsberg weren't.

Sort of like how Malkin and Crosby are placed on two different lines now.

I mean after all Sakic is probably a top 10 center all-time in his own right something that Forsberg isn't.

That being said; by around the mid 90's onward, Selanne, Forsberg, Bure, Lindros, Sakic, Karyia and Modanno were among that group of players that were the elite of the NHL but they were never on Lemieux or Jagr's levels. They flip flopped positions from year to year on the scoring lists but they were never going to win Art Ross trophies.

In fact among that group, only Forsberg won the Art Ross (once) and it took an injured Lemieux and unmotivated, half assed Jagr for him to do so.


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02-15-2013, 05:34 PM
  #175
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Not even remotely close. I don't even think he makes my top 50 forwards, let alone top 10.
Wow, top 50? I'd like to see your top-50 list. Selanne is 12th all-time in goals scored and 18th all-time in points.

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