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Is Teemu Selanne a top 10 forward of all time?

View Poll Results: Is Teemu Selanne a Top 10 forward of all time
Yes 54 15.43%
No 296 84.57%
Voters: 350. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-17-2013, 02:07 PM
  #201
livewell68
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Forsberg missed 7games that season and still won the Art Ross.
He also had a higher PPG then Lemiux so It's possible that he would have won anyways if they played the same amount of games.
Lemieux' PPG dropped considerably, especially after he came back from injury. He was 38 and playing with a bad back and even then was still able to keep pace with Forsberg.

Just go look at Lemieux' game log starting on February 27 2003 and onward. Lemieux had but 8 Pts in his last 14 games.

He had 91 Pts in 67 games overall that season. That means he had 83 Pts in his first 53 games. That's a PPG of 1.56 over the first 53 games of the season a PPG that Forsberg never touched over the course of a season in his career. In fact Forsberg, including that 2002-03 season topped off at 1.41 PPG 3 times in his career. A healthy Lemieux would have run away with the Art Ross that season.

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02-17-2013, 02:08 PM
  #202
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Originally Posted by livewell68 View Post
Lemieux' PPG dropped considerably, especially after he came back from injury. He was 38 and playing with a bad back and even then was still able to keep pace with Forsberg.

Just go look at Lemieux' game log starting on February 27 2003 and onward. Lemieux had but 8 Pts in his last 14 games.

He had 91 Pts in 67 games overall that season. That means he had 83 Pts in his first 53 games. That's a PPG of 1.56 over the first 53 games of the season a PPG that Forsberg never touched over the course of a season in his career. In fact Forsberg, including that 2002-03 season topped off at 1.41 PPG 3 times in his career. A healthy Lemieux would have run away with the Art Ross that season.
If Lemieux was healthy Jagr might not have won any Art Ross trophies.

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02-23-2013, 12:00 PM
  #203
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It's hard to compare players from different timeperiods when you talk about who are the best players ever. To me a player has to have skill and longevity to make a alltime Top 10 list like this one. A player that doesn't reach the 1000 points mark simply can't be considered one of the alltime greats in my opinion.

No matter how great Lindroos, Forsberg or even Orr were, I wouldn't put them on a alltime greats list. The main reason for that is that all of theese players didn't have the longevity to make it to 1000 points.

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02-23-2013, 12:11 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by Mulletman View Post
It's hard to compare players from different timeperiods when you talk about who are the best players ever. To me a player has to have skill and longevity to make a alltime Top 10 list like this one. A player that doesn't reach the 1000 points mark simply can't be considered one of the alltime greats in my opinion.

No matter how great Lindroos, Forsberg or even Orr were, I wouldn't put them on a alltime greats list. The main reason for that is that all of theese players didn't have the longevity to make it to 1000 points.
I don't care what your parameters are, if you don't have Orr on a list of all-time greats that list will never be taken seriously.

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02-23-2013, 12:40 PM
  #205
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It also bugs me when people start saying that Forsberg is better than Selanne.

Forsberg played 13 seasons in the NHL, 12 of those seasons with the same team every game that he played, but he only led his team in points 4 times. That is pretty weak for a guy that should be one of the greatest ever.

Selanne has played 19 seasons in the NHL. I'm not counting the 2012-13 season because it's not over yet. He's played 17 of those seasons with the same team and led his team in points 8 times. Both times that he was traded he would have led his team in points as well if it wasn't for the trade. In 1995-96 he would have led the Jets, and in 2000-01 he would have led the Ducks in points.

Selanne first led his team in scoring back in 1992-93 and he also led his team in scoring last season, wich was 19 years after he first led his team in scoring. The only other player who has done that is Gordie Howe.

Selanne currently leads the Ducks in points, and if he leads them in points at the end of the season he will be the oldest player to do so in the history of the NHL! That would be awesome, but I doubt he can pull it off.

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02-23-2013, 04:34 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Mulletman View Post
It also bugs me when people start saying that Forsberg is better than Selanne.

Forsberg played 13 seasons in the NHL, 12 of those seasons with the same team every game that he played, but he only led his team in points 4 times. That is pretty weak for a guy that should be one of the greatest ever.

Selanne has played 19 seasons in the NHL. I'm not counting the 2012-13 season because it's not over yet. He's played 17 of those seasons with the same team and led his team in points 8 times. Both times that he was traded he would have led his team in points as well if it wasn't for the trade. In 1995-96 he would have led the Jets, and in 2000-01 he would have led the Ducks in points.

Selanne first led his team in scoring back in 1992-93 and he also led his team in scoring last season, wich was 19 years after he first led his team in scoring. The only other player who has done that is Gordie Howe.

Selanne currently leads the Ducks in points, and if he leads them in points at the end of the season he will be the oldest player to do so in the history of the NHL! That would be awesome, but I doubt he can pull it off.
Selänne is also better than Jagr because he was not leading his team in scoring when Mario was playing? Guess I shouldn't be surprised you use this logic when you state that a player many hold as the best to ever play the game is not an all time great.

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02-23-2013, 05:37 PM
  #207
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Selänne is also better than Jagr because he was not leading his team in scoring when Mario was playing? Guess I shouldn't be surprised you use this logic when you state that a player many hold as the best to ever play the game is not an all time great.
Don't take it too seriously. Every single hockey fan knows that when they were on their absolute best, Forsberg was better and most importantly, much scarier opponent.

At this point, Selanne and Forsberg are close in all-time list's. The reason why they are close is only due to Forsberg's injuries. But that hardly is Selanne's fault.

Based on preference you could rank these guys ahead of each other.

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02-23-2013, 05:53 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Don't take it too seriously. Every single hockey fan knows that when they were on their absolute best, Forsberg was better and most importantly, much scarier opponent.

At this point, Selanne and Forsberg are close in all-time list's. The reason why they are close is only due to Forsberg's injuries. But that hardly is Selanne's fault.

Based on preference you could rank these guys ahead of each other.
Yeah it's not that which bugged me, it's the logic.

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02-23-2013, 11:10 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by Jonimaus View Post
Yeah it's not that which bugged me, it's the logic.
Yeah, it got me too. But maybe it was just some weekend juice and first posts for a rookie user. Not a big deal.


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02-24-2013, 04:23 AM
  #210
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It's weird that nobody gives any credit to longevity when we start talking about alltime greats. Nobody even seem to have any standards for longevity! As long as a player is the best in the league at some point in his career he's automatically a guy for the alltime best list?

You don't need any longevity or durability as long as you shine bright for a short while. Well if you look at it like that, then soon we will realize that Darryl Sittler is by far the best player of all time, because he had 10 points in one game.

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02-24-2013, 05:37 AM
  #211
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Originally Posted by Mulletman View Post
It's weird that nobody gives any credit to longevity when we start talking about alltime greats. Nobody even seem to have any standards for longevity! As long as a player is the best in the league at some point in his career he's automatically a guy for the alltime best list?

You don't need any longevity or durability as long as you shine bright for a short while. Well if you look at it like that, then soon we will realize that Darryl Sittler is by far the best player of all time, because he had 10 points in one game.
The only player great enough to be excused for shortness of career is Bobby Orr. In the case of merely great players (i.e. down a notch or two from legendary greats) like Forsberg, Bure and Lindros, career length will have to be taken into account. Some of these players are also notoriously overrated here, due to vocal and large fanbases.

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02-24-2013, 10:39 AM
  #212
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
The only player great enough to be excused for shortness of career is Bobby Orr. In the case of merely great players (i.e. down a notch or two from legendary greats) like Forsberg, Bure and Lindros, career length will have to be taken into account. Some of these players are also notoriously overrated here, due to vocal and large fanbases.
Neely is another good one.

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02-24-2013, 12:39 PM
  #213
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Originally Posted by TAnnala View Post
Don't take it too seriously. Every single hockey fan knows that when they were on their absolute best, Forsberg was better and most importantly, much scarier opponent.

At this point, Selanne and Forsberg are close in all-time list's. The reason why they are close is only due to Forsberg's injuries. But that hardly is Selanne's fault.

Based on preference you could rank these guys ahead of each other.
Exactly, people forget that Forsberg actually played quite a bit of hockey in Sweden, internationally and the NHL and playoffs.

I'm a career guy and would have to put Selanne ahead of Forsberg but the gap is really quite small.

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02-24-2013, 12:41 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by RorschachWJK View Post
The only player great enough to be excused for shortness of career is Bobby Orr. In the case of merely great players (i.e. down a notch or two from legendary greats) like Forsberg, Bure and Lindros, career length will have to be taken into account. Some of these players are also notoriously overrated here, due to vocal and large fanbases.
Even at some point people have to realize that guys like Potvin, Bourque and Lidstrom were still very dominant in the NHL when Orr was done.

That's one equation that gets overlooked more than any other in history.

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02-24-2013, 12:54 PM
  #215
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An interesting way to frame Forsberg is to ask: should he rank above or below Sakic?

As for a top-10 list, I think the following are pretty much obvious shoo-ins that would be a consensus among any informed group of observers:

Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Bobby Hull

And the following might be subject to some debate, but they will be agreed upon by a majority of people who have really taken the time to do their homework:
Richard
Beliveau
Morenz

Then you have a large cluster who are fighting for the final three spots. At a minimum, one would have to consider the following as candidates:

Messier
Clarke
Trottier
Mikita
Esposito
Yzerman
Jagr
Bossy
Sakic
Taylor


And unless I have missed something really important about Selanne, he is clearly behind those 10 players.

So no, it's pretty much inescapable that he's not a top-10 forward. One would have to hold absolutely no respect for pre-1980 players to put him that high.

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02-24-2013, 01:11 PM
  #216
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
An interesting way to frame Forsberg is to ask: should he rank above or below Sakic?

As for a top-10 list, I think the following are pretty much obvious shoo-ins that would be a consensus among any informed group of observers:

Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Bobby Hull

And the following might be subject to some debate, but they will be agreed upon by a majority of people who have really taken the time to do their homework:
Richard
Beliveau
Morenz

Then you have a large cluster who are fighting for the final three spots. At a minimum, one would have to consider the following as candidates:

Messier
Clarke
Trottier
Mikita
Esposito
Yzerman
Jagr
Bossy
Sakic
Taylor


And unless I have missed something really important about Selanne, he is clearly behind those 10 players.

So no, it's pretty much inescapable that he's not a top-10 forward. One would have to hold absolutely no respect for pre-1980 players to put him that high.
Selanne's weakness is playoffs. Otherwise, I don't see how Bossy was better than him.

I don't see Jagr two notches below Hull either... actually, not even one notch.

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02-24-2013, 01:22 PM
  #217
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Selanne's weakness is playoffs. Otherwise, I don't see how Bossy was better than him.

I don't see Jagr two notches below Hull either... actually, not even one notch.

To me it's pretty clear that there is a decent-sized gap in terms of the way Bossy was perceived when he played and the way Selanne has been perceived throughout his career.

Bossy blew the doors off the league....9 straight years of 50+ goals to start his career including 5 seasons with 60 or more goals. Decades later Bossy's peers still marvel at just how good he was. I don't think that will be the case in the future when people talk about Selanne. There are more forwards that people would mention before Selanne when talking about the great forwards 90s and 00s.

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02-24-2013, 03:40 PM
  #218
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Originally Posted by Czech Your Math View Post
Selanne's weakness is playoffs. Otherwise, I don't see how Bossy was better than him.
Bossy was top-5 in goals 6 years in a row, and 8 years out of 9. He was top-6 in points 8 years in a row. He was a post-season all star 8 years in a row. And the thing is, he only had a 10-year career. Nearly the entire time he was in the league, he was the clear-cut best scoring winger. He lacks longevity and wasn't the most rounded player.

Teemu had that crazy rookie year, plus a three-year run in the late '90s where he placed especially high in goals and points, and in each of those 4 years he picked up All Star honors. He was better rounded offensively, as reflected in his assist totals, but he only had a fraction of Bossy's offensive résumé despite playing twice as long.

If you really value longevity you could argue that they're close to even in career value, but there's no question which was the better player.

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I don't see Jagr two notches below Hull either... actually, not even one notch.
I think it's fair to say Hull is a consensus top-10 forward. Other than people who believe the NHL started in 1993, you won't find much disagreement with that.

I personally would put Jagr top-10, but not everyone would. That's why he went on the lower list. But to be clear, he's in my personal top-10.

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02-24-2013, 04:52 PM
  #219
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Originally Posted by tarheelhockey View Post
An interesting way to frame Forsberg is to ask: should he rank above or below Sakic?

As for a top-10 list, I think the following are pretty much obvious shoo-ins that would be a consensus among any informed group of observers:

Gretzky
Howe
Lemieux
Bobby Hull

And the following might be subject to some debate, but they will be agreed upon by a majority of people who have really taken the time to do their homework:
Richard
Beliveau
Morenz

Then you have a large cluster who are fighting for the final three spots. At a minimum, one would have to consider the following as candidates:

Messier
Clarke
Trottier
Mikita
Esposito
Yzerman
Jagr
Bossy
Sakic
Taylor


And unless I have missed something really important about Selanne, he is clearly behind those 10 players.

So no, it's pretty much inescapable that he's not a top-10 forward. One would have to hold absolutely no respect for pre-1980 players to put him that high.
Pretty much agree with this but could see Bossy not on the above list if people where using a season metric, ie a points system for doing so well in a season and extra points for everything else like intangibles, playoffs, accounting for era, competition ect..

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02-24-2013, 05:22 PM
  #220
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To me it's pretty clear that there is a decent-sized gap in terms of the way Bossy was perceived when he played and the way Selanne has been perceived throughout his career.

Bossy blew the doors off the league....9 straight years of 50+ goals to start his career including 5 seasons with 60 or more goals. Decades later Bossy's peers still marvel at just how good he was. I don't think that will be the case in the future when people talk about Selanne. There are more forwards that people would mention before Selanne when talking about the great forwards 90s and 00s.
Bossy was extremely good but let's not forget that he was in a Canadian only NHL and that he had Trottier as his center for most of his career as well. 50 is a magic number in hockey but it was a heck of a lot easier to score 50 in Bossy's days than in Selanne's as well.

Even those who don't entirely buy into adjusted stats really need to look at them to compare players sometimes.

Bossy 58,52,48,48,47,47,46,43,40,32
Selanne 62,60,54,50,40,38,36,36,34,33,32,29,29,29

At some point Selanne's excellence over a longer period of time surely must count for something right?

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02-24-2013, 05:57 PM
  #221
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Bossy was extremely good but let's not forget that he was in a Canadian only NHL and that he had Trottier as his center for most of his career as well. 50 is a magic number in hockey but it was a heck of a lot easier to score 50 in Bossy's days than in Selanne's as well.
The other side of that coin is that Bossy was at the very top of that Canadian-dominated league. There was a period of almost a decade where the only player scoring more goals than Bossy was Wayne Gretzky; in a Gretzky-less league, Bossy would have had a goal scoring lead similar to a Richard or Ovechkin type figure.

And that was a league that included the great Europeans Kurri and Stastny.


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At some point Selanne's excellence over a longer period of time surely must count for something right?
Longevity would be the main argument I'd made for Selanne over Bossy. The second argument would be that Bossy was only a goal scorer whereas Teemu was more rounded.

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02-24-2013, 06:00 PM
  #222
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Bossy was extremely good but let's not forget that he was in a Canadian only NHL and that he had Trottier as his center for most of his career as well. 50 is a magic number in hockey but it was a heck of a lot easier to score 50 in Bossy's days than in Selanne's as well.

Even those who don't entirely buy into adjusted stats really need to look at them to compare players sometimes.

Bossy 58,52,48,48,47,47,46,43,40,32
Selanne 62,60,54,50,40,38,36,36,34,33,32,29,29,29

At some point Selanne's excellence over a longer period of time surely must count for something right?
Yeah, it's always an interesting thought experiment to have the players trade places. If Selanne was on Trottier's wing and Bossy was playing for the sad sack expansion Ducks, would Bossy still be viewed as clearly the better player? I highly doubt it.

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02-24-2013, 06:03 PM
  #223
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Yeah, it's always an interesting thought experiment to have the players trade places. If Selanne was on Trottier's wing and Bossy was playing for the sad sack expansion Ducks, would Bossy still be viewed as clearly the better player? I highly doubt it.
Are you taking into account that Al Arbour didn't allow his forwards to sacrifice defense for offense, while Selanne was one of the few forwards in the dead puck era (along with Kariya, Jagr, Bure) who was allowed to think all-offense?

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02-24-2013, 09:39 PM
  #224
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When talking about Forsberg and Selanne and which ranks higher on all time forwards list's I personally think Selanne is higher...To many people overrate players on all time list's when they have had shortened careers…Part of being an all-time great in any sport is longevity as well as peak dominance…Selanne was a dominant player and his ability to put up points as long as he has should be looked at as a great accomplishment.

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02-24-2013, 09:46 PM
  #225
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Yeah, it's always an interesting thought experiment to have the players trade places. If Selanne was on Trottier's wing and Bossy was playing for the sad sack expansion Ducks, would Bossy still be viewed as clearly the better player? I highly doubt it.
Well we will never know the answer to that question...Bossy's goal scoring ability stands on it's own...Just about every great goal scorer has had a top flight center playing along side them so Bossy is no different...The fact is Bossy is one of the best goal scorers of all-time...And was Selanne not playing right along with Kariya? So its not as if Selanne has played with garbage.

And just to answer your question I do believe that if you put Selanne on Trottier's wing he would not have accomplished what Bossy did.

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