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Old
02-16-2013, 03:13 PM
  #151
Scurr
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
What are you even talking about? The concern with leg pads was largely with repetitive motion knee and hip damage from the proposed pad configuration making guys' knees drop lower in a butterfly.
Yet there are guys that choose to wear smaller pads and do so without knee and hip damage. It's in the article

This same thing happens in other sports when they try to make it more exciting. Defensive players complain about an unfair advantage in football, grapplers complain about getting stood up in fighting and goalies don't want to get scored on more. They'll get over it.


Last edited by Scurr: 02-16-2013 at 03:24 PM.
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Old
02-16-2013, 03:24 PM
  #152
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Yet there are guys that choose to wear smaller pads and do so without knee and hip damage. It's in the article
So if that's the case, then the pad sizing issue should be a moot point. If guys are willingly choosing to use smaller pads, then larger pads must not be a competitive advantage.

Alternately, we could look at reality and take that to signify that - and yes, I know that this is shocking - different guys play different styles, and that equipment is different for those styles.

Also, the NHLPA grievance was filed about a totally different aspect of pad sizing than the subject of the article, and than they're talking about with those examples. I'd be shocked if there's a single goalie in the league that isn't using max width pads. That width is narrower than it has been since they changed it in 1989.

This might also be a mind-blower for you, but there are multiple dimensions that make up the size of a goalie pad. Objects like goalie pads take up a volume of space. That volume is determined through measurements of length, width, and depth. Those are all different dimensions. Someone should have taught you this at some point.

Goaltenders in ice hockey wear multiple different pieces of equipment to cover their bodies. A leg pad is not interchangeable with a pair of pants, and neither are the same thing as a chest protector. The more you know.

Anyway, let me know when you decide to outline the specific changes made to goalie equipment coming out of the last lockout and point out the parts that you believe to be marginal.

The funny part in all of this is that I agree that they need to continue to look at goalie equipment, as they have been for the last ten years. I just think that your approach to it is completely wrongheaded.


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02-16-2013, 03:31 PM
  #153
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
This might also be a mind-blower for you, but there are multiple dimensions that make up the size of a goalie pad. Objects like goalie pads take up a volume of space. That volume is determined through measurements of length, width, and depth. Those are all different dimensions. Someone should have taught you this at some point.

Goaltenders in ice hockey wear multiple different pieces of equipment to cover their bodies. A leg pad is not interchangeable with a pair of pants, and neither are the same thing as a chest protector. The more you know.
I've grown tired of being called "delusional" and being talked to in such a condescending way. This thread has been a complete waste of time, sorry for bringing it up.

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02-16-2013, 03:33 PM
  #154
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I've grown tired of being called "delusional" and being talked to in such a condescending way. This thread has been a complete waste of time, sorry for bringing it up.
Yes, it's really surprising that continuously replying to well thought-out posts by actual goalies that actually know about the equipment with obnoxious claims that goalies saying that their equipment helps prevent injuries are sissies that are "afraid of bruises" over and over didn't go well.

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02-16-2013, 03:36 PM
  #155
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
So if that's the case, then the pad sizing issue should be a moot point. If guys are willingly choosing to use smaller pads, then larger pads must not be a competitive advantage.

Alternately, we could look at reality and take that to signify that - and yes, I know that this is shocking - different guys play different styles, and that equipment is different for those styles.

Also, the NHLPA grievance was filed about a totally different aspect of pad sizing than the subject of the article, and than they're talking about with those examples. I'd be shocked if there's a single goalie in the league that isn't using max width pads. That width is narrower than it has been since they changed it in 1989.

This might also be a mind-blower for you, but there are multiple dimensions that make up the size of a goalie pad. Objects like goalie pads take up a volume of space. That volume is determined through measurements of length, width, and depth. Those are all different dimensions. Someone should have taught you this at some point.

Goaltenders in ice hockey wear multiple different pieces of equipment to cover their bodies. A leg pad is not interchangeable with a pair of pants, and neither are the same thing as a chest protector. The more you know.

Anyway, let me know when you decide to outline the specific changes made to goalie equipment coming out of the last lockout and point out the parts that you believe to be marginal.
This is a good post that has taught me something I did not know. Can you please explain what you mean by the bolded part a bit more. And is there a web site that my explain the rules around pad dimensions?

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02-16-2013, 03:47 PM
  #156
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
Yes, it's really surprising that continuously replying to well thought-out posts by actual goalies that actually know about the equipment with obnoxious claims that goalies saying that their equipment helps prevent injuries are sissies that are "afraid of bruises" over and over didn't go well.
I took issue with bruises being called a "major concern to safety". Do you disagree with that?

I also took issue with someone saying a kid shouldn't have to put up with bruises all over their body to play goal. IMO physical sacrifice and dealing with that adversity is one of the great life lessons you get out of hockey. Do you disagree with that? Is it wrong to allow goalies to get bruises? What makes them different from every other guy on the ice?

The topic is a mess because goalies took it personally. There are guys abusing the current rules regarding pad size, it would be really naive to think they wouldn't be. If you're a goalie and you're not doing that then obviously I'm not talking about you.





I don't know how you can look at that and say it's reasonable.

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02-16-2013, 04:11 PM
  #157
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I took issue with bruises being called a "major concern to safety". Do you disagree with that?

I also took issue with someone saying a kid shouldn't have to put up with bruises all over their body to play goal. IMO physical sacrifice and dealing with that adversity is one of the great life lessons you get out of hockey. Do you disagree with that? Is it wrong to allow goalies to get bruises? What makes them different from every other guy on the ice?

The topic is a mess because goalies took it personally. There are guys abusing the current rules regarding pad size, it would be really naive to think they wouldn't be. If you're a goalie and you're not doing that then obviously I'm not talking about you.





I don't know how you can look at that and say it's reasonable.
I suggest you look through this thread.

This is what we goalies deal with on a regular basis despite wearing modern day equipment. And this is beer league goalie wearing top of the line gear... imagine NHL goalies facing pro shooter wearing the same gear?
http://www.goaliestore.com/board/hoc...r-bruises.html

With those pictures, I am not sure how you can argue we should be further reducing the size of our chest protectors and pants.




Its not like goalie gear hasn't been constantly shrunk.

It happened in 03-04 when they limited the length to 38 inches

It happened in 05-06 when pads width were shrunk, the glove was shrunk, the blocker was shrunk, the pants was shrunk, the chest protector was shrunk, heck even the jersey was shrunk

It happened again in 08-09 when they added that goalie gear are measured specifically to the goalie's size and made it so that each goalie had a personal maximum measurement as opposed one overall size limit

Its been shrunk 3 separate times with no positive results. The goal totals keep lowering despite all these goalie gear reductions, that's because goalie gear plays such a minuscule role in the overall product of the game! Clearly shrinking it DOES NOT WORK! Isn't it time for other solutions to improve the game?

Einstein once said insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.


Last edited by Hank4Hart: 02-16-2013 at 04:19 PM.
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Old
02-16-2013, 06:37 PM
  #158
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by Hank4Hart View Post
Its not like goalie gear hasn't been constantly shrunk..
If that's what we're left with after the gear has been "shrunk" then they obviously still have work to do.

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02-16-2013, 06:40 PM
  #159
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I think they should ban normal sized humans from playing in net and only allow midgets...now THAT would increase scoring.

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02-16-2013, 06:44 PM
  #160
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I think they should ban normal sized humans from playing in net and only allow midgets...now THAT would increase scoring.
If they can make Ryan Miller that big I'm sure they can figure out something for a midget.

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02-16-2013, 06:49 PM
  #161
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
If they can make Ryan Miller that big I'm sure they can figure out something for a midget.
I don't find Miller's size in gear to be an issue, but that's just me.

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02-16-2013, 06:55 PM
  #162
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I don't find Miller's size in gear to be an issue, but that's just me.
If that's the amount of gear a 170lbs man needs to protect himself then there are goalies in the NHL trying to commit suicide.

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02-16-2013, 07:04 PM
  #163
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If that's the amount of gear a 170lbs man needs to protect himself then there are goalies in the NHL trying to commit suicide.
Really? Like who?

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02-16-2013, 07:14 PM
  #164
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Really? Like who?
Brodeur is listed at 220lbs and looks way smaller in the upper body. Athletic ability should have something to do with it. If you're big and quick you should have an advantage over someone that is small and quick, it shouldn't be evened out with padding imo.

I'm tapping out. Goalie size doesn't effect goal scoring and nobody is wearing gear for size, it's all for protection anyway. Good talk.


Last edited by Scurr: 02-16-2013 at 07:20 PM.
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Old
02-16-2013, 07:20 PM
  #165
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Goalies aren't allowed to be over 6'0 anymore. Done.

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02-16-2013, 07:29 PM
  #166
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Brodeur is listed at 220lbs and looks way smaller in the upper body.

I'm tapping out. Goalie size doesn't effect goal scoring and nobody is wearing gear for size, it's all for protection anyway. Good talk.
Who said it doesn't affect scoring? I just don't think reducing the size will create any significant increase in scoring. Obviously when you wear big pillows on your legs, a waffle board on one hand and a big mitt on the other, you are doing more than just protecting yourself...but when you step in front of countless 90-100 MPH pucks you want your gear to protect you.

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02-16-2013, 07:41 PM
  #167
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Who said it doesn't affect scoring?
Hank4hart has said it on almost every page in this thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I just don't think reducing the size will create any significant increase in scoring. Obviously when you wear big pillows on your legs, a waffle board on one hand and a big mitt on the other, you are doing more than just protecting yourself...but when you step in front of countless 90-100 MPH pucks you want your gear to protect you.
I understand the need for protection, as I've said. IMO it's pretty obvious that some guys are abusing the current rules and there are small tweaks to padding size and shape that can be made to take some of the advantage gained through gear away. Slow erosion is what I'm calling for, starting with rise.

There are guys already wearing smaller pads/chest protector/pants so I really have to question how much safety would be affected should we make them all wear the smaller versions. By taking the gear away slowly I think you mitigate the risk of taking away protection and give the goalies lots of time to adjust.

The goalies in this thread will not allow for it. There just isn't anything that can be done, and it wouldn't matter anyway because goals are not affected by pad size.

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02-16-2013, 10:09 PM
  #168
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
Brodeur is listed at 220lbs and looks way smaller in the upper body. Athletic ability should have something to do with it. If you're big and quick you should have an advantage over someone that is small and quick, it shouldn't be evened out with padding imo.

I'm tapping out. Goalie size doesn't effect goal scoring and nobody is wearing gear for size, it's all for protection anyway. Good talk.
Brodeur, at least last season, uses Pekka Rinne's chest pads. Just because something "looks" like it's the case doesn't mean it's the case.

http://ingoalmag.com/news/ingoal-rou...oulder-injury/

Nobody has a problem talking about this subject. The problem is that you're just making statements and then acting like they're certainly reality when anyone questions them. It's obnoxious, and it drags down the entire level of conversation on here. It's a shame, because from other posting you clearly know the game, and it would have been nice if we could have actually had a real thread discussing this stuff instead of a series of arbitrary assertions about "how things are."

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02-16-2013, 10:15 PM
  #169
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I don't find Miller's size in gear to be an issue, but that's just me.
Yeah, I don't really get it. If you look at the picture, basically all the spots where his CA is really big are at joints. His elbows and his shoulders. Those are bulky because it's difficult to protect a moving joint without piling extra layers on to "float" over top of it. It's not like he's Garth Snow with the shoulders coming up to his hairline.

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02-16-2013, 10:32 PM
  #170
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Canucker View Post
I think they should ban normal sized humans from playing in net and only allow midgets...now THAT would increase scoring.
What an ignorant comment.

The only real solution is to ban all goalie equipment and put only Sumo wrestlers in the net.

Then, and only then, will the true cream rise to the top.

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02-16-2013, 11:16 PM
  #171
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Originally Posted by MW View Post
Brodeur, at least last season, uses Pekka Rinne's chest pads. Just because something "looks" like it's the case doesn't mean it's the case.

http://ingoalmag.com/news/ingoal-rou...oulder-injury/

Nobody has a problem talking about this subject. The problem is that you're just making statements and then acting like they're certainly reality when anyone questions them. It's obnoxious, and it drags down the entire level of conversation on here. It's a shame, because from other posting you clearly know the game, and it would have been nice if we could have actually had a real thread discussing this stuff instead of a series of arbitrary assertions about "how things are."
Just because Brodeur used the same chest protector as Rinne doesn't mean it's bigger than Miller's. I was going to use Rinne as an example of someone that doesn't have a huge chest protector given how big he is. I'll readily admit that it's not an exact science. I'd love to be able to check out some of their gear.

I can't understand why people are so offended by what I had to say. I wasn't trying to argue a "certain reality", I thought I was arguing against a "certain reality" where no goalie gear can possibly be reduced. I've agreed that goalie safety should be at the forefront. I understand that not everyone is wearing oversized everything. Nobody arguing the other side of it would allow that any piece could be reduced or that it would make any difference at all.

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02-16-2013, 11:20 PM
  #172
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Yeah, I don't really get it. If you look at the picture, basically all the spots where his CA is really big are at joints. His elbows and his shoulders. Those are bulky because it's difficult to protect a moving joint without piling extra layers on to "float" over top of it. It's not like he's Garth Snow with the shoulders coming up to his hairline.
How thick would you say the padding is?

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02-16-2013, 11:46 PM
  #173
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I think there's a big difference between a goaltender protecting himself and equipment that is simply bigger in order to stop the puck.

Make the blockers and catchers smaller, make the pads more narrow, make the shoulder pads less bulky. The goalie will still be protected while decreasing his size in the net substantially.

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02-17-2013, 01:21 AM
  #174
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If that's what we're left with after the gear has been "shrunk" then they obviously still have work to do.
Agreed.

Demanding they 'shrink' the equipment .0132 % isnt going to do a damn thing.

How about for a start get rid of those ridiculous cheating football shoulder pads and 'shrink' the catching glove down to simply a glove like it was intended. The blocker to protect the front of the hand and wrist, like it was intended.

Goalie pads to wrap around the legs, to protect the legs, like it was intended. Not puff out to protect the goal.

The Goalie was never intended to look different than any other player. So that is the point. The end game. Get the goalie equipment to be safe AND still be the same size as the other players.

If you look at the beginning of the game , the goalie starts out looking like the other players . The pads then stop wrapping around like cricket pads and start to flare out . The blockers get bigger, . Then the mask came in and thats fine but then the blockers and pads get even bigger. Then finally the glove starts to resemble a fishing net.

Its so funny that every time they 'limit' something, they just make something else bigger. Now since they just go down and 'fan out' into the butterfly, make the torso as HUGE as possible. Make ridiculous shoulder pads to pile on the inches of net it takes up.

Anyone who claims the the current goalie equipment is mainly to protect the goalie is willfully lying. Its just disingenuous . If we want every goalie to have a GAA of .098 and save percentage of .970 then the future looks bright for you.

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02-17-2013, 01:40 AM
  #175
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Originally Posted by Scurr View Post
I can't understand why people are so offended by what I had to say. I wasn't trying to argue a "certain reality", I thought I was arguing against a "certain reality" where no goalie gear can possibly be reduced. I've agreed that goalie safety should be at the forefront. I understand that not everyone is wearing oversized everything. Nobody arguing the other side of it would allow that any piece could be reduced or that it would make any difference at all.
Your article actually made for great discussion as far as the limit of the thigh rises. But right off the bat after the first post you referred to goalies as whimps, look back in the first page if you need a refresher. How do you NOT expect us to take offence to what you said?

For every well thought out point that I have tried to bring up and explain with supporting evidence, all I got in return was differently phrased versions of the same responses. Its actually impossible to argue with you because every time I bring up a different idea, you come back with either "bruises are not injuries" (btw, no one said they were), "goalie gear is still too big", or "I know the game and I know protection". This isn't a debate, its just you saying the same thing over and over and over again until you get what you want.

Regarding Miller, if you have to put a standard 1.5 inch (just an arbitrary number) of padding wrapping around each goalies arm and body. Proportionally, its obviously going to look like a bigger increase when you wrap that padding around a thinner goalie than a thick bodied goalie. Its like a less extreme comparison of trying wrap that 1.5 inch of padding around a pencil as opposed to a water bottle, well DUH its going to look like the pencil increased in size by 10x and the bottle is only going to look bigger marginally. Its simple mathematics, really.

Anyway, you and I will clearly never agree. So lets just drop this conversation. It was a good chat


Last edited by Hank4Hart: 02-17-2013 at 01:52 AM.
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