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Penguins - Devils 2/10/12 - NJ Got To Our Game Edition

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Old
02-11-2013, 12:20 AM
  #326
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And once again - I'm not attacking DB here. People are just spouting out all sorts of crap tonight that is not true. The game has so much to it and it isn't easy to discuss x's and o's. And most of the times x's and o's don't matter if players aren't doing what they are supposed to.
I buy this part, they need to do their part or they're out of the play.

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02-11-2013, 12:23 AM
  #327
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
All you need to do is watch 2009's team. They stretched to open space but never really utilized the stretch pass until it was wide open. They came up with speed by chipping/supporting.

Chipping/supporting beats traps. Stretch passes do not. You don't know what you are talking about. I promise you.. I'm not trying to be a jack ass here. You just don't quite fully understand the nuances of what to do against a trap.
Yes, the 2009 team that won the cup by beating The Flyers (not a trapping team) the Caps(Didn't even play defense), Carolina (not a trapping team) and The Wings (play almost the same system as us).

So how does that relate to playing a trapping Devils team?

PS The 09' team was won 3 times against NJ and lost 3 times against NJ. We are 1-2 this year.

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02-11-2013, 12:28 AM
  #328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Yes, the 2009 team that won the cup by beating The Flyers (not a trapping team) the Caps(Didn't even play defense), Carolina (not a trapping team) and The Wings (play almost the same system as us).

So how does that relate to playing a trapping Devils team?

PS The 09' team was won 3 times against NJ and lost 3 times against NJ. We are 1-2 this year.
Now you are just trying to find an argument. I said watch that team to see how they break out. That was with speed while utilizing the stretch of the defense. I've always been a huge advocate of stretching defenses out. Movement creates lanes. It always will. Sending a guy to the far blue line to stand around and re-direct a stretch pass isn't doing much of anything. The Devils loved it. They were all over it. Re-direct in to the zone w/ no speed, break out, dump-in, pounce on any turnovers to create scoring chances. It's how the entire game went.

And maybe you just aren't seeing what the Pens are doing. We have a guy sitting at the far blue line and a guy on the opposite side around the red. They just stand there. Our center dashes through the middle and then we re-direct a stretch pass. We enter the zone with no support and no speed.

If you think that is a correct way to beat a trap, then I have nothing else for you. I guess what I can do is ask you politely to re-watch the game if you think that works. The Devils put on a clinic today defensively. They had great defensive support and made the Pens get lost into a boring turnover game.

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02-11-2013, 12:30 AM
  #329
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And once again - I'm not attacking DB here. People are just spouting out all sorts of crap tonight that is not true. The game has so much to it and it isn't easy to discuss x's and o's. And most of the times x's and o's don't matter if players aren't doing what they are supposed to.
Cole, honest question (and I'd really appreciate your answer on this one): If, say, team A is employing a strategy designed to take away what your team is doing and succeeds, is it because the players aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing or because the players aren't being put into the best possible position to make plays?

I've always thought-- and I'd appreciate being corrected if I'm wrong-- is that what distinguishes a good coach is that everything he does (game planning, adjustments, bench management, motivation, etc) ought to serve the ultimate purpose of having your players, especially your best players, playing to their strengths and away from their weaknesses. The good coach puts players into the best possible position to make plays and from there it's on the players.

With guys like Sid and Geno, when you are asked to do the same thing again and again and again and the other team is ready for it, what do you do? The more you see it not working (or putting you at a competitive advantage), the more, I think, you try to compensate by doing it yourself. But, at some point, especially the playoffs, the limits of the herculean efforts and lack of winger talent show.

Am I off base?

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02-11-2013, 12:31 AM
  #330
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
It's not easy EVER in the NHL because players are too fast/smart. It shouldn't be a fixture in any team's system to do all game long. If you claim to be this big time coach, then you know the best passes are 5-6 feet away. That's something you learn when you are a child and it never changes.
Yes you are absolutely right with short passes and puck support being the best way to break out, because as I said in a previous post, it is much easier to make those passes with consistency. The trap doesn't work at a young age because the kids aren't big enough or fast enough to cover enough space to make it work. The trap was introduced to slow down the neutral zone and jump on those short passes and board chips. So you have to stretch out the D to loosen the trap. Once they loosen a little bit, then you can get the quick passes through the NZ. And since you were there, you know that they didn't loosen up that trap very much.

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02-11-2013, 12:32 AM
  #331
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Hate to break up the stretch pass party (I know that's always the reason we lose ), but I think it's illustrative that when talking about what NJ did to win, both Bylsma and Crosby stressed that the Devils succeeded by getting the puck deep, being strong on the puck, and playing extended shifts in the offensive zone.

The Pens weren't committed enough to move the puck the puck out consistently, and consequently got worn out.

Maybe Bylsma and Crosby just aren't clued into the all-encompassing evils of the stretch pass. Or maybe there were other, more pressing issues tonight.

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02-11-2013, 12:34 AM
  #332
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02-11-2013, 12:36 AM
  #333
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Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Hate to break up the stretch pass party (I know that's always the reason we lose ), but I think it's illustrative that when talking about what NJ did to win, both Bylsma and Crosby stressed that the Devils succeeded by getting the puck deep, being strong on the puck, and playing extended shifts in the offensive zone.

The Pens weren't committed enough to move the puck the puck out consistently, and consequently got worn out.

Maybe Bylsma and Crosby just aren't clued into the all-encompassing evils of the stretch pass. Or maybe there were other, more pressing issues tonight.
This is pretty right on.

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02-11-2013, 12:37 AM
  #334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Hate to break up the stretch pass party (I know that's always the reason we lose ), but I think it's illustrative that when talking about what NJ did to win, both Bylsma and Crosby stressed that the Devils succeeded by getting the puck deep, being strong on the puck, and playing extended shifts in the offensive zone.

The Pens weren't committed enough to move the puck the puck out consistently, and consequently got worn out.

Maybe Bylsma and Crosby just aren't clued into the all-encompassing evils of the stretch pass. Or maybe there were other, more pressing issues tonight.
You must have missed 3-4 of my posts stating this same thing. But we controlled the majority of the game until the Devils found a couple of long shifts in our zone.

For a long time, it felt like the Montreal series where we owned the play, then one rush goes the other way and the good scoring chance gets converted. So yes.. I'll question Sid just a little bit here. We controlled play/tempo til they grabbed the lead.

And I hate when this board does this ****. Just because we are having a discussion on one aspect of the game, does not mean it's the only reason we lose. That type of internet argument gets so old. And you and I have had some great conversations about hockey... so I expect a bit better from ya, RRP.

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02-11-2013, 12:41 AM
  #335
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
For a long time, it felt like the Montreal series where we owned the play, then one rush goes the other way and the good scoring chance gets converted. So yes.. I'll question Sid just a little bit here. We controlled play/tempo til they grabbed the lead.
Convo I had with friend at game tonight:

Me: "This feels like that Montreal series where we dominated the play but lost because of a few rushes."

Friend: "I hate watching the Devils play."

Basically sums up the game.

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02-11-2013, 12:41 AM
  #336
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The thing is, I understand about lack of in game adjustments.

But in this case, the Devil's trapped us. If that was a ****ing surprise to Bylsma and the team was not prepared for the Devils 'OMG, they are ****ing trapping. Who would ever have thought that the Devils might trap?' then Bylsma is more of an issue than I thought. He has seen them do this for decades. How many decades do you need to see it before you change your game plan to deal with it?

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02-11-2013, 12:42 AM
  #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
This is pretty right on.
It sorta confirmed my impression of the game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
You must have missed 3-4 of my posts stating this same thing. But we controlled the majority of the game until the Devils found a couple of long shifts in our zone.

For a long time, it felt like the Montreal series where we owned the play, then one rush goes the other way and the good scoring chance gets converted.

And I hate when this board does this ****. Just because we are having a discussion on one aspect of the game, does not mean it's the only reason we lose. That type of internet argument gets so old. And you and I have had some great conversations about hockey... so I expect a bit better from ya, RRP.
I must've missed that, haha. Lots of garbage to sift through in this post-game.

Speaking of getting old...I just think we harp on the pass-that-shall-not-be-named way too much. It was far from the main determining factor tonight. But by all means, y'all continue.

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02-11-2013, 12:45 AM
  #338
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
The thing is, I understand about lack of in game adjustments.

But in this case, the Devil's trapped us. If that was a ****ing surprise to Bylsma and the team was not prepared for the Devils 'OMG, they are ****ing trapping. Who would ever have thought that the Devils might trap?' then Bylsma is more of an issue than I thought. He has seen them do this for decades. How many decades do you need to see it before you change your game plan to deal with it?
DB must of been reading the NJ forums and saw they have word-association trouble with the term trap. DB came away thinking, Petey runs an aggressive forecheck and therefore there's no way he'll incorporate elements of the trap. or at least that's my take.

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02-11-2013, 12:47 AM
  #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
It sorta confirmed my impression of the game.



I must've missed that, haha. Lots of garbage to sift through in this post-game.

Speaking of getting old...I just think we harp on the pass-that-shall-not-be-named way too much. It was far from the main determining factor tonight. But by all means, y'all continue.
Only reason I jumped into that conversation is because someone was trying to make the argument that a stretch pass is the only way to beat a trap... which is highly laughable. It actually had nothing to even do with this game. The debate was more general trap discussion.

I tweeted it from CEC and I'll say it again - We lost this game for a few reasons:

1) NJ converted on chances, we didn't. I felt like they had 3 chances and that was it. They made it work. We missed a couple great opportunities in the slot and hit the pipe a couple times. Good teams make you pay. NJ made us pay.

2) Moose played out of his mind. There isn't anything else to say. He looked just like Marty.

3) NJ's defensive support was a thing of beauty. They outnumbered us over and over again.


edit: And I wasn't even mad leaving the game. I thought our players played well minus TK and Boychuk. I thought Despres, Bort, and Engo were terrific. I thought Sid/Geno made some plays. I was decently happy with the effort. It was just a game of who could convert. NJ did.

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02-11-2013, 12:53 AM
  #340
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Dude I was at the game. They ran a trap the entire night. The forecheck was after in-zone control was already established. People cannot be this blind, right?

The Devils haven't done it to us a lot recently, but tonight it was full out trap.
People confuse neutral zone play and in zone play a lot. You can actually forecheck hard in zone and once possession by the opposition is established, back off into a trap.

Devils fans can take offense all they like, but it is what it is.

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02-11-2013, 12:55 AM
  #341
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Only reason I jumped into that conversation is because someone was trying to make the argument that a stretch pass is the only way to beat a trap... which is highly laughable. It actually had nothing to even do with this game. The debate was more general trap discussion.

I tweeted it from CEC and I'll say it again - We lost this game for a few reasons:

1) NJ converted on chances, we didn't. I felt like they had 3 chances and that was it. They made it work. We missed a couple great opportunities in the slot and hit the pipe a couple times. Good teams make you pay. NJ made us pay.

2) Moose played out of his mind. There isn't anything else to say. He looked just like Marty.

3) NJ's defensive support was a thing of beauty. They outnumbered us over and over again.


edit: And I wasn't even mad leaving the game. I thought our players played well minus TK and Boychuk. I thought Despres, Bort, and Engo were terrific. I thought Sid/Geno made some plays. I was decently happy with the effort. It was just a game of who could convert. NJ did.
Agreed on all points. I'll just add that as good as NJ was at defending the cycle in their end, that's about as poor as we were in ours. We didn't have their commitment to win pucks and make smart, efficient exits. They just overwhelmed us for stretches.

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02-11-2013, 12:56 AM
  #342
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And side conversation.. I cannot remember a time the Pens came back with am epic emotional comeback. Anyone off the top of their head think of one recently? When we are down.. we lose. When Neal scored, I was trying to remember the last time we made a sweet comeback in a game.

I am guessing 2010 Ottawa? Game 6? 2009 Philly? I don't know.

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02-11-2013, 12:58 AM
  #343
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
Only reason I jumped into that conversation is because someone was trying to make the argument that a stretch pass is the only way to beat a trap... which is highly laughable. It actually had nothing to even do with this game. The debate was more general trap discussion.

I tweeted it from CEC and I'll say it again - We lost this game for a few reasons:

1) NJ converted on chances, we didn't. I felt like they had 3 chances and that was it. They made it work. We missed a couple great opportunities in the slot and hit the pipe a couple times. Good teams make you pay. NJ made us pay.

2) Moose played out of his mind. There isn't anything else to say. He looked just like Marty.

3) NJ's defensive support was a thing of beauty. They outnumbered us over and over again.


edit: And I wasn't even mad leaving the game. I thought our players played well minus TK and Boychuk. I thought Despres, Bort, and Engo were terrific. I thought Sid/Geno made some plays. I was decently happy with the effort. It was just a game of who could convert. NJ did.

I agree with everything that you said here, although while Engo did do a lot of good things today, that was a bad read pinching on that goal. But maybe that's part of the problem/transition when you go to playing with a new partner or on the opposite side.


And definitely, Moose stood on his head in the 1st period, which is why we didn't blow things open early. That being said, even before we were down a goal, we were playing some shifts as if we were coming from behind a goal trying to tie it up (the pinch being an example), and we had plenty of time left before we had to take some of the offensive chances we did. But, as you said, they played a smart, smothering game.


Jeffrey looked great, though, and it would be a crime if he's out of the line-up again. I love what Adams brings, but I fail to see how Joe Victory couldn't do the exact same thing if you put him on the RW on that line and left Jeffrey at centre -- which at least gets Jeffrey into game action/game shape and can be moved up to Malkin's line or centre the 4th as needed. Then, when you double shift Geno or Sid on the 4th line, there's actually a hope in hell that they'll be able to create offense.

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02-11-2013, 12:58 AM
  #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rowdy Roddy Peeper View Post
Hate to break up the stretch pass party (I know that's always the reason we lose ), but I think it's illustrative that when talking about what NJ did to win, both Bylsma and Crosby stressed that the Devils succeeded by getting the puck deep, being strong on the puck, and playing extended shifts in the offensive zone.

The Pens weren't committed enough to move the puck the puck out consistently, and consequently got worn out.

Maybe Bylsma and Crosby just aren't clued into the all-encompassing evils of the stretch pass. Or maybe there were other, more pressing issues tonight.
Stretch passes up the wall are 100% 50/50 pucks, now add in a motivated team playing against that, it now becomes lopsided and those stretch passes work against you. You play back and you transition quickly with puck support.

I'll be damned if I haven't seen that pony before. Everything works great with effort. What effort is there if they're standing still at their blueline at the boards, rather than moving towards the wall, chip it bye and get to work.

The difference from what the Devils were doing was getting to the puck as the defender was getting there or before them. The Pens were not having such luck.

How many icing did they have and get stuck out there? Way too many.

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02-11-2013, 01:00 AM
  #345
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And side conversation.. I cannot remember a time the Pens came back with am epic emotional comeback. Anyone off the top of their head think of one recently? When we are down.. we lose. When Neal scored, I was trying to remember the last time we made a sweet comeback in a game.

I am guessing 2010 Ottawa? Game 6? 2009 Philly? I don't know.
Leafs game last year down 4-1 with about 10 minutes left.
Habs game where they kept getting 2 goal leads and we kept coming back.

Those are two off the top of my head, but I also remember being down 2-0 a few times but then coming back and turning games into blowouts. One with Tampa, one with Winnipeg.

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02-11-2013, 01:00 AM
  #346
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Byslma got tips from billy guerin on how to respond to a shortened season...maybe he should have gotten tips on the trap instead

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02-11-2013, 01:01 AM
  #347
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I can't seem to get upset at games like today for the same reason I was kind of meh about yesterday's game. The more the team struggles to score when Sid or Geno aren't dominating, the more it'll force Shero to add some offensive support up front for them.

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02-11-2013, 01:01 AM
  #348
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And side conversation.. I cannot remember a time the Pens came back with am epic emotional comeback. Anyone off the top of their head think of one recently? When we are down.. we lose. When Neal scored, I was trying to remember the last time we made a sweet comeback in a game.

I am guessing 2010 Ottawa? Game 6? 2009 Philly? I don't know.
Can't remember off the top of my head, haha. Does seem like it's been awhile though.

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02-11-2013, 01:04 AM
  #349
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Jeffrey looked great, though, and it would be a crime if he's out of the line-up again. I love what Adams brings, but I fail to see how Joe Victory couldn't do the exact same thing if you put him on the RW on that line and left Jeffrey at centre -- which at least gets Jeffrey into game action/game shape and can be moved up to Malkin's line or centre the 4th as needed. Then, when you double shift Geno or Sid on the 4th line, there's actually a hope in hell that they'll be able to create offense.
Don't hold your breath. I think Jeffrey got frisky with Mrs. Bylsma or something because he is in the dog house for some reason, despite his solid play every chance he gets. I still wanna see him get a legitimate chance alongside Geno. What he had earlier in the season was not a legitimate chance. There are plenty of PKers on the team, and he could even do it, so there's no reason they can't scratch Adams (well, besides the fact he's Bylsma's Ouellet).

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02-11-2013, 01:05 AM
  #350
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Originally Posted by ColePens View Post
And side conversation.. I cannot remember a time the Pens came back with am epic emotional comeback. Anyone off the top of their head think of one recently? When we are down.. we lose. When Neal scored, I was trying to remember the last time we made a sweet comeback in a game.

I am guessing 2010 Ottawa? Game 6? 2009 Philly? I don't know.
There were a couple last year, like the one against TBL ... blew a lead, Geno went into god-mode, don't remember the exact date ... does that count?

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