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Old
02-11-2013, 09:58 AM
  #401
ColePens
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
About ****ing time Jiggy...

I made this post last night after the game, and I'll just cut and paste what I wrote:

That support looks a lot better, and is made a lot easier when you only have to contend with a forward trying to keep the puck in, rather than a forward AND a D.

You want to know my beef with Bylsma? The D don't come low enough, often enough to sustain a cycle.

I know that's going to get a few chuckles because we gave up a couple of odd man breaks that ended up in goals against, but Engo just simply didn't do it smartly. If there's one thing the Devils did against Philly and continue to do this year, is have their D come low to try to squeeze off the boards on any clearing attempt. They have the F3 cover for whoever pinches, and they're able to sustain the cycle.

Seems to me that the Pens are almost afraid to do it. The camera pans over on a clearing attempt, you're thinking a D is about to come down to continue the cycle...and he doesn't.


It's too simplistic to yell out "TRAP, DEVILS!!!" and chalk it up to that. I don't want to insult anyone, but I hate when people don't understand principal strategies and just parrot what others say and state it as fact.
Yeah I'm complete sold on having our defense pinch off the boards. I've been screaming it for awhile and I know you have. I think that helps create turnovers and sustain pressure. Active defense with back-tracking forwards was what LA Kings did great this last Cup run, too.

I'll never get why we didn't go back to it. I cannot understand it.

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02-11-2013, 10:09 AM
  #402
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Yeah I'm complete sold on having our defense pinch off the boards. I've been screaming it for awhile and I know you have. I think that helps create turnovers and sustain pressure. Active defense with back-tracking forwards was what LA Kings did great this last Cup run, too.

I'll never get why we didn't go back to it. I cannot understand it.
You want to hear my theory? Because I remember Hal Gill and Scuderi doing it for us during the Cup Run...

Remember that Bruins game at home a couple of years ago, during Martin and Michalek's first year? Remember how we blew a two goal lead because Goligoski, Martin, Michalek all took turns making terrible pinching decisions in the third period?

There were a few games like that in and around that period, and it seems to me that since then, they've dialed down the in zone pressure by refusing to come down low, and only doing it when it's absolutely safe.

All I remember thinking last spring, when the Devils absolutely manhandled the Flyers in their zone, was "Man, that's exactly how we used to play"

It's a little disheartening.

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02-11-2013, 10:34 AM
  #403
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
About ****ing time Jiggy...

I made this post last night after the game, and I'll just cut and paste what I wrote:

That support looks a lot better, and is made a lot easier when you only have to contend with a forward trying to keep the puck in, rather than a forward AND a D.

You want to know my beef with Bylsma? The D don't come low enough, often enough to sustain a cycle.

I know that's going to get a few chuckles because we gave up a couple of odd man breaks that ended up in goals against, but Engo just simply didn't do it smartly. If there's one thing the Devils did against Philly and continue to do this year, is have their D come low to try to squeeze off the boards on any clearing attempt. They have the F3 cover for whoever pinches, and they're able to sustain the cycle.

Seems to me that the Pens are almost afraid to do it. The camera pans over on a clearing attempt, you're thinking a D is about to come down to continue the cycle...and he doesn't.


It's too simplistic to yell out "TRAP, DEVILS!!!" and chalk it up to that. I don't want to insult anyone, but I hate when people don't understand principal strategies and just parrot what others say and state it as fact.
I think people just associate the Devils with the trap, then it's easy to blame the loss on the boring Devils trapping it up. All teams play some form of the trap... The great Red Army teams and Habs of the 70s played a trapping style defense.

Hap Day was using a form of the trap back in the 40s, it just wasn't called the "trap" back then. This **** has always been around and it isn't some revolutionary defense the Devils came up with in '95.

The Pens got the puck behind the set trap numerous times and established a pitiful forecheck. Then their fwds got pissed on back in their own zone and out worked. Blaming the boogie man (trap) is a cop out.

If you appreciate the Xs and Os of hockey, execution and discipline, the Devils are a joy to watch. Unfortunately the Pens didn't match their discipline and work ethic this weekend. Blame the coach for not making them work harder I guess... That's a good excuse. There are adjustments that can be made, but your players have to execute on the ice.

I'm putting this on the players.

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02-11-2013, 11:01 AM
  #404
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think people just associate the Devils with the trap, then it's easy to blame the loss on the boring Devils trapping it up. All teams play some form of the trap... The great Red Army teams and Habs of the 70s played a trapping style defense.

Hap Day was using a form of the trap back in the 40s, it just wasn't called the "trap" back then. This **** has always been around and it isn't some revolutionary defense the Devils came up with in '95.

The Pens got the puck behind the set trap numerous times and established a pitiful forecheck. Then their fwds got pissed on back in their own zone and out worked. Blaming the boogie man (trap) is a cop out.

If you appreciate the Xs and Os of hockey, execution and discipline, the Devils are a joy to watch. Unfortunately the Pens didn't match their discipline and work ethic this weekend. Blame the coach for not making them work harder I guess... That's a good excuse. There are adjustments that can be made, but your players have to execute on the ice.

I'm putting this on the players.
Bylsma is far from blameless, but there is something to be said about how the players are going about their business as well.

It's just strange because during the 5-1 game the previous Saturday, the Pens hardly used the stretch pass and it was kind of refreshing to see. Mind you, the Devils were never leading so their approach wasn't quite the same either.

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02-11-2013, 11:06 AM
  #405
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I think people just associate the Devils with the trap, then it's easy to blame the loss on the boring Devils trapping it up. All teams play some form of the trap... The great Red Army teams and Habs of the 70s played a trapping style defense.

Hap Day was using a form of the trap back in the 40s, it just wasn't called the "trap" back then. This **** has always been around and it isn't some revolutionary defense the Devils came up with in '95.

The Pens got the puck behind the set trap numerous times and established a pitiful forecheck. Then their fwds got pissed on back in their own zone and out worked. Blaming the boogie man (trap) is a cop out.

If you appreciate the Xs and Os of hockey, execution and discipline, the Devils are a joy to watch. Unfortunately the Pens didn't match their discipline and work ethic this weekend. Blame the coach for not making them work harder I guess... That's a good excuse. There are adjustments that can be made, but your players have to execute on the ice.

I'm putting this on the players.
I don't disagree with anything you are saying, but the "pitiful forecheck" part is at least somewhat system related (or the players not executing the system on a consistent basis). The forecheck sucked because the forwards didn't have any speed. Why didn't they have speed? To me it wasn't effort but rather because all 3 forwards were gliding through the neutral zone or standing still waiting for the stretch pass. Some of that is system related.

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02-11-2013, 11:09 AM
  #406
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Yeah to blame just Bylsma, especially with this loss, would be unfair. The main reason this board got into a debate is because a user wanted to proclaim he knew how to beat a 1-2-2 or trap..... and it wasn't close. It actually had nothing to do with the game.

Gotta give the Devils credit here. I actually don't think they had a million scoring chances. I thought we had more legit chances than they did. We also controlled the game, in my opinion. They are just so damn good at converting when they need to. We... do not. When Geno has the puck in the slot, I expect a goal. That's what other star players do. He had the puck slip right off his stick WIDE OPEN in the slot. I couldn't believe it.

But yes.. the word trap is thrown around way too much. And I think MTL is perfectly spot on about activating our defense and utilizing that F3. You barely even hear about F3 anymore. Errey used to go crazy with it. We just don't run that style.


edit: And I also agree with Shady about some responsibility is on our system. But last night was not a typical Bylsma lost game. Far from it. I thought he coached pretty good in certain situations, but PD outcoached him.

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02-11-2013, 11:28 AM
  #407
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This is one of the things that has been bothering me. I think the team is missing intangibles rather than skills.
This team has lost its moxie over the past few years. That intensity, energy, exuberence, hunger whatever you want to call it. It was there in spades from 2006-2009, but since the cup win it's gone. The roster needs a bit of a refresh and some stale parts need to be purged.

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02-11-2013, 11:32 AM
  #408
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Originally Posted by Luigi Lemieux View Post
This team has lost its moxie over the past few years. That intensity, energy, exuberence, hunger whatever you want to call it. It was there in spades from 2006-2009, but since the cup win it's gone. The roster needs a bit of a refresh and some stale parts need to be purged.
Agree. Most of the bottom six needs replaced. The hunger starts from there. You are seeing a little more "moxy" from the Defensive since the kids started playing, espcially Bortuzzo. Watching Kennedy fail to win yet another board battle, or watching Cooke and Adams start slinging blind backhand passes across the ice at the oppositions blue line, made me realize we need to start from scratch in the bottom six. (on what planet should Matt Cooke and Craig Adams think its acceptable to do that, and to try it consistently??). Glass was a good start. Vitale shows hustle. The bottom six needs a reboot.

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02-11-2013, 11:52 AM
  #409
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Originally Posted by Shady Machine View Post
I don't disagree with anything you are saying, but the "pitiful forecheck" part is at least somewhat system related (or the players not executing the system on a consistent basis). The forecheck sucked because the forwards didn't have any speed. Why didn't they have speed? To me it wasn't effort but rather because all 3 forwards were gliding through the neutral zone or standing still waiting for the stretch pass. Some of that is system related.
I can say the fourth line played poorly because they had no speed. I'm hoping Vitale was hurt and that is why he was scratched. If not that is a move you can look at DB and wonder wtf he is doing. Vitale's speed is the reason that line has been clicking. He is the first forechecker on the puck a majority of the time and allows the fourth line to establish their cycle.

Last night I saw guys losing an alarming rate of board battles and except for early in the game, only Crosby's line generated a decent cycle.

I saw more than enough dumps with forecheckers moving their feet towards the blueline, but once in the Devils zone they lost 50/50 pucks, didn't support each other well on the boards and often made stupid plays. The Devils stayed in their zones and the Pens made it easy on them.

In turn the Devil's cycle killed the Pens and forced Malkin and Crosby to play defense much more than you will typically see.

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02-11-2013, 11:57 AM
  #410
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
I can say the fourth line played poorly because they had no speed. I'm hoping Vitale was hurt and that is why he was scratched. If not that is a move you can look at DB and wonder wtf he is doing. Vitale's speed is the reason that line has been clicking. He is the first forechecker on the puck a majority of the time and allows the fourth line to establish their cycle.

Last night I saw guys losing an alarming rate of board battles and except for early in the game, only Crosby's line generated a decent cycle.

I saw more than enough dumps with forecheckers moving their feet towards the blueline, but once in the Devils zone they lost 50/50 pucks, didn't support each other well on the boards and often made stupid plays. The Devils stayed in their zones and the Pens made it easy on them.

In turn the Devil's cycle killed the Pens and forced Malkin and Crosby to play defense much more than you will typically see.
I'm 100% convinced that Vitale was benched for those penalties Saturday.

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02-11-2013, 11:59 AM
  #411
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"I think this team may be different than what's traditionally talked about with the Devils," Bylsma said. "We had some scoring chances, we had some opportunities, but the thing they did really well was played in the offensive zone and extended shifts in the offensive zone. ... They did a good job of taking away opportunities for us to get things going by playing in the offensive zone, and we spent a lot of our energy playing defense."

For those saying the Devils trap, did you watch either game? Even your coach isn't using that lame excuse.

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02-11-2013, 12:00 PM
  #412
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Originally Posted by SteveCangialosi123 View Post
"I think this team may be different than what's traditionally talked about with the Devils," Bylsma said. "We had some scoring chances, we had some opportunities, but the thing they did really well was played in the offensive zone and extended shifts in the offensive zone. ... They did a good job of taking away opportunities for us to get things going by playing in the offensive zone, and we spent a lot of our energy playing defense."

For those saying the Devils trap, did you watch either game? Even your coach isn't using that lame excuse.
Did you read the thread at all and not understand or you be trollin?

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02-11-2013, 12:02 PM
  #413
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I don't like watching this games versus the NJD (even if we win) ... they're ... booring

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02-11-2013, 12:04 PM
  #414
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
I'm 100% convinced that Vitale was benched for those penalties Saturday.
Ya I suspect that is the reason but am doing my best not to write how I feel about it...

You have to be on some heavy **** not to understand he IS the reason the fourth line cycles well. As we saw once again last night, you remove Vitale, our fourth line suddenly becomes below avg.

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02-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #415
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Ya I suspect that is the reason but am doing my best not to write how I feel about it...

You have to be on some heavy **** not to understand he IS the reason the fourth line cycles well. As we saw once again last night, you remove Vitale, our fourth line suddenly becomes below avg.
It causes me to lose some respect for Disco if it's true simply because I don't think Vitale's penalties were penalties. Talk to him about being careful along the boards and being cognizant of how the officials are calling the game, but don't punish him for playing *exactly* how you want him (and the rest of the team) to play.

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02-11-2013, 12:41 PM
  #416
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
It causes me to lose some respect for Disco if it's true simply because I don't think Vitale's penalties were penalties. Talk to him about being careful along the boards and being cognizant of how the officials are calling the game, but don't punish him for playing *exactly* how you want him (and the rest of the team) to play.
Why not sit Adams so Jeffrey can come in? Adams is old and giving him a rest with B2B games is quite reasonable.

He's benched Vitale with no good reason before, so this isn't an isolated thing.

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02-11-2013, 01:11 PM
  #417
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Did you read the thread at all and not understand or you be trollin?
Yeah, seriously

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02-11-2013, 01:12 PM
  #418
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"I think this team may be different than what's traditionally talked about with the Devils," Bylsma said. "We had some scoring chances, we had some opportunities, but the thing they did really well was played in the offensive zone and extended shifts in the offensive zone. ... They did a good job of taking away opportunities for us to get things going by playing in the offensive zone, and we spent a lot of our energy playing defense."

For those saying the Devils trap, did you watch either game? Even your coach isn't using that lame excuse.
first of all, if you're going to come onto the Pens board and whine all day with no intention of discussing the topic appropriately, i suggest you actually read the posts talking about the trap system or get out of here.

second of all, if you think people calling your system a trap system is a huge insult, you should get a thicker skin.

"OMG THEY CALLED OUR SYSTEM A TRAP SYSTEM THIS IS HORRIBLE" you don't see me on the main board anytime one of 8383726261 "Pens are dirty" threads pops up with full support of fans from 29 other teams while a few misguided Pens fans try to defend their team to no avail.

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02-11-2013, 01:14 PM
  #419
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Why not sit Adams so Jeffrey can come in? Adams is old and giving him a rest with B2B games is quite reasonable.

He's benched Vitale with no good reason before, so this isn't an isolated thing.
Craig Adams? Hate to break this to you but Dan Bylsma loves Craig Adams so much even Ray Shero has commented about how big a favorite he is with spectacles. Hence, another of the many problems exposed with having Bylsma as coach, he plays favorites no matter what the end results may be.

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02-11-2013, 01:40 PM
  #420
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U mad? And I did read them and they're incorrect. The Devils in no way run a trapping system. That's a fact. We have one of the more aggressive play styles in hockey and in no way resemble Devils teams of old. Keep on whining like Sid tho.
The devils style of play is boring to alot of the pens fans theirs nothing u can say thats gonna change that. If you guys enjoy your style of hockey good for you and your fans.

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02-11-2013, 01:51 PM
  #421
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Yeah to blame just Bylsma, especially with this loss, would be unfair. The main reason this board got into a debate is because a user wanted to proclaim he knew how to beat a 1-2-2 or trap..... and it wasn't close. It actually had nothing to do with the game.

Gotta give the Devils credit here. I actually don't think they had a million scoring chances. I thought we had more legit chances than they did. We also controlled the game, in my opinion. They are just so damn good at converting when they need to. We... do not. When Geno has the puck in the slot, I expect a goal. That's what other star players do. He had the puck slip right off his stick WIDE OPEN in the slot. I couldn't believe it.

But yes.. the word trap is thrown around way too much. And I think MTL is perfectly spot on about activating our defense and utilizing that F3. You barely even hear about F3 anymore. Errey used to go crazy with it. We just don't run that style.


edit: And I also agree with Shady about some responsibility is on our system. But last night was not a typical Bylsma lost game. Far from it. I thought he coached pretty good in certain situations, but PD outcoached him.
HAHA You still don't think that I know what I'm talking about. My offer still stands, you can come down to RMU and talk Xs and Os with me. I can get a film room for us to use.

PS, the whole argument started with KIRK saying Bylsma just doesn't know what he's doing and that he coaches the players to put themselves in bad positions.

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02-11-2013, 02:02 PM
  #422
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It was not the trap that beat the Pens last night. I really wish people would stop looking at NJ and say... Trap trap trap! The trap can only be used on set breakouts.

This game was lost on the boards. DB has his faults, but when your fwds are losing board battles in both zones, a coach can only make so many adjustments.

The Devils had a heavy forecheck all game and the Pens fwds constantly gave up the points and lost battles up the half wall. There were numerous times a Devil blueliner pinched to the HB on a keep and simply out worked a Pens fwd.

If the Pens fwds had done their jobs along the boards, there would of been multiple chances on the counter attack, without having to worry about beating the trap.

The Devils simply out worked the Pens on the boards in an embarrassing fashion and blaming the trap is a cop out for the Pens fwds.

Something that bugs me when the Pens get scored on a bunch is the knee jerk reaction to say the defensemen were terrible (ex the D couldn't get the puck out of the zone), when usually, it's something the forwards are doing that causes cascade failures of one sort or another. Kudos on properly diagnosing why we were hemmed in.

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02-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #423
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Originally Posted by Mr Jiggyfly View Post
Why not sit Adams so Jeffrey can come in? Adams is old and giving him a rest with B2B games is quite reasonable.

He's benched Vitale with no good reason before, so this isn't an isolated thing.
Has Disco EVER scratched any player that helped him win the Stanley Cup in 2009? It seems to me every single remaining player from the '09 Cup team has a complete free pass with this team. Tyler Kennedy should be sat for a few games. Craig Adams, as you say Jiggy, should not play in back-to-back games.

But it won't happen anytime soon. He has his guys and he'll go to the grave with them, no matter what.

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02-11-2013, 10:23 PM
  #424
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I do not understand why so many debates here after losses ultimately come down to people making adamant statements that there is ONE definite issue that caused a loss, rather than a number of related yet distinct issues (and some times just mere coincidence).

It is not just the players or the coach to blame. It is not just New Jersey's forechecking or their neutral zone trapping once you've beaten the forecheck. It is not just lack of compete level from our forwards or predictable outlets from defense making it tough for the forwards to win races. It isn't just 'our stars have coal miners for wingers' or Malkin and Crosby have to be better. It isn't just Dan won a Cup and and a Jack Adams, he just needs more time or Dan is deeply flawed, too stubborn, can't adjust and is terrible at meritocracy.

It is a mixed bag, and with a bit of luck we would have beaten New Jersey yesterday. We had more scoring chances after all, and in that case most here would have seen no problems whatsoever, because the box score is always right.


Last edited by Tender Rip: 02-11-2013 at 11:15 PM.
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02-11-2013, 10:51 PM
  #425
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Has Disco EVER scratched any player that helped him win the Stanley Cup in 2009? It seems to me every single remaining player from the '09 Cup team has a complete free pass with this team. Tyler Kennedy should be sat for a few games. Craig Adams, as you say Jiggy, should not play in back-to-back games.

But it won't happen anytime soon. He has his guys and he'll go to the grave with them, no matter what.
It's not like the Pens are bursting with quality healthy scratches to come in and take over Kennedy's spot. I doubt Tangradi or Jeffrey would do much better.

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