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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-22-2013, 02:14 PM
  #226
UnderratedBrooks44
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When Tangradi does something of note then we can argue about him again how's that everyone

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02-22-2013, 02:15 PM
  #227
IcedCapp
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Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
That explains giving Sid's minutes being what they are due to the extra defensive draws.

What explains the disparity between Sid's minutes and Geno's minutes is that the coaching staff is perfectly content to keep rolling lines where there's an offensive zone faceoff in the left dot.

I've been watching the last few. Almost every single time, Bylsma keeps the rotation going or throws Sid and Geno out together. He never goes out of his way-- like last year-- to break the line rolling to give Geno and Neal that left dot faceoff.
Bylsma insistence on constantly rolling 4 lines regardless of context or situation is stupid and infuriating.

That said, PART OF THIS is on Geno: work your ass off, get better at face-offs.

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02-22-2013, 02:15 PM
  #228
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Have to agree with Brooks. Much as I love Vitale, I'm not going to lose sleep over him not playing, and I agree that Glass and Adams are better pkers.

I frigging hate how Bylsma uses our fourth line against the other team's top lines, though.

I also hate hate hate how our fourth line is always out there with 2 minutes or less in a period, regardless of the score. Sometimes we're down a goal with a minute left in the first or second and out hops the fourth line. I'd rather see one of our top three in that situation where a goal might steal us back some momentum for the third period, but Bylsma has this rigidly strict coaching style that insists his 4th must be out a certain number of shifts a game.

It's like he's afraid to improvise. Some games I'd like to see our 4th get shafted in minutes and our top line play more minutes. Do it every night? No. But in certain situations like when we're down I hate the fact that Bylsma is steady as she goes and keeps doing his same line rotations.
I don't think it's "fear" as much as it is him simply having coaching limitations. Tactically speaking I've always found the guy to be very limited. Don't get me wrong, when his tactics are working this team is easily best in the league. However when they're not he seems unable to adjust them accordingly.

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02-22-2013, 02:16 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
Bylsma insistence on constantly rolling 4 lines regardless of context or situation is stupid and infuriating.

That said, PART OF THIS is on Geno: work your ass off, get better at face-offs.


THis has been the weakest aspect of Geno's game since arriving in the NHL and it hasn't improved one bit. It's frustrating to see.

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02-22-2013, 02:17 PM
  #230
Sidney the Kidney
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KIRK View Post
That explains giving Sid's minutes being what they are due to the extra defensive draws.

What explains the disparity between Sid's minutes and Geno's minutes is that the coaching staff is perfectly content to keep rolling lines where there's an offensive zone faceoff in the left dot.

I've been watching the last few. Almost every single time, Bylsma keeps the rotation going or throws Sid and Geno out together. He never goes out of his way-- like last year-- to break the line rolling to give Geno and Neal that left dot faceoff.
I don't necessarily disagree with that. But at the same time, I think if Geno actually worked on becoming a better face off man (ie. if he could even be 50% on draws over a full season), you'd see his minutes go up even with Bylsma's use of the 4th line. He'd likely even get some PK time, like Sid does this season, if he was an asset in the face off circle.

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02-22-2013, 02:25 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
What point? He got 6 out of 20 minutes in a close game. No one has said a negative thing about him yet. And you have to look at his linemates, both of whom he continues to get more ice time than. (In other words, Wellwood keeps having his minutes cut, but they keep finding ways to get Tangradi on the ice more)

You made a post trying to show how he was once again failing. When he got a ton of ice time in the 3rd period of a close game (evidence that contradicted your original post) you stopped pointing out ice time and went back to stats. If ice time wasn't relevant, why'd you point it out in the first place?
At the time I posted, he had six minutes of ice time. Six. They had one goal up until then and threw him out there a few more times in the third. Kudos. He still had 12 minutes of ice time total, and once again, no points.

This is like listening to Star Wars fans defending "The Phantom Menace".

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02-22-2013, 02:33 PM
  #232
IcedCapp
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
At the time I posted, he had six minutes of ice time. Six. They had one goal up until then and threw him out there a few more times in the third. Kudos. He still had 12 minutes of ice time total, and once again, no points.

This is like listening to Star Wars fans defending "The Phantom Menace".
a few more times? Tangradi is pulling a Kovalchoo with these shift lengths

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02-22-2013, 02:59 PM
  #233
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By the way, Mtl: yea, he has 0p in his games with the Jets, but he's been no worse than our 4th-line wings and one of the 3rd-line wings have a majority of games. I think that's the point. The guy is clearly not a 2nd-line player. He may never become that. But he's not looking out of place getting consistent bottom-6 minutes.

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02-22-2013, 03:11 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by IcedCapp View Post
By the way, Mtl: yea, he has 0p in his games with the Jets, but he's been no worse than our 4th-line wings and one of the 3rd-line wings have a majority of games. I think that's the point. The guy is clearly not a 2nd-line player. He may never become that. But he's not looking out of place getting consistent bottom-6 minutes.
And my point is, if all we gave up on was a third liner, we can pick one up off waivers or on the cheap in FA.

I just watched the third period. He had 3 shifts up until the Jets scored their 4th goal, then he was put on the ice a few times without his regular linemates, I assume for his size and because they don't trust Wellwood to defend a lead.

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02-22-2013, 04:25 PM
  #235
IcedCapp
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And my point is, if all we gave up on was a third liner, we can pick one up off waivers or on the cheap in FA.

I just watched the third period. He had 3 shifts up until the Jets scored their 4th goal, then he was put on the ice a few times without his regular linemates, I assume for his size and because they don't trust Wellwood to defend a lead.
If this is how you feel, I'm not sure why we're disagreeing. What would the harm have been in taking Tangradi or Jeffrey and saying: the 3rd or 4th line spot is yours, go play hockey.

We know what Adams (and to a lesser, but still relatively certain extent, Kennedy) are. I'm not sure (I know others claim to be) what Tangradi and Jeffrey are/will be. But I do know we'll never find out if they aren't playing consistent minutes.

The Jets aren't... desperate... to make the playoffs, but they are eager. They saw enough talent and potential in this kid to give him substantial minutes over an established veteran in the middle of a push to make the playoffs. Pens have a lot more wiggle room to take these low-risk, high-reward chances and they don't.

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02-22-2013, 04:54 PM
  #236
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
And my point is, if all we gave up on was a third liner, we can pick one up off waivers or on the cheap in FA.

I just watched the third period. He had 3 shifts up until the Jets scored their 4th goal, then he was put on the ice a few times without his regular linemates, I assume for his size and because they don't trust Wellwood to defend a lead.
I'd say even labeling him a legitimate third liner, as it stands now, is being a little generous. At some point, production does matter to a certain extent. A guy that never produces and is only out there because he's a big body is a fourth liner. If that's all Tangradi ever becomes, that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. But I would agree that it's hardly an indication that the Pens were wrong for letting him go or that the coaching staff underestimated him in any way.

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02-22-2013, 05:35 PM
  #237
Jacques G
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Listening to Max Pacioretty Interview...

So I just watched a Max Pacioretty interview on NHL LIVE (don't have a link, couldn't find one), and he was asked what he thought about Michel Therrien. His reply was pretty awesome. To paraphrase, "Therrien is tough. If you aren't playing good, you get benched. If you are playing well, you get ice time. This team had become more of a country club over the past few years and this was really what we needed."

Hrmmm...

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02-22-2013, 05:39 PM
  #238
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And how long have you felt this way?
27 months

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02-22-2013, 05:41 PM
  #239
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It's what they need for now but they'll be sick of him and will play uninspired hockey to get him run out of town again within two or three years.

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02-22-2013, 05:48 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Jacques G View Post
Yeah, I was actually hinting at the Pens current situation, but I didn't realize the Bylsma thread had come to encompass all coaching in general. I'll just post my OP in that thread, mods feel free to close this one.
Yeah, I think the Pens could use a guy like MT to whip them back into good habits right now. The same way that they needed a guy like Bylsma to come in and ease up on them a bit after MT's disciplinarian act got old a few years back.

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02-22-2013, 06:00 PM
  #241
Darth Vitale
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Agreed 100% with those who point out Therrien has a limited shelf life. The novelty wears off real quick with a guy like that. Won't be surprised if he's gone by next summer. I think he'd make a better assistant coach / do the good-cop-bad-cop thing.

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02-22-2013, 06:02 PM
  #242
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Byslma has a shelf life too. Lets just fire coaches every 3 years, replacing them mid season on to win the cup.

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02-22-2013, 06:10 PM
  #243
Jacques G
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Agreed 100% with those who point out Therrien has a limited shelf life. The novelty wears off real quick with a guy like that. Won't be surprised if he's gone by next summer. I think he'd make a better assistant coach / do the good-cop-bad-cop thing.
Yeah, nowadays I'd say that's definitely the case. But back in the day, it was that exact coaching mentality that brought Bowman all his success.

Seems like owners aren't as concerned these days with winning the Cup, but are trying more to find that sweet-spot where their star players are happy and they are winning enough games to sell seats, jerseys, hats, etc. The game is not the same as it was back then.

EDIT: Rather, the business of hockey is not the same.

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02-22-2013, 06:12 PM
  #244
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Yeah, nowadays I'd say that's definitely the case. But back in the day, it was that exact coaching mentality that brought Bowman all his success.

Seems like owners aren't as concerned these days with winning the Cup, but are trying more to find that sweet-spot where their star players are happy and they are winning enough games to sell seats, jerseys, hats, etc. The game is not the same as it was back then.
Probably true re GMs. The days of coaches like Keenan and Therrien are numbered IMO. #EndageredSpecies

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02-22-2013, 06:16 PM
  #245
Jacques G
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Probably true re GMs. The days of coaches like Keenan and Therrien are numbered IMO. #EndageredSpecies
I would say that there will remain a few that are very very good at what they do, and like others have posted, they will be brought in for a few years to turn the team around, then be replaced by a Bylsma to appease the whole yin-and-yang. If there are 2 or 3 of those guys in the league, they won't be without work, they'll just move around a lot.

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02-22-2013, 06:16 PM
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
Agreed 100% with those who point out Therrien has a limited shelf life. The novelty wears off real quick with a guy like that. Won't be surprised if he's gone by next summer. I think he'd make a better assistant coach / do the good-cop-bad-cop thing.
I partially agree with this, but the bad cop part has to go to the head coach and MT already was fired from that position here

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02-22-2013, 06:30 PM
  #247
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Therrien is a good coach. I'll never say he isn't, but his message really gets old quick. When you have a young team, they need that structure, and they need a coach to be hard on them. Once they grow and mature a bit, that message is useless.

I'll always contend that Michel Therrien is an elite level AHL coach because he can develop young guys very well, and prepare them for the NHL. I just think he lacks in the X's and O's part of the game.

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02-22-2013, 06:32 PM
  #248
IcedCapp
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I'm not Bylsma's biggest fan, but I'm not quite sure the Penguins have reached "Country Club" levels.

I was scared ****less after the Islanders loss. I worried that it was a sign that the team had tuned him out and was just going through the motions. But then they went on a run.

My point is, this team seems to respond well, and rebound from, bad losses. I think that's a sign of a coach who can still reach the players and, to some degree, hold them accountable.

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02-22-2013, 06:33 PM
  #249
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I agree, Therrien definitely has a shelf life, like most coaches.

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02-23-2013, 01:58 AM
  #250
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Did I read that wrong, or did Bylsma say that if Malkin is out for any length of time, Sutter moves up to play with Neal and Bennett? Why wouldn't you move Neal up to play with Sid, and move Dupuis down to play with Sutter and Bennett instead? Why is he so obsessed with a Kunitz/Crosby/Dupuis line?

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