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Brian Boyle (The "He just plain sucks" Edition)

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Old
02-12-2013, 12:01 PM
  #301
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Am i the only one that doesn't think that every shift boyle is out there, he is pinned in our defensive zone?

I watch nearly every game and attend quite a few as well. I mean he certainly defends quite a bit, but i wouldnt say hes like 95% to 5% like many of you are making it seem.
95-5 no,

70/30? yeah.

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02-12-2013, 12:02 PM
  #302
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Originally Posted by Fire Sather View Post
They were simply good enough to keep the puck in the opponents zone most of the time
Bingo. Keeping the puck in the other team's zone is an alternative to running around your own zone like chickens with their heads cut off and blocking shots. I personally prefer this alternative.

This is still a defensive team. Our coaches teach all of our players to block shots and passes. When we do get into our zone we can still do both things. What's wrong with hoping that we're in the zone a lot less than 90% of the game like we were in the playoffs last year?

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02-12-2013, 12:02 PM
  #303
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
He played 71 games that year. It's also clear to anyone who watches him that he is a 4th liner who if used correctly will get 4th line ES minutes and likely not get even 20 points. When you watch Halpern do you see a guy who has deteriorated? I don't. So, by that logic we should throw out Boyle's 35 point season as an anomoly as well because it is fairly apparent we won't see that again.
He's two years removed from that and had a 26 point campaign last season. Halpern hasn't scored over 20 since 2008.

Huge difference. Again, you didn't answer my question, did you honestly follow Halpern that much last season. Do you know that he was certainly playing 4th line duties all game? Are you sure all his 16 points were spread out over the season?

How about the 26 points he had the season before? What were his duties on that Montreal team? Was he strictly 4th line? Did he play the penalty kill or get any power play time? Are you sure he didn't have a hot 2 months like Boyle last year? If so, were those hot two months down the stretch like boyles, or were they at the beginning of the season when the pressure isn't as heavy?

You complain about people not making arguments, but now i'm waiting for yours. You choose to pick certain points to argue, but ignore ones i'm presenting. You can't ignore this one, i'd like some answers. Because you continuously whine about boyle only producing for a certain period of time and i haven't followed halpern his entire career, so i can't say that his points came at clutch times or in separate games.

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02-12-2013, 12:03 PM
  #304
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
95-5 no,

70/30? yeah.
are you including penalty kill? I'm pretty sure you guys are.

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02-12-2013, 12:03 PM
  #305
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Am i the only one that doesn't think that every shift boyle is out there, he is pinned in our defensive zone?

I watch nearly every game and attend quite a few as well. I mean he certainly defends quite a bit, but i wouldnt say hes like 95% to 5% like many of you are making it seem.
No, you're not the only one. The people who support these absolutes just have a way of seeing what they want to see.

'Puck is in defensive zone - theres Boyle again - ugh, he SUCKS and is ALWAYS hemmed up in his own zone'

Its pervasive. You're not going to change the minds of what people think they see on a constant basis.

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02-12-2013, 12:03 PM
  #306
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
95-5 no,

70/30? yeah.
Youre simply pulling numbers out of your ass. Its a fine way to make a point.

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02-12-2013, 12:05 PM
  #307
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I don't know how Halpern scored his points last year. I know he had much less ice time than BB. What bothered me was we could have compared apples to apples (three years to three years) or career ppg to career ppg, but he cherry picked two years against three for effect. And it just so happens by coincidence, the year he left out BB had 6 points in 71 games.
JT Miller has a better ppg than Max Pacioretty over his NHL career. Craziness!

Halpern has already gone through his prime years. Arnott probably has a higher ppg than Boyle too, should the Rangers go get him? What about Langkow?

Players change throughout their careers. Taking Halperns ppg average over a 10+ year career and using Boyles rookie season + 2 years is not a fair argument to make.

Same goes for just throwing out a time period that doesn't suit your argument.

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02-12-2013, 12:06 PM
  #308
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Originally Posted by -31- View Post
OK, in the past 3 seasons, Boyle has 6 more points than Halpern.

Boyle now is a completely different player than 2009-10. I don't find it all that relevant. But if you insist, the math is simple. 0 + 6.

I don't think it's fair to ignore Boyle's best months while embracing his worst. That is often a technique used by people who have their minds made up and have no interest in a balanced discussion.

And I'm sure you know that in his famous 2007-08 season, Halpern scored 43% of his points in 17 game span from February 27 - April 2, right?
I'm not looking to ignore those two months. But I think it has become clear that those two months were atypical for this hockey player and based his number of scoring chances he will not likely get anywhere that production again. He is not a 21 goal a season guy. And we never discuss his assist totals which for the ice time he's been getting are not good.

At the end of the day it is silly to argue about his offensive prowess or lack thereof. His role is defense and I'm ok with him being our 4th line center. I object to him being called a shut down player because he's not on that level and now that our forward roster has improved he (if he gets back in) is slotted properly which has always been my beef.

I like Brian and hope he improves. My argument has always been with Torts and how he uses him.

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02-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #309
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Your hopes and dreams are just that - something that is virtually unattainable. We all wish we could have a team that runs 4 lines that constantly possess the puck deep in the offensive zone. Allow me to drag you back to reality for a moment.

The game is about peaks and valleys - momentum. Torts talks about it all the time. And while I know some folks are ready to take this past week and open a new chapter, the reality is that Torts has depended on Boyle to be a player to defend against the opposition's pushes.

The argument that bringing Boyle out of the lineup will allow this team to become a better puck possession team in the offensive zone is flawed at best.
Explain to me how it's "flawed at best"

better talented forwards on lines 1, 2 and 3

Less time given to the 4th line.

the talent issue alone will generate more offensive puck possession.

How is it flawed exactly?

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02-12-2013, 12:07 PM
  #310
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Originally Posted by NYR Boyler87 View Post
JT Miller has a better ppg than Max Pacioretty. Craziness!
Thanks, that's helpful.

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02-12-2013, 12:09 PM
  #311
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FYI i chose to leave out that campaign because Boyle is a completely different player than he was in his rookie season. As for halpern, i'm pretty sure he's been relatively the same type of player over the past 3 seasons, considering he's pushing 40.

Don't know why that is so hard to get.

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02-12-2013, 12:10 PM
  #312
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Youre simply pulling numbers out of your ass. Its a fine way to make a point.
majority of Boyle's shifts are spent in the defensive zone.

would you prefer I said 51/49?

That's a marginal difference. I don't think the difference is marginal.

16 to Stanley brought up the % question, I answered it.

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02-12-2013, 12:10 PM
  #313
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I'm not looking to ignore those two months. But I think it has become clear that those two months were atypical for this hockey player and based his number of scoring chances he will not likely get anywhere that production again.
So, that much is clear to you, but the issue that Halpern is in the midst of a steep decline isnt? Your entire argument, if you can even call it that, is based on selectivity.

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02-12-2013, 12:14 PM
  #314
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
He's two years removed from that and had a 26 point campaign last season. Halpern hasn't scored over 20 since 2008.

Huge difference. Again, you didn't answer my question, did you honestly follow Halpern that much last season. Do you know that he was certainly playing 4th line duties all game? Are you sure all his 16 points were spread out over the season?

How about the 26 points he had the season before? What were his duties on that Montreal team? Was he strictly 4th line? Did he play the penalty kill or get any power play time? Are you sure he didn't have a hot 2 months like Boyle last year? If so, were those hot two months down the stretch like boyles, or were they at the beginning of the season when the pressure isn't as heavy?

You complain about people not making arguments, but now i'm waiting for yours. You choose to pick certain points to argue, but ignore ones i'm presenting. You can't ignore this one, i'd like some answers. Because you continuously whine about boyle only producing for a certain period of time and i haven't followed halpern his entire career, so i can't say that his points came at clutch times or in separate games.
I don't whine. Halpern was, and is a 4th line player. btw, the two hot months we are all referencing was Nov and Dec in 2010 not last year down the stretch. Last year he had two hot weeks. So, before you question how well I know players from other teams try and get a handle on the team you root for. The fact that I cannot with any assurance speak to the game by game season of Jeff Halpern is why I introduced his career performance. Things tend to even out over time.

If you watch these two guys play today and conclude that Brian Boyle is the better player to help us grab the cup, good for you. Right now the Ranger brass disagrees along with many on this board. Not everything is objective and so stats can create less understanding than more sometimes. For me, Jeff Halpern will dress every game over Brian Boyle and it doesn't matter who we are playing. Let's see how the experts (coaches) handle it.

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02-12-2013, 12:15 PM
  #315
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
Stats would argue that Boyle is in fact, at this point in time, better offensively than Jeff Halpern.

Last 2 seasons, Boyle has 61 points. Last 3 seasons, Halpern has 61 points.

So you're advocating for more offense. I would argue, with facts, that Boyle is better offensively at this point in time, than Halpern (who has yet to score a point in 11 games as a ranger). And i like halpern.
It's not about the offense. I'd take a 4th line that scores less but spends their time in the other team's zone. For the 3rd line you absolutely need offense, that's why the people arguing all season what a great 3rd line C Boyle is are hilarious.

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02-12-2013, 12:17 PM
  #316
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Originally Posted by pld459666 View Post
95-5 no,

70/30? yeah.
The past two years his offensive zone finishes have been near 43.9%, 46.8% and 47.7% despite starting only 28.8%, 40.3% and 39.1% of his shifts in the offensive zone. If he's getting pinned in the defensive zone for 70% of his shifts he sure is finishing those shifts strong.

Quote:
I'm not looking to ignore those two months. But I think it has become clear that those two months were atypical for this hockey player and based his number of scoring chances he will not likely get anywhere that production again. He is not a 21 goal a season guy. And we never discuss his assist totals which for the ice time he's been getting are not good.

At the end of the day it is silly to argue about his offensive prowess or lack thereof. His role is defense and I'm ok with him being our 4th line center. I object to him being called a shut down player because he's not on that level and now that our forward roster has improved he (if he gets back in) is slotted properly which has always been my beef.

I like Brian and hope he improves. My argument has always been with Torts and how he uses him.
Do view Halpern's miracle 2007-08 season differently now that you know he scored so many of his points in a short span? Do you think you maybe have a different standard of evaluating Halpern than Boyle?

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02-12-2013, 12:23 PM
  #317
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I don't whine. Halpern was, and is a 4th line player. btw, the two hot months we are all referencing was Nov and Dec in 2010 not last year down the stretch. Last year he had two hot weeks. So, before you question how well I know players from other teams try and get a handle on the team you root for. The fact that I cannot with any assurance speak to the game by game season of Jeff Halpern is why I introduced his career performance. Things tend to even out over time.

If you watch these two guys play today and conclude that Brian Boyle is the better player to help us grab the cup, good for you. Right now the Ranger brass disagrees along with many on this board. Not everything is objective and so stats can create less understanding than more sometimes. For me, Jeff Halpern will dress every game over Brian Boyle and it doesn't matter who we are playing. Let's see how the experts (coaches) handle it.
I thought you were talking about two months last season (including his ride into the playoffs, where he was arguably our best player in the sens series).

I'd wager if we make the playoffs, Boyle will be suited up for every game we play, barring injury of course.

And Just to break down his stats from that "2 hot month 21 goal season."

October: 4 Goals
November: 6 Goals
December: 4 Goals
January: 4 Goals
February: 2 Goals
March: 1 Goal

So If you're arguing hot months by the goals scored, it's probably 4 hot months

Guess I should really learn my team better. You'd think he scored all 21 goals in October and November the way you're talking.

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02-12-2013, 12:23 PM
  #318
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Originally Posted by Bardof425 View Post
I don't whine. Halpern was, and is a 4th line player. btw, the two hot months we are all referencing was Nov and Dec in 2010 not last year down the stretch.
For comparison purposes, Boyle scored 51% of his points in 28 games in November and
December 2010.

As I said, in 2007-08 Halpern scored 43% of his points in an 18 game stretch.

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02-12-2013, 12:24 PM
  #319
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
Your hopes and dreams are just that - something that is virtually unattainable. We all wish we could have a team that runs 4 lines that constantly possess the puck deep in the offensive zone. Allow me to drag you back to reality for a moment.

The game is about peaks and valleys - momentum. Torts talks about it all the time. And while I know some folks are ready to take this past week and open a new chapter, the reality is that Torts has depended on Boyle to be a player to defend against the opposition's pushes.

The argument that bringing Boyle out of the lineup will allow this team to become a better puck possession team in the offensive zone is flawed at best.
No team in NHL history spent 100% of the game in the offensive zone every game. I'm not asking for that. I just want to make sure that as long as the Rangers have top end talent and should be contending I don't want to see the garbage I saw in the playoffs last year. The Rangers frankly looked like a great shot blocking and goaltending team and a below average team every other aspect of hockey. It was frustrating and boring to watch. The Rangers went the furthest they've been in my years of watching as a fan and I couldn't enjoy it because they were killing hockey. I'm sorry I don't buy that the end justifies the means. I want an exciting product. Hockey is entertaining after all.

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02-12-2013, 12:29 PM
  #320
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Originally Posted by SnowblindNYR View Post
No team in NHL history spent 100% of the game in the offensive zone every game. I'm not asking for that. I just want to make sure that as long as the Rangers have top end talent and should be contending I don't want to see the garbage I saw in the playoffs last year. The Rangers frankly looked like a great shot blocking and goaltending team and a below average team every other aspect of hockey. It was frustrating and boring to watch. The Rangers went the furthest they've been in my years of watching as a fan and I couldn't enjoy it because they were killing hockey. I'm sorry I don't buy that the end justifies the means. I want an exciting product. Hockey is entertaining after all.
How is this stuff Brian Boyle's fault?

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02-12-2013, 12:30 PM
  #321
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Originally Posted by 16 To Stanley View Post
FYI i chose to leave out that campaign because Boyle is a completely different player than he was in his rookie season. As for halpern, i'm pretty sure he's been relatively the same type of player over the past 3 seasons, considering he's pushing 40.

Don't know why that is so hard to get.
Completely different players? With his one point he is on pace for 7 points over an 82 game season. Seems pretty similar to me. Halpern is 36; not exactly pushing 40.

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02-12-2013, 12:32 PM
  #322
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Completely different players? With his one point he is on pace for 7 points over an 82 game season. Seems pretty similar to me. Halpern is 36; not exactly pushing 40.
Halpern is on pace for 0. Maybe we should hold off on extrapolating?

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02-12-2013, 12:33 PM
  #323
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No team in NHL history spent 100% of the game in the offensive zone every game. I'm not asking for that. I just want to make sure that as long as the Rangers have top end talent and should be contending I don't want to see the garbage I saw in the playoffs last year. The Rangers frankly looked like a great shot blocking and goaltending team and a below average team every other aspect of hockey. It was frustrating and boring to watch. The Rangers went the furthest they've been in my years of watching as a fan and I couldn't enjoy it because they were killing hockey. I'm sorry I don't buy that the end justifies the means. I want an exciting product. Hockey is entertaining after all.
Wait, so now you're complaining because the way the rangers were winning games wasn't EXCITING enough? I don't give a crap if they were playing 99.9% of the games in there defensive zone. If that gets us a cup i'll take it.

Also, that garbage you saw, got us the furthest we've been since winning the cup.

I don't know about others, but i like winning games. I don't care how we win games, as long as we do.

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02-12-2013, 12:35 PM
  #324
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Originally Posted by Bleed Ranger Blue View Post
How is this stuff Brian Boyle's fault?
Because it was him and players like him that was the reason we were pinned in our zone all game every game. He was our high and might shutdown center. Meanwhile the only thing he could do was block shots.

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02-12-2013, 12:36 PM
  #325
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I thought you were talking about two months last season (including his ride into the playoffs, where he was arguably our best player in the sens series).

I'd wager if we make the playoffs, Boyle will be suited up for every game we play, barring injury of course.

And Just to break down his stats from that "2 hot month 21 goal season."

October: 4 Goals
November: 6 Goals
December: 4 Goals
January: 4 Goals
February: 2 Goals
March: 1 Goal

So If you're arguing hot months by the goals scored, it's probably 4 hot months

Guess I should really learn my team better. You'd think he scored all 21 goals in October and November the way you're talking.
I didn't provide any numbers. But during Nov and Dec of that year he scored half his goals. That's pretty hot considering his production before and since. And what made it so wild is that goalies were having brain farts on a regular basis to allow those goals. I watched the games and remember. I'm going to look up the dates of those 18 goals from Oct - Jan. If I remember correctly he went cold in the first half of January.

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