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Penguins - Devils 2/10/12 - NJ Got To Our Game Edition

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:39 AM
  #376
Captain Hook
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Originally Posted by Revelation View Post
At what point does it stop being excused as a team "at the wrong time" and start being acknowledged that this team isn't prepared?
They ran into one of the couple hottest teams in hockey without their #1 D-Man in Letang and another top 4 D in Niskanen. People need to calm down.

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02-11-2013, 07:43 AM
  #377
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
They ran into one of the couple hottest teams in hockey without their #1 D-Man in Letang and another top 4 D in Niskanen. People need to calm down.
I don't think the sky is falling, but I think it's far more likely we caught them on a bad day two Saturdays ago than what you're saying. They usually pick us apart under Bylsma.

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02-11-2013, 07:53 AM
  #378
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Originally Posted by Captain Hook View Post
They ran into one of the couple hottest teams in hockey without their #1 D-Man in Letang and another top 4 D in Niskanen. People need to calm down.
It's this mind frame that will lead us to another first round playoff exit. Yay we beat the caps twice and islanders once during the 5 game winning streak. That's great we can inflate our stats in those games so people can say we don't need more goal scorers. We've looked good against the rangers but lets see them play the bruins.

Thankfully we don't have to play western conference teams this season. Can you imagine what some of those powerhouses could do to the pens! It'd be ugly.

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02-11-2013, 08:02 AM
  #379
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Take Notes View Post
Devils fan here,

I was just wondering if some of you really think that the Devils still trap?

As an outsider, I dont think the system of the strech pass will work against top teams, I think that you guys really need a Top 6 Winger to play with Crosby.
For about a year + I have been making the same argument as you. I would even go as far as saying Saturday's game and Sunday's game were two completely different systems for the Devils. Once they got the 1-0 lead, they used their 1-2-2 to push back all the way to the neutral zone.

When you have all your guys lining up in the neutral zone, it's a trap. There is no special x's and o's needed. You are just forcing the clogged neutral zone. I was at yesterday's game and can tell you 10000% I was shocked to see New Jersey do that because they were so successful last season playing a more up-tempo game .

And for people interested... every team traps once in a while. It's a useful tactic when you are up and you want to take away from teams. The Devils were content with a 1 goal lead and were going to wait for Pens to make mistakes. They made 2 more and the game was out of hand. Conversion rate on Pens mistakes last night was 100% for NJ.

People need to understand the game instead of using stupid posts like Devils fans coming in here w/ these ******** comments. We are giving your team credit. Realize that.



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This team struggles without Letang about as much as they struggle when they're without anybody and that includes Crosby. The Devils are also playing unbelievable right now. Just ran into them at the wrong time.
Tanger is definitely a need. His speed and ability to slash through the neutral zone helps.

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02-11-2013, 08:10 AM
  #380
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Originally Posted by domaug View Post
and you refer to everyone as bandwagoners while propping up the Devils.

there was really no point for you to post in here anyway when you open up with "before everyone jumps off the bandwagon".
Calm down dude. His post was fine.

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02-11-2013, 08:20 AM
  #381
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Originally Posted by Pancakes View Post
By the way, for all the ragging we're doing on our wingers...

Malkin has less goals on the season than Dupuis, Kunitz, and Neal and he's tied with Sutter, and Letang. Simon Despres needs only one goal to tie what Malkin has done all season.

Malkin can only blame his linemates so much, he needs to play better. His play has been unacceptable.
He has 16 points. Assists count too you know. He certainly needs to have more goals, but his play has been fine. He was one of the only guys creating anything 5 on 5 last night.

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02-11-2013, 08:33 AM
  #382
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Is it possible that after 4 years as Pens head coach Bylsma still has not learned how to play against a trapping team. Last night's game showed me ZERO evolution or development in his tactics against these types of teams, and it is very concerning. If we play the Devils in the post season it won't be a very long series.

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02-11-2013, 08:34 AM
  #383
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Oh and by the way, I for one hope we don't see Reese in Pens uniform for a long time. I'm sorry, but he just does not look fit for the NHL game.

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02-11-2013, 08:35 AM
  #384
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A few thoughts...

1. A big problem this weekend was getting pinned in our zone - Letang and Niskanen are huge parts of that for us (more so Letang obviously).

2. I get the feeling that NJ really wanted to make a statement this weekend. Comments from their coach and players after our 5-1 win last week showed how much respect they had for us. They knew they had to play hard and smart hockey or they'd likely lose, and I think they wanted to show that they're an elite team also. And they are. Sounds like our team has a new respect for them moving forward.

3. I notice Crosby goes quiet and looks uninterested when his line isn't creating chances. However if they're having a good shift he kicks the burners on and flies around the ice for the next few shifts. I think if we find him his winger, one that can make plays instead of just reacting, we might see another level of Crosby.

4. I worry about this team's compete level and have for a few seasons now. Does anyone else notice that this team looks most interested when they smell blood, or if the other team is off their game? But when we face adversity, I actually see less effort and interest. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's another reason I want to see Iginla here - an uber-cup hungry veteran presence.


Last edited by WVP: 02-11-2013 at 08:53 AM.
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02-11-2013, 08:35 AM
  #385
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Here is all I have to say about the Pens with Bylsma as HC. 2nd highest winning percentage in the NHL over that period of time. Obviously he is doing something right. And don't bring the argument that it's all because of Sid Geno making up for his poor coaching, because that would imply that any of us could do just as good of a job....And I know for sure that isn't the case.

Also, for all of the haters who want him fired. Just take a look at our old friends in Washington. They all wanted Budreau fired because he didn't win in the playoffs a few years, and he got all the blame. He changed his system like everyone wanted him do and become more defensive, and what did it get him? Fired! Not look at the Caps. Fans got what they wanted, Budreau fired, and now the Caps are cellar dwellers, and Budreau has the Ducks relevant again.

Be careful what you wish for!

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02-11-2013, 08:40 AM
  #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Here is all I have to say about the Pens with Bylsma as HC. 2nd highest winning percentage in the NHL over that period of time. Obviously he is doing something right. And don't bring the argument that it's all because of Sid Geno making up for his poor coaching, because that would imply that any of us could do just as good of a job....And I know for sure that isn't the case.

Also, for all of the haters who want him fired. Just take a look at our old friends in Washington. They all wanted Budreau fired because he didn't win in the playoffs a few years, and he got all the blame. He changed his system like everyone wanted him do and become more defensive, and what did it get him? Fired! Not look at the Caps. Fans got what they wanted, Budreau fired, and now the Caps are cellar dwellers, and Budreau has the Ducks relevant again.

Be careful what you wish for!
Very few of us are asking for his head. However many of us are asking that he show considerable flexibility in his tactical approach. As great as he's been for us (proof is in the win/loss record) he's also had the propensity to get terribly outcoached, especially against defensive-minded teams. IN spite of this however he still seems to refuse to shake things up in his tactics and continues to beat the same old formula to death whenever it clearly isn't working.

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Old
02-11-2013, 08:48 AM
  #387
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Originally Posted by AquaticBirdman View Post
Is it possible that after 4 years as Pens head coach Bylsma still has not learned how to play against a trapping team. Last night's game showed me ZERO evolution or development in his tactics against these types of teams, and it is very concerning. If we play the Devils in the post season it won't be a very long series.
It was not the trap that beat the Pens last night. I really wish people would stop looking at NJ and say... Trap trap trap! The trap can only be used on set breakouts.

This game was lost on the boards. DB has his faults, but when your fwds are losing board battles in both zones, a coach can only make so many adjustments.

The Devils had a heavy forecheck all game and the Pens fwds constantly gave up the points and lost battles up the half wall. There were numerous times a Devil blueliner pinched to the HB on a keep and simply out worked a Pens fwd.

If the Pens fwds had done their jobs along the boards, there would of been multiple chances on the counter attack, without having to worry about beating the trap.

The Devils simply out worked the Pens on the boards in an embarrassing fashion and blaming the trap is a cop out for the Pens fwds.

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02-11-2013, 08:51 AM
  #388
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It was not the trap that beat the Pens last night. I really wish people would stop looking at NJ and say... Trap trap trap! The trap can only be used on set breakouts.

This game was lost on the boards. DB has his faults, but when your fwds are losing board battles in both zones, a coach can only make so many adjustments.

The Devils had a heavy forecheck all game and the Pens fwds constantly gave up the points and lost battles up the half wall. There were numerous times a Devil blueliner pinched to the HB on a keep and simply out worked a Pens fwd.

If the Pens fwds had done their jobs along the boards, there would of been multiple chances on the counter attack, without having to worry about beating the trap.

The Devils simply out worked the Pens on the boards in an embarrassing fashion and blaming the trap is a cop out for the Pens fwds.
The Devils clogged the living hell out of the neutral zone throughout most the 3rd period. As soon as we would attempt on of our trademark failure stretch passes to the neutral zone our puck carrier would immediately be pounced on by at least 2 white and red jerseys. Combine that with a failure of a dump-and-chase game because the devils lined up effectively in their own zone, then I'd say that the trap did play a major role in our inability to generate anything offensively in the final 20 minutes.

Lastly, I don't think it's a "cop out" in any way to point out the obvious. This is not the first time we've hit a brick wall against a team that plays this style. THe devils have been a thorn in our side under DB's entire tenure. There's also a reason why Sid's PPG average is lowest against the Devils in comparison with the rest of our division rivals. We also experienced these problems with the Habs in 2010 and the parts of the 1st round against the Bolts in 2011. DB simply has trouble working against these types of defensive tactics.

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02-11-2013, 08:54 AM
  #389
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
The Wings played a hybrid 2-3 LWL, which was a trap. They absolutely killed the Pens with it in '08 and their quick transition and offense from the points was never properly countered on the ice. MT you could see was doing the right thing to counter it, but the players just couldn't stay disciplined. Beating the trap takes everyone being on the same page, shift after shift. Det feasted on the Pens neutral zone turnovers and quickly transitioned the puck on the counter. They also, like the Devils did last night, killed the Pens from the point all series long.

DB beat their trap in '09 by stretching out the f3/reversing the puck to make the weak side defender an option. The trap cuts the ice in half and isolates the puck carrier, to counter it, you have to support your puck carrier and everyone has to do their job. Your weak side defender has to become an outlet, your high fwds have to come with speed and back off the defense, your puck carrier has to be supported.

The Pens used a number of supported breakouts agt. Det, rarely using the stretch pass, and their goal was to gain the red line and dump the puck, then work over the Wings defense. In game 7, you can clearly see this strategy because all they did was breakout to gain the red line and have their fwds hit the blueline with speed to chase the dumps.

This minimized mistakes and forced Detroit to constantly retrieve pucks and they made the most mistakes, that's all it really came down to.

The Pens, like Philly, didn't get killed by the trap, they lost because the Devils forechecked the **** out of them. I've said this several times and broke down what the Devils do on their forecheck a few times in the past. Their double chip breakout helps get the puck deep and then they establish that beastly forecheck.

The Pens blueliners were doing an admirable job handling it last night, but they didn't get the support along the walls from the fwds. The Devils key to their forecheck is their defense and they are masters of keeping the puck in and tying up your fwds along the wall.

I saw several people blame Bort and Despres for making a lot of turnovers, which isn't accurate. They were moving the puck up the wall like they are taught, but they were not getting the support from their fwds. The Pens fwds absolutely got owned all night long in puck battles in their own zone.

That is the biggest reason why they lost. Not because of the trap. Not because DB is an idiot.
This. Very good post.

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02-11-2013, 09:08 AM
  #390
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I think people are way off on what is hurting this team. I think one of the biggest problems is support and speed. We never support the puck anymore. In the offensive zone, we are throwing long passes every time. No simple plays. In the neutral zone we are throwing long passes w/ no speed. Puck support is a huge thing in the NHL. We do not support one another.

I don't know what people watched last night, but outside of a FEW shifts, the Devils were defending most of the night. Whether that was in the defensive zone or neutral zone. The Pens controlled play for the majority until the select few shifts where the Devils top line owned it.

But that's what top lines do. They establish zone time.

Puck support & Aggressive play would be my 2 talking points.

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02-11-2013, 09:13 AM
  #391
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Originally Posted by AquaticBirdman View Post
The Devils clogged the living hell out of the neutral zone throughout most the 3rd period. As soon as we would attempt on of our trademark failure stretch passes to the neutral zone our puck carrier would immediately be pounced on by at least 2 white and red jerseys. Combine that with a failure of a dump-and-chase game because the devils lined up effectively in their own zone, then I'd say that the trap did play a major role in our inability to generate anything offensively in the final 20 minutes.

Lastly, I don't think it's a "cop out" in any way to point out the obvious. This is not the first time we've hit a brick wall against a team that plays this style. THe devils have been a thorn in our side under DB's entire tenure. There's also a reason why Sid's PPG average is lowest against the Devils in comparison with the rest of our division rivals. We also experienced these problems with the Habs in 2010 and the parts of the 1st round against the Bolts in 2011. DB simply has trouble working against these types of defensive tactics.
The Pens trap it up also in the third with a lead. There are three periods in a game. If you want to beat a good team like the Devils, be prepared to outwork them for the entire game. There is no system that can overcome your players being out worked.

The greatest trapping team I have seen is the Wings and the Pens, under DB, beat them at their own game. It took discipline and hard work, but it paid off.

Beating trapping teams isn't some great mystery. You spread them out and out work them. That is exactly what the Kings did to NJ. Many teams don't have the patience and discipline to do it.

The Pens keep trying to take the easy way out and think they can "out skill" the Devils. It may work once in awhile, but in a seven game series it comes down to playing disciplined hockey and out working the other team.

I have my concerns with DB, but yesterday was a clear case of the Pens fwds being out worked in both zones.

Blame DB. Blame the young blueliners for "turnovers". All of that is looking for excuses and not seeing what was actually happening last night.

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02-11-2013, 09:16 AM
  #392
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+ first period. I seem to remember liking what I was seeing, minus the stupid NJ goal. Some good chances, but Hedberg made some good saves.

= Crosby. No, he couldn't finish, but he made some good chances. Yes, his little "I'm gonna drive the net, stop really fast, and feed Kunitz/Dupuis" is not working and is getting old. I still felt like he brought some game though.

- all other periods. We just got beat. NJ came out to play after the first and you could tell it was going to be a one sided game

-Boychuk. Nothing to add, but he did not fit well with Malkin out there
-Oprik. Looked like his regress yesteryear self. Hope this isn't the direction he is going.
-Malkin. I mean, I could tell he would try a few different things (stretch pass, work it in, dump and chase) but nothing clicked well with him in this game. I get the feeling that he is always trying to replicate that Tampa Bay goal he had last year. The problem is, it doesn't work against 95% of the teams or any defense that is NHL worthy. I'm not sure, he's just getting on my nerves here.

+ Let's not forget the 5 game win streak we had before these two losses. Let's not throw in the towel yet.

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02-11-2013, 09:20 AM
  #393
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But that's what top lines do. They establish zone time.
It'd be nice if our top lines did that consistently. Sid is looking for the pass as soon as he gains the zone. Geno is trying to do everything himself. It's a big problem for us.

Lets see what we look like when Nisky/Letang come back as a pairing. We definitely miss them quickly causing turnovers and moving the puck up ice effectively.

Geno needs a defensive presence and board player. Sid needs someone who can make a play.

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02-11-2013, 09:31 AM
  #394
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Guys like Cooke, Kennedy and Adams need to go. They just aren't getting it done. The bottom six has gotten "stale."

Glass, Sutter, Vitale and Dupuis should be killing penalities and grinding it out.

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02-11-2013, 09:36 AM
  #395
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Here is all I have to say about the Pens with Bylsma as HC. 2nd highest winning percentage in the NHL over that period of time. Obviously he is doing something right. And don't bring the argument that it's all because of Sid Geno making up for his poor coaching, because that would imply that any of us could do just as good of a job....And I know for sure that isn't the case.

Also, for all of the haters who want him fired. Just take a look at our old friends in Washington. They all wanted Budreau fired because he didn't win in the playoffs a few years, and he got all the blame. He changed his system like everyone wanted him do and become more defensive, and what did it get him? Fired! Not look at the Caps. Fans got what they wanted, Budreau fired, and now the Caps are cellar dwellers, and Budreau has the Ducks relevant again.

Be careful what you wish for!
You have to realise that winning in the regular season means nothing once you play in the playoffs. Just ask the Canucks or the Sharks

The coach has to adapt to the style of the opponent in a 7 game series, which Bylisma is having difficulties doing, not saying he's a bad coach

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02-11-2013, 09:37 AM
  #396
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Originally Posted by Terrapin View Post
- Dan Bylsma. Nice timeout with 8 seconds left you douchenozzle.

- Malkin. Hey Geno, how bout scoring some goals at some point this year? I don't give a **** if Francois Leroux was on his wing, making 9 mil a year means you're supposed to be good in spite of other players.

- The dead weight on this team. They're all the same. No use calling them out separately. Kennedy, Cooke, Adams, Boychuk. And to a lesser extent Dupuis. They're all worthless.

- Orpik. Hey tough guy, how bout not letting someone set up and do their taxes in front of the goalie every night?

- Vokoun. Didn't think he played well.

+ Nothing
Just reading PGT this morning, this post is very funny.

I think the Pens are very PP dependant right now, here's hoping they get a ton against the Sens.

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02-11-2013, 09:38 AM
  #397
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Yeah, that's your typical D-Bag response because you can't give any real answer. I'm curious KIRK, what needs to change? What were we supposed to do differently in this game? What would you have done differently??
Here's my opinion, for what it's worth. The biggest issue is not necessarily the stretch pass, as it can help break up the trap, but it has to be down with speed. The issue I'm seeing is that there is far too much space between the defense and all 3 forwards. Ideally, you have 1 guy stretching to the far blue line and the other guys coming up with speed, so if the stretch pass actually connects, he has someone to chip it to. If it's not open the D can make a quick pass to the center coming up with speed, then either chip it in or try a give and go with the stretched forward. The point is, there needs to be options.

Right now we have all 3 forwards basically standing at the far blue line among 5 trapping players. They are letting our d carry the puck up and dump it because everyone else is standing still. So the D's options are either A.) Throw a stretch pass to the far blue line, B.) Skate to the red and dump it in and watch the Devils D beat our forwards, who are standing still, to the puck or C.) Try to dangle.

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02-11-2013, 09:45 AM
  #398
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Originally Posted by Ogelthorpe View Post
Here is all I have to say about the Pens with Bylsma as HC. 2nd highest winning percentage in the NHL over that period of time. Obviously he is doing something right. And don't bring the argument that it's all because of Sid Geno making up for his poor coaching, because that would imply that any of us could do just as good of a job....And I know for sure that isn't the case.

Also, for all of the haters who want him fired. Just take a look at our old friends in Washington. They all wanted Budreau fired because he didn't win in the playoffs a few years, and he got all the blame. He changed his system like everyone wanted him do and become more defensive, and what did it get him? Fired! Not look at the Caps. Fans got what they wanted, Budreau fired, and now the Caps are cellar dwellers, and Budreau has the Ducks relevant again.

Be careful what you wish for!
The St Louis Blues made the playoffs for 25 years but never won the cup. Bylsma's regular season record is meaningless, just like that streak. Bylsma's failures are very clear when you look at how over the now 4 seasons the club's home ice dominance has really waned under Bylsma. Too many of the big game home losses look the same year after year. The lack of desire, hustle, preparedness and urgency from this group under Bylsma is very obvious. The less talented New Jersey Devils just wanted it more this weekend and were determined to get it and that reflects poorly on Bylsma.

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02-11-2013, 09:53 AM
  #399
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
It was not the trap that beat the Pens last night. I really wish people would stop looking at NJ and say... Trap trap trap! The trap can only be used on set breakouts.

This game was lost on the boards. DB has his faults, but when your fwds are losing board battles in both zones, a coach can only make so many adjustments.

The Devils had a heavy forecheck all game and the Pens fwds constantly gave up the points and lost battles up the half wall. There were numerous times a Devil blueliner pinched to the HB on a keep and simply out worked a Pens fwd.

If the Pens fwds had done their jobs along the boards, there would of been multiple chances on the counter attack, without having to worry about beating the trap.

The Devils simply out worked the Pens on the boards in an embarrassing fashion and blaming the trap is a cop out for the Pens fwds.
About ****ing time Jiggy...

I made this post last night after the game, and I'll just cut and paste what I wrote:

That support looks a lot better, and is made a lot easier when you only have to contend with a forward trying to keep the puck in, rather than a forward AND a D.

You want to know my beef with Bylsma? The D don't come low enough, often enough to sustain a cycle.

I know that's going to get a few chuckles because we gave up a couple of odd man breaks that ended up in goals against, but Engo just simply didn't do it smartly. If there's one thing the Devils did against Philly and continue to do this year, is have their D come low to try to squeeze off the boards on any clearing attempt. They have the F3 cover for whoever pinches, and they're able to sustain the cycle.

Seems to me that the Pens are almost afraid to do it. The camera pans over on a clearing attempt, you're thinking a D is about to come down to continue the cycle...and he doesn't.


It's too simplistic to yell out "TRAP, DEVILS!!!" and chalk it up to that. I don't want to insult anyone, but I hate when people don't understand principal strategies and just parrot what others say and state it as fact.

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02-11-2013, 09:56 AM
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Shady Machine
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For the record, I wasn't saying that the trap was the main reason for the loss last night. However, a big issue with this team IMO is zone entries, both on the PP and 5 on 5. We aren't controlling the puck with speed and support through the neutral zone. Worse than that, when we dump the puck in we don't have anyone with speed to retrieve it. Basically we are just giving the other team the puck.

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