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Brooks: NHL & NHLPA to meet on realignment

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Old
02-11-2013, 02:16 PM
  #126
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Originally Posted by Buck Aki Berg View Post
The old format was flawed because each division had just five teams (six in the Patrick), and there were too few permutations that the top four teams could pair off into. The rivalries were fierce, but the variety was too sparse. Not only that, but with just five teams per division, you had to suck just a little less than the last place team to qualify - if one team had a string of bad years (think Quebec in the late 80s, and Toronto a few years prior), you instantly had the same four teams qualifying every year.

The current format goes too far in the opposite direction - there are too many permutations that the top eight out of fifteen teams can pair off into. We've been fortunate to see some repeat matchups over the years, but it can't be counted on, and more often than not, teams with no common hitory meeting in the playoffs is the rule, not the exception.

I think that even/eight teams per division is the perfect middle ground - it's a small enough set that you get repeat matchups with sufficient regularity, but still large enough that you have some variety over a number of years of which teams pair off.
As long as they're Divisions and not Conferences, perhaps you have a point. But don't tell me that a 4-Conference structure isn't an extreme in another direction. Don't see the sense in the League jumping from one extreme (if you call it that) to another.

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02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #127
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Originally Posted by Shrimper View Post
Doubt LA could handle a third team. Two is enough. Chicago doesn't need a 2nd team. Any future teams should be in either:

Seattle
Quebec
Kansas
Toronto 2

In my opinion.
How popular is hockey in Kansas?

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02-11-2013, 02:20 PM
  #128
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As long as every team plays every other team in the league at least once per season I am happy.

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02-11-2013, 02:25 PM
  #129
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How popular is hockey in Kansas?

Thinking (hoping) he meant Kansas City not Kansas.

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02-11-2013, 02:25 PM
  #130
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Originally Posted by peter sullivan View Post
being in with cities where the fans cant find us on a map, or where we would never see our opponents play on tv (st. louis, nashville, dallas, columbus), or where hockey s an afterthought would suck...tough to form a real rivalry with any of those cities.....calgary edmonton etc would have an instant rivalry....there were thousands of winnipeggers in the saddledome last season, and the same number of oiler fans in winnipeg.....it was great...that wont happen with american cities.

i also hope they go a more balanced schedule...at least a home and away with every team every year.
Interesting----have you ever gone to a game in an american city?

Go to a game in Carolina and you have 20-30% of the fans if not more are for the visiting NE/MW team.

Same true with LA....as well as other cities.

rivalries come from playing in the same division.

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02-11-2013, 02:29 PM
  #131
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Interesting----have you ever gone to a game in an american city?

Go to a game in Carolina and you have 20-30% of the fans if not more are for the visiting NE/MW team.

Same true with LA....as well as other cities.

rivalries come from playing in the same division.

I have. Many times. The best rivalries come from the playoffs in my experience. Van v Boston? Those two teams still hate each other. Chicago and Phx or Vancouver? Same thing.

Point is, you can't make such sweeping statements.

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02-11-2013, 02:31 PM
  #132
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As long as every team plays every other team in the league at least once per season I am happy.
It makes sense, really. It's nice to have some contact between all teams in the League, but you want to have as many games as possible to have a direct effect in the Standings with the teams you're competing with for positions. Unless there's a 30-32 team League with the Standings ranked 1-30/32, then there has to be some segregation. An 82-game Season may seem like a lot, but once you've played 2 games against every team in the League, now you've 59-62 games used up. Then you've got only 20-23 more games to designate against teams that you're team is directly competing with in the Standings.

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02-11-2013, 02:31 PM
  #133
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I went at it from your angle that it was about the national TV contracts. At this stage, I think it's more about the regional contracts.
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
This 4-Conference idea is a way to satisfy Central Division teams so that they can play PTZ and MTZ teams less. And all Western teams want more access to the East. It's got little or nothing to do with the PTZ and MTZ teams playing the east less.
And that's correct, to a point.

The four-conference alignment satisfies the current Central Division along with Winnipeg, Minnesota and Dallas as all but eight games will be within their time zone or one hour earlier, and for Detroit and Columbus, it would be all but eight within the Eastern or Central Time Zones.

The four-conference alignment satisfies the Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams, as they get everyone in their building once and only 22 of their road games would be in the Eastern or Central Time Zone. Comparatively, those Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams already play 24 or more games in the Eastern or Central Time Zone. It rebuilds the brand formerly known as the Smythe Division.

With those 16 teams on-board for an approved alignment change, I can GUARANTEE that the four-conference (or if the PA has anything to say about it, the four-division) format will be approved.

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02-11-2013, 02:33 PM
  #134
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As long as they're Divisions and not Conferences, perhaps you have a point. But don't tell me that a 4-Conference structure isn't an extreme in another direction. Don't see the sense in the League jumping from one extreme (if you call it that) to another.
the 4 conference set up isnt that extreme.

You will still have the issue of what ET/CT division is joined with the western division and those teams will complain about more travel.

If you want to prevent that and keep the division concept then rotate the divisions in conferences oso every 3 years a division is paired with the west and thuse much more travel for regular season and playoffs.

The other thing with the 4 conference set up is you could set up something similar to a final 4 tournament structure.

If you have 4 8-team conferences where the top 4 or 6 (division winners get a first round bye) make the playoffs...you do the playoffs within the conference until the final 2 teams are left then you set up a bracket where the only way the 2 conference teams will face off would be for the stanley cup.

In the playoffs you set up all 7 game series to be a 2-3-2 or 1-4-2/2-4-1 format which limits the travel.

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02-11-2013, 02:40 PM
  #135
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Originally Posted by Grudy0 View Post
I went at it from your angle that it was about the national TV contracts. At this stage, I think it's more about the regional contracts.And that's correct, to a point.

The four-conference alignment satisfies the current Central Division along with Winnipeg, Minnesota and Dallas as all but eight games will be within their time zone or one hour earlier, and for Detroit and Columbus, it would be all but eight within the Eastern or Central Time Zones.

The four-conference alignment satisfies the Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams, as they get everyone in their building once and only 22 of their road games would be in the Eastern or Central Time Zone. Comparatively, those Mountain and Pacific Time Zone teams already play 24 or more games in the Eastern or Central Time Zone. It rebuilds the brand formerly known as the Smythe Division.

With those 16 teams on-board for an approved alignment change, I can GUARANTEE that the four-conference (or if the PA has anything to say about it, the four-division) format will be approved.
The PTZ and MTZ teams are giving up more regular access to CTZ teams and Detroit-Columbus in order to get a bit more access to the rest of the ETZ teams. The problem I see is this: Those current games against CTZ teams and Detroit-Columbus are in part games against rivals, teams competing in the Standings and teams which the PTZ/MTZ could directly play against in the Playoffs. What they get in exchange is the 2nd half of a home-and-home against teams that they won't be competing with directly in the Standings, teams that they won't really have any chance to develop a rivalry with, and thus teams/games that, in addition to that Time Zone difference, a lot of fans will say... hmmm, I guess that game isn't so important (and the same goes for those ETZ fans watching games which are televised late against PTZ and MTZ teams.) Essentially, taking the current Detroit-Columbus situation, expounding it, and at the same time making those games less meaningful.

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02-11-2013, 02:41 PM
  #136
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Originally Posted by MoreOrr View Post
It makes sense, really. It's nice to have some contact between all teams in the League, but you want to have as many games as possible to have a direct effect in the Standings with the teams you're competing with for positions. Unless there's a 30-32 team League with the Standings ranked 1-30/32, then there has to be some segregation. An 82-game Season may seem like a lot, but once you've played 2 games against every team in the League, now you've 59-62 games used up. Then you've got only 20-23 more games to designate against teams that you're team is directly competing with in the Standings.
If the idea is to boost attendance by creating rivalries that 1.Arent league wide-every team in the league doesnt have a rivalry. 2. Dont last forever.

I think greater boosts to attendance come when sidney crosby and the penguins go to the honda center to play the ducks for example.

All i ask for is one game not two against every team in the league with yearly rotations of location.

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02-11-2013, 02:44 PM
  #137
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It's impossible to give the teams individually what they want.

Would you consider my question about producing the best product, competitively, possible? Making all the regular season games count and equalizing as many variables (or coming as close to it) as possible?

Geography has become a crutch for running a bad business model as far as entertainment quality is concerned. It's also something the teams with a huge advantage have glommed on to and they refuse to let go. This is a case where Bettman needs to think outside the box and tell the governors how it's going to be done. Pull a Pete Rozelle on them.
This isn`t about giving teams what they want, it`s about creating stability within the league, by given each team the best options.

However Vancouver causes havoc for a number of teams, it forces dallas to be playing most of its games 2 hours out of time zone. The same with minesota.

On top of that it`ll tank winnipegs future financially, as it`ll be trapped in isolation.
With a relatively small fanbase this matters.

If winnipeg folds thing do not improve for vancouver but only get worst.

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02-11-2013, 02:46 PM
  #138
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the 4 conference set up isnt that extreme.
It's cutting 4 groups of 8 teams off from the rest of the League and making their little 8-team Standings all that really counts. Now of course, those games against other teams in the League give Points to be had, but the individual matchups in themselves have less significance and no real opportunity for rivalry or intensity to develop. By the time things might start getting intense, the 2-game home-and-home for the Season is done.

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02-11-2013, 02:47 PM
  #139
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I have mentioned this before on other threads.....

If you keep the current 6 division 30 team format a different option to balance out the playing field would be to go with an East-Central-WEst divisions in each conference. This would put to rest any issue of more travel.

If you look ahead and plan on a 32 team 8 division format you can take the same approach about west-east divison in each conference....

I have mention this previous:

W: Vancouver, Calgary, Edmonton, Seattle(from PHX), LA, Anaheim, San Jose, Colorado
MW: Winnipeg, Minnesota, Chicago, Detroit, Toronto, Buffalo, Pittsburgh, and Columbus
SE: St Louis, Dallas, Nashville, florida, Tampa Bay, Carolina, Washington, (Houston)
NE: Ottawa, Montreal, Boston, Rangers, Devils, Islanders, Philadelphia, (Quebec City)

The teams have natural pairs:


Minnesota-winnipeg
Chicago-Detroit
toronto-Buffalo
Columbus-Pittsburgh

Calgary-Edmonton
Vancouver-Seattle
LA-Anaheim
SJ-Colorado

Dallas-Houston
ST Louis-Nashville
Florida-Tampa Bay
Washington-Carolina

Ottawa-Quebec City/Markum
Montreal-Boston
Rangers-Islanders
Phildelphia-New Jersey

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02-11-2013, 02:54 PM
  #140
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Originally Posted by HugoSimon View Post
This isn`t about giving teams what they want, it`s about creating stability within the league, by given each team the best options.

However Vancouver causes havoc for a number of teams, it forces dallas to be playing most of its games 2 hours out of time zone. The same with minesota.

On top of that it`ll tank winnipegs future financially, as it`ll be trapped in isolation.
With a relatively small fanbase this matters.

If winnipeg folds thing do not improve for vancouver but only get worst.
I'm not sure if you understand my position.

I am not in favor of status quo, and I hated the NHL's proposed alignment the last go-around. The two SE teams in an NE division was an abomination. There are more than just Canadians (east of Thunder Bay) in Florida, so having that alignment for fairly weak teams (financially) was just ludicrous.

There is no solution that doesn't really hurt a handful of teams. Much of it is due to the 'rivalry' BS and intransigence of the Atlantic Div owners. Their rivalries are no more or less important than any other teams, ftr.

Also why I think that travel costs should be a shared proposition, within very strict general guidelines. If you want 30 teams, and you want a national geography, help pay for it.

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02-11-2013, 02:55 PM
  #141
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what about an NFL type setup:

Conference A

East (i.e. the MSG Network Division)
NYI
NYR
NJ
Buffalo

Mid-Atlantic
Pittsburgh
Columbus
Washington
Philadelphia

Central
Detroit
St. Louis
Chicago
Toronto

West
Anaheim
Los Angeles
San Jose
Phoenix

Conference B

East
Boston
Quebec (exp)
Montreal
Ottawa

South
Carolina
Nashville
Florida
Tampa Bay

Central
Dallas
Colorado
Winnipeg
Minnesota

West
Vancouver
Calgary
Edmonton
Seattle (exp)

You get a nice split of West vs. East in each conference.

Each team plays every other team in it's division 6 times (18), the other 12 conference teams 4 times (48), and then each team in the other conference once (16). There's your 82 game regular season.

Top 2 in each division make the playoffs, play one another in the 1st round, and then remaining 4 are re-seeded by record after that.

This way you always get the "rivalry" factor of the 80's in Round 1, and then the "diversity" factor of the current system the rest of the way.

I'm sure most will hate this, but interested in hearing your thoughts?

potential issues, I see are Nashville whining about being in a division with all ETZ teams, and the Leafs being the only Canadian team in their conference, although they would regain the Wings and Hawks as a division rival.


Last edited by IceAce: 02-11-2013 at 03:03 PM.
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02-11-2013, 02:58 PM
  #142
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I can't see Buffalo being too happy with that. And I'm not sure if anyone will want Philadelphia split up from NYR, NYI, and NJD.

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02-11-2013, 02:58 PM
  #143
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rivalries come from playing in the same division.
The best rivalries come from playoffs + fan bases that actually mix IRL.

 
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02-11-2013, 03:00 PM
  #144
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When are they meeting?

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02-11-2013, 03:05 PM
  #145
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The teams have natural pairs (assuming PHX stays):


Minnesota-winnipeg
Chicago-Detroit

toronto-Buffalo
Columbus-Pittsburgh

Calgary-Edmonton
Vancouver-Seattle

LA-Anaheim
SJ-Phoenix

Dallas-Colorado
ST Louis-Nashville

Florida-Tampa Bay
Washington-Carolina

Ottawa-Quebec City/Markum
Montreal-Boston

Rangers-Islanders
Phildelphia-New Jersey


two pairs make up a 4 team division.

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02-11-2013, 03:06 PM
  #146
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I can't see Buffalo being too happy with that. And I'm not sure if anyone will want Philadelphia split up from NYR, NYI, and NJD.
I dont know, think Buffalo might be ecstatic to have a 3 way NY rivalry considering how pumped their fans get to play the Jets in football.

As for Philly, they stay in the same conference which would mean only one less home game against those team, but they retain Pittsburgh, and now get D.C., with whom their rivals in all other sports.

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02-11-2013, 03:09 PM
  #147
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The best rivalries come from playoffs + fan bases that actually mix IRL.
i disagree.....

for an example look at the NFL. The divison rivalries are intense games but the teams rarely see each other in the playoffs.

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02-11-2013, 03:12 PM
  #148
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Going with 8 divisions lends itself to criticism when there is a case like in 1993, when the Habs, Nordiques, Sabres or Bruins all had 100 point seasons prior to OTLs and one got eliminated in round 1. You wouldn't want to see a 100 point team miss the playoffs when an 88 point team makes it in another.

As I have said before, outside of Seattle because there is a group that is trying to buy the Sacramento Kings, there's not another Western city in the mix for an NHL team. Talk all you want about KC, but is that really a reasonable option given that the Blues seem to be borderline break even or lose money?

NHL would like to have a presence in Arizona, but it's the location that is messed up right now. But, they only have themselves to blame. There was about a $100 million difference that the Phoenix ownership group would have to pick up, but opted for the Glendale sweatheart deal instead.

I mean, if Markham/Quebec are your future expansion cities, then you are going to be left with the following for a 32 team league.

Van/Sea/LA/SJ/Ana/Edm/Cal/Col - 5 PST and 3 MST teams
Dal/StL/Win/Min/Chi/Nas/Det/Cbs - 6 CST and 2 EST teams
Tor/Mark/Ott/Mon/Que/Buf/Bos/Pitt - 8 EST teams
NY/NJ/Brk/Phi/Car/Was/TB/FLA - 8 EST teams

Probably want to keep Pitt and Phi together, but that means either Washington/Carolina move into the NE

If you played the other 24 non division teams 2 times, that brings you to 48 games.
82 game sched, leaves 34 left for 7 teams. Almost 5 per team. 6 teams you play 5 times, 1 team you play 4 times.

That way for Det/Cbs, no extra disadvantage for them playing against Central teams, as it's only 1 hour time difference. No extra PST games for them than the other EST teams.

But in the meantime, to satisfy a 30 team NHL:

VAN/EDM/CAL/SJ/LA/ANA/PHX
COL/DAL/STL/WIN/MIN/CHI/NAS
DET/CBS/TOR/OTT/MON/BUF/BOS/PITT
PHI/NY/NJ/BRK/WAS/CAR/TB/FLA

East gets 16 teams, West gets 14. 1 extra team to compete against, but you have a much lighter travel schedule. Makes sense.

West - 23 teams play 2 times gets you to 46 games. Leaving 36 left against 6 teams, so 6 games each within division.
East - 22 teams play 2 times gets you to 44 games. Leaves 38 games against 7 teams. Leaves you with 3 teams you play 6 times and 4 teams you play 5 times.

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02-11-2013, 03:13 PM
  #149
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I dont know, think Buffalo might be ecstatic to have a 3 way NY rivalry considering how pumped their fans get to play the Jets in football.

As for Philly, they stay in the same conference which would mean only one less home game against those team, but they retain Pittsburgh, and now get D.C., with whom their rivals in all other sports.
Coming from Buffalo----no.

Toronto and Boston are the biggest rivals for in division games. Detroit and Pittsburgh are the biggest outside of divsion.

Jets and Buffalo do not have the intense rivalry compared to the Dolphins(South vs North) and Patriots (Boston).

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02-11-2013, 03:17 PM
  #150
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i disagree.....

for an example look at the NFL.
Too few games, completely different playoff structure, disagree it's a useful parallel.

Calgary/Edmonton/Vancouver work because (a) there is playoff history and (b) fans run into each other all the time, in each city. It becomes a 365/24/7 part of the social fabric. That simply cannot be replaced with LA or Anaheim.

Just like Red Sox-Yankees.

Bottom line, I'm not willing to give up what we have unless, as a start, I get to see every team in the league, in my building, every season.

 
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