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Bylsma/coaching staff discussion thread II

View Poll Results: So can Bylsma still lead them to the promised land?
Sure why not, Bylsma’s system is fine. The team will win another cup with him 40 33.33%
Nah, Bylsma has a better chance of winning dancing with the stars than another cup 80 66.67%
Voters: 120. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-11-2013, 07:00 AM
  #26
rocky7
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He stands there with almost zero emotion with his arms crossed. IMO, he should be replaced with a more interactive coach. His or any coaches job is to motivate. He doesn't cut it in that department at all.

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02-11-2013, 07:17 AM
  #27
Gooch
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Just look at the way Bylsma is portrayed in the media. He has the 2nd highest winning percentage since taking over according to the graphic shown yesterday on NBC Sports. The media folk will rave over him and that will make it incredibly difficult to fire him. I just don't see it happening even if he put up an abysmal effort this year because when you fire someone who has that kind of record it requires some serious explanations and will open you up to criticisms.

I voted no, I don't think he'll win. I think that his success is largely driven by generational talent coming into their prime rather than his coaching and that most any coach would get them where they are today. I was honestly worried about him straight away when he was first given the job when Sykora said what he did about him and how we saw Pascal Dupuis bolted to the hip of Crosby without so much as an audition given to any other player on the team. There was grinder love and skill hate then and that still carries on now it's just that his "success" has made it incredibly difficult to fire him so we're going to be stuck with him for at least a couple more seasons.

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02-11-2013, 07:34 AM
  #28
Flat Stanley
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I don't think Bylsma will win another Stanley Cup as our head coach. You know, people say the typical yinzer response is to fire the coach and we're just typical Pittsburgh fans, but Bylsma is so overrated it's not even funny.

Part of the reason why we lost is because we're without Letang, we're a different team when he's not in the lineup, but that still shouldn't be an excuse when you lose....no....get owned in back to back games against a team you are neck and neck with in the division, to prove that Dan Bylsma doesn't know how to make adjustments.

He's overrated, he won the Cup with Therrien's system in place, he can be credited for bringing positive attitude and energy to that team in 2009, but that can only get you so far, this team needs a defensive system in place, and will have no success until that happens.

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02-11-2013, 07:42 AM
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think Bylsma will win another Stanley Cup as our head coach. You know, people say the typical yinzer response is to fire the coach and we're just typical Pittsburgh fans, but Bylsma is so overrated it's not even funny.

Part of the reason why we lost is because we're without Letang, we're a different team when he's not in the lineup, but that still shouldn't be an excuse when you lose....no....get owned in back to back games against a team you are neck and neck with in the division, to prove that Dan Bylsma doesn't know how to make adjustments.

He's overrated, he won the Cup with Therrien's system in place, he can be credited for bringing positive attitude and energy to that team in 2009, but that can only get you so far, this team needs a defensive system in place, and will have no success until that happens.
He stinks against the Devils, which is why I was pleasantly surprised at the result the first time we played them. Then this weekend seemed like we're back to the same old ****.

He's been outcoached by Boucher, Laviolette, and whoever the hell coached Montreal a few years ago (Martin?), but his biggest problem has always been having no answers when the game plan doesn't work.

The top end guys on this team give Bylsma a lot of cover. I firmly believe anyone with head coaching experience at the pro level could steer this team to a 4th or 5th place finish most years, with the exception of when we played the Lightning which he deserves full credit for. He ground it out and took advantage of the loser point and shootout, but he did it nonetheless.

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02-11-2013, 08:36 AM
  #30
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My take on Disco Dan is relatively straight forward:

He's a great guy, top tier regular season coach, and overall a great ambassador for the Penguins. However, his system is extremely inflexible and he tends to get outcoached in the post-season by a wide margin.

When you have a huge warchest of talent like the Penguins do, it tends to cover up a lot of coaching flaws. At the end of the day, having the 2 best players in the world is a hell of a leg up on the competition.

However, I think the flaws of Bylsma's approach really start to show in the post-season and against tougher opponents (like the Devils).

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02-11-2013, 08:36 AM
  #31
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Originally Posted by Chancellor Vitale View Post
You forgot the: He might win another one... if he'd just adapt to the way other coaches are game-planning his system... be a little more flexible and unpredictable.
He's shown zero flexibility or development in his tactics in almost 4 years. This is even in spite of the fact that it has burned him on numerous occasions since winning the cup. I doubt it's because the man lacks the ingenuity to try something different, but he definitely seems stubborn as hell to try. He just doesn't seem to know how to figure out to crack trapping teams, which is very worrisome.

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02-11-2013, 08:41 AM
  #32
Flat Stanley
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I don't think Bylsma needs to go, he's still a good coach, just an overrated one I think. I don't think there's anyone out there that can come in and do a better job. Bylsma's fine, he just needs to make smarter decisions and better adjustments, no team is perfect, every coach and team has their flaws.

I think he needs to focus on team defense instead of playing a transition game.

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02-11-2013, 08:44 AM
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think Bylsma needs to go, he's still a good coach, just an overrated one I think. I don't think there's anyone out there that can come in and do a better job. Bylsma's fine, he just needs to make smarter decisions and better adjustments, no team is perfect, every coach and team has their flaws.

I think he needs to focus on team defense instead of playing a transition game.
Stretch passes definitely need to be re-evaluated. I'm not saying eliminate them entirely, but god damn do we ever tend to abuse em! Also, if you're going to have your team play a simplified dump-and-chase style of offense then please make sure they're at least going to have a snowball's chance in hell at winning the races to those dump ins. Otherwise we're basically just gifting them the puck back every time.

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02-11-2013, 09:20 AM
  #34
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I believe the Pens organization has lost its way. They're too much in love with the 2009 Stanley Cup win with Bylsma in charge. Bylsma has continously come up short, too many of the losses look exactly the same over the now last 4 seasons. This team is just terrible at the CEC (home losses one sign of a bad coach) when it is an opponent they have to beat. A third liner like Tyler Kennedy never being scratched when he just drifts game after game doing nothing, just shows that Bylsma isn't their coach as much as he wants to be just another boy on the bus. The ownership & Shero better do something because if another failure happens this spring those prime years of Crosby, Malkin, Letang and Fleury are being flushed down the toilet with Bylsma and his incompetent staff in charge.

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02-11-2013, 12:06 PM
  #35
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I don't like Bylsma at all but honestly how does an organization fire a coach with as high of a winning % that Bylsma has and who currently has a winning record this season? It's just so far from occurring at this point it's really not worth fantasizing over. It'll take either not making the playoffs, or a few more early playoff exits. His cup win bought him a lot of time unlike Boudreau who couldnt point to that as reason not to be fired. I am not saying I agree with this but just looking at how it has gone with other organizations across different sports it would just be way too out of wack for him to be fired in the near future.

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02-11-2013, 12:12 PM
  #36
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Sitting at 4th place in the east... fire the coach!

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02-11-2013, 12:36 PM
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think Bylsma will win another Stanley Cup as our head coach. You know, people say the typical yinzer response is to fire the coach and we're just typical Pittsburgh fans, but Bylsma is so overrated it's not even funny.

Part of the reason why we lost is because we're without Letang, we're a different team when he's not in the lineup, but that still shouldn't be an excuse when you lose....no....get owned in back to back games against a team you are neck and neck with in the division, to prove that Dan Bylsma doesn't know how to make adjustments.

He's overrated, he won the Cup with Therrien's system in place, he can be credited for bringing positive attitude and energy to that team in 2009, but that can only get you so far, this team needs a defensive system in place, and will have no success until that happens.
That is easily the biggest fallacy on this board.

They were about 4 months removed from Therrien being fired and winning the Cup.

To be clear, if Babcock or Quenneville get dumped in the first round for a third year in a row, they should both be fired?


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Old
02-11-2013, 01:53 PM
  #38
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
That is easily the biggest fallacy on this board.

They were about 4 months removed from Therrien being fired and winning the Cup.

To be clear, if Babcock or Quenneville get dumped in the first round for a third year in a row, they should both be fired?
No, just like I said in my next post that Bylsma shouldn't be fired.

I know the Cup came after 4 months, but do you think Bylsma came in and completely implemented a new system and 4 months later won the Cup? I don't. Dan Bylsma provided a spark and told the team to do things differently and to be more physical. We had good veterans on this team to help us win, and we had more shutdown defensemen.

But if you look at the seasons after our Cup win, you would see a struggling defense. We replaced Gill and Scuderi with Goligoski and Leopold. We also had McKee, and when he played we were fine, but he found his place on the bench in favor of small puck movers. In the playoffs Leopold got knocked out, McKee came in and we won games, as soon as Leopold came back, there goes McKee back to the bench and then the Penguins lost games.

In 2011, Engelland found his place on the bench in the playoffs in favor of Ben Lovejoy to play with Matt Niskanen, that series was "eh" because we were without Sid and Geno.

The problem is, there is no structure. There was structure during the Cup year. After that? Nope, 2011? Yes because it seemed the only way to win was to out-defend the other team. Last year? Nope. This year? I don't see it.

We had structure when Therrien was here, we had structure for the 1st 4 months of Bylsma, but this team has been playing a run and gun, transition game ever since and when Fleury can't keep up with that "HE SUCKS!"

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02-11-2013, 01:59 PM
  #39
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This roster can win a Cup, it just needs its head in the right space. Who knows if Bylsma can get them there.
I actually think the rosters the problem. Sid and Malkin still don't have two set wingers while Letang still doesn't have a partner. Meanwhile I'm not sure if this team has a PPQB. IMO since that cup win the Pens have gotten a little worse every year.

As far as Disco goes, I'm torn. I like the way he handles himself and the team but there are some holes. I actually like his system once its been cleaned up but I downright hate his plan B and C.

Then we get to Mario. I've always felt that he goes beyond the player or the owner just here to make a buck. I think he actually cares about the Pens and Pittsburgh. That being said the confy and cozy atmosphere he seems to want behind the scenes and the ABC family team he wants on the ice just doesn't win. The teams that went to back to back finals were a bunch of cowboys from hell. The back to back cup winning teams during the 90's weren't well liked. That era of winning sloppy and losing badly was supposed to be a thing of the past. Let this be Sids team because I would bet my left arm that he doesn't want or need the nicy nice crap.

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02-11-2013, 02:02 PM
  #40
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Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
No, just like I said in my next post that Bylsma shouldn't be fired.

I know the Cup came after 4 months, but do you think Bylsma came in and completely implemented a new system and 4 months later won the Cup? I don't. Dan Bylsma provided a spark and told the team to do things differently and to be more physical. We had good veterans on this team to help us win, and we had more shutdown defensemen.

But if you look at the seasons after our Cup win, you would see a struggling defense. We replaced Gill and Scuderi with Goligoski and Leopold. We also had McKee, and when he played we were fine, but he found his place on the bench in favor of small puck movers. In the playoffs Leopold got knocked out, McKee came in and we won games, as soon as Leopold came back, there goes McKee back to the bench and then the Penguins lost games.

In 2011, Engelland found his place on the bench in the playoffs in favor of Ben Lovejoy to play with Matt Niskanen, that series was "eh" because we were without Sid and Geno.

The problem is, there is no structure. There was structure during the Cup year. After that? Nope, 2011? Yes because it seemed the only way to win was to out-defend the other team. Last year? Nope. This year? I don't see it.

We had structure when Therrien was here, we had structure for the 1st 4 months of Bylsma, but this team has been playing a run and gun, transition game ever since and when Fleury can't keep up with that "HE SUCKS!"
I can't take anyone seriously when they blame coaching for the Montreal series. I blame Fleury having a below .890 save% and the guy 200 feet away playing out of his mind.

Just look at Crosby's comments after that series (you can youtube it) where he basically comes out and says that he doesn't understand how a team's strategy to win is to get outchanced 2 to 1 every game.

Crosby OR Malkin being in the Tampa series (nevermind both) and it never gets to a game 7. Blame the PP, blame the 1-3-1 (zone entry was NOT a problem that series), but I blame Marc Letestu having to be a top 6 center.

Philly admittedly was a **** ton of sucktitude by EVERYONE up and down the line. However poorly the defense played, our GM going and paying 2M a year for a backup goalie ought to tell you what he thought of that series.

I can flip any of these arguments on it's head if I choose to.

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Old
02-11-2013, 02:17 PM
  #41
Flat Stanley
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Originally Posted by MtlPenFan View Post
I can't take anyone seriously when they blame coaching for the Montreal series. I blame Fleury having a below .890 save% and the guy 200 feet away playing out of his mind.

Just look at Crosby's comments after that series (you can youtube it) where he basically comes out and says that he doesn't understand how a team's strategy to win is to get outchanced 2 to 1 every game.
I'm not blaming coaching for the Montreal series, I'm not even going to point the finger at Fleury either. The team just couldn't handle the Habs, Kunitz-Crosby-Guerin was shut down by Georges, Gill and the line they were out against, Malkin was in a slump with Ponikarovsky and Fedotenko, probably our worst line. Fleury wasn't too solid and the defense was bad, Orpik-Gonchar, Eaton-Letang, Goligoski-Leopold, not exactly a recipe for success.

And like you said, Halak played out of this world.

Quote:
Crosby OR Malkin being in the Tampa series (nevermind both) and it never gets to a game 7. Blame the PP, blame the 1-3-1 (zone entry was NOT a problem that series), but I blame Marc Letestu having to be a top 6 center.
I agree, Bylsma won the Jack Adams after that season and he deserved it, everything was fine against Tampa Bay we just came up short, I addressed that, we had structure then, and that was how we were beating teams.

Quote:
Philly admittedly was a **** ton of sucktitude by EVERYONE up and down the line. However poorly the defense played, our GM going and paying 2M a year for a backup goalie ought to tell you what he thought of that series.
Yes it was, and it didn't just magically start that way when the playoffs started. The Penguins were giving up too many odd man breaks, goals, scoring chances, etc. Why? Because like I said, they lacked structure, and yes, Dan Bylsma should be at fault there, because he lost control of the team, TSN intermission even talked about it, they said Bylsma needs to calm his team down and take control, did he? No.

This year seems no different, they've been playing inconsistent hockey, while looking good some nights, they looked lazy and effortless other nights, they're undisciplined, take too many penalties. Sure you can blame the players for that, but those kind of things do fall on the head coach whether it's right or wrong.

I don't think it's fair to criticize Bylsma over the past 2 games with Letang and Niskanen out of the lineup, we're an entirely different team without Letang. But if you look at the end of last year, and at least half (if not more) than this year, Bylsma has made some pretty poor decisions.

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Old
02-11-2013, 02:59 PM
  #42
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Ask WSH if they regret blowing up their team and firing their coach.

I don't think Bylsma is the main issue. Firing him may yield temporary relief, but this is still the same core that got Therrien fired. It will happen again. Bylsma is probably the 2nd best coach the Pens have had ever. He has his stupidity with respect to personnel, but so do the Pens as an organization. He still runs a solid theory based game plan. Out shot the other team and play in their zone. Firing Bylsma is much more risk than reward longterm. Shero still has ultimate say over roster personnel.

Pens still seem to not understand that you live and die by 5v5 production. If they followed this rule, they never would've signed Michalek, Adams, Glass, or Asham. Don't even get me started on MAF and their reluctance to bench or trade him. 4th line is and has been a waste of ice time since Talbot left. They NEVER score and only allow goals against. This isn't helping at all. You can't tell me Adams is better than Tangradi / DJ / any warm body in WBS.

Main problem has been a lack of desire to go to the front of the net (in the last 10 games). I constantly see players (especially Crosby) skate right past the front of the net on rushes, or shots. They aren't going to consistently score 5v5 goals without getting their noses dirty in the crease. No 5v5 goals, no winny. My bigger concern with the Pens has been the recent trend of them being out shot in games. You will never field a winning team with a negative team corsi.

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02-11-2013, 03:16 PM
  #43
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Let's play the what if game. Let's say Byslma gets the rest of this year baring something terrible happening. If the Penguins get bounced in the first or second round this year, what do you think would happen? Would the Pens fire him? Would you want him gone in that situation?

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02-11-2013, 03:21 PM
  #44
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Originally Posted by Jaded-Fan View Post
As the started of this thread let me say one thing.

Bylsma has a system that obvious works most of the time. He has had 100 point plus seasons the past few years with it, so it gets you wins. But the problem is that there are some systems that it does NOT work against and he seems incapable of adjusting to those. The real scary part is that the systems that work against Bylsma's are the systems we are most likely to see in the playoffs where teams play a more defensive system generally and you do not see wideopen play that Bylsma feeds on.
Well, we played against a WIDE-open style in Philadelphia last spring and got our ***** handed to us. We played an ultra-passive squad in Montreal in 2010 and lost embarassingly in 7. And we held a 3-1 win without our two superstars and choked it away.

I don't think the style of team matters. What matters is if there is ANY coach in the league that Disco can out-coach for 4-7 games. I don't think we've seen it happen yet.

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02-11-2013, 03:24 PM
  #45
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Just look at the way Bylsma is portrayed in the media. He has the 2nd highest winning percentage since taking over according to the graphic shown yesterday on NBC Sports. The media folk will rave over him and that will make it incredibly difficult to fire him. I just don't see it happening even if he put up an abysmal effort this year because when you fire someone who has that kind of record it requires some serious explanations and will open you up to criticisms.

I voted no, I don't think he'll win. I think that his success is largely driven by generational talent coming into their prime rather than his coaching and that most any coach would get them where they are today. I was honestly worried about him straight away when he was first given the job when Sykora said what he did about him and how we saw Pascal Dupuis bolted to the hip of Crosby without so much as an audition given to any other player on the team. There was grinder love and skill hate then and that still carries on now it's just that his "success" has made it incredibly difficult to fire him so we're going to be stuck with him for at least a couple more seasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eyes of Orpik View Post
I don't think Bylsma will win another Stanley Cup as our head coach. You know, people say the typical yinzer response is to fire the coach and we're just typical Pittsburgh fans, but Bylsma is so overrated it's not even funny.

Part of the reason why we lost is because we're without Letang, we're a different team when he's not in the lineup, but that still shouldn't be an excuse when you lose....no....get owned in back to back games against a team you are neck and neck with in the division, to prove that Dan Bylsma doesn't know how to make adjustments.

He's overrated, he won the Cup with Therrien's system in place, he can be credited for bringing positive attitude and energy to that team in 2009, but that can only get you so far, this team needs a defensive system in place, and will have no success until that happens.
I wholeheartedly agree with both of you. Perhaps we can TRADE Disco Dan at the draft...since his reputation does seem to be sterling across the board around the league.

That would really be a coup.

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02-11-2013, 03:25 PM
  #46
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Originally Posted by Sloppy Joe View Post
Let's play the what if game. Let's say Byslma gets the rest of this year baring something terrible happening. If the Penguins get bounced in the first or second round this year, what do you think would happen? Would the Pens fire him? Would you want him gone in that situation?
No. Is Bylsma on the ice, coasting around? Is he in net allowing all those soft goals? Cutting the head off a cancerous body does not cure the cancer. I don't blame him for this roster. I do blame him for not playing his best players "the most". Shero still has some influence on that IMO. There is only 1/30 teams that aren't disappointed every year with the results.

Bylsma is still growing as a young coach. There will be pains and lessons he needs to learn. I would be cleaning house on some of the coaching assistants though. Meloche-gone for sure, the bald defensive guy-maybe, Granato-maybe.

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02-11-2013, 03:38 PM
  #47
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Just out of curiosity, did anyone ever think that maybe, just maybe, sometimes when we lose that somebody doesn't have to get the blame, but instead that the other team should get some credit?

Everyone is freaking out again over 2 losses to the Devils, as if we are the only team having a hard time beating them right now. This just in, the Devils are 8-1-3....That's pretty good. So it's not as if the rest of the league has figured out something that our coaches are just too dumb to get. In fact, we were the only team to beat them so far this year in regulation.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "they were the better team tonight". All of the guys on the other teams we play are getting paychecks too. As stated very truthfully in a previous post "29 teams are disappointed at the end of each year".

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02-11-2013, 03:45 PM
  #48
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Just out of curiosity, did anyone ever think that maybe, just maybe, sometimes when we lose that somebody doesn't have to get the blame, but instead that the other team should get some credit?

Everyone is freaking out again over 2 losses to the Devils, as if we are the only team having a hard time beating them right now. This just in, the Devils are 8-1-3....That's pretty good. So it's not as if the rest of the league has figured out something that our coaches are just too dumb to get. In fact, we were the only team to beat them so far this year in regulation.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "they were the better team tonight". All of the guys on the other teams we play are getting paychecks too. As stated very truthfully in a previous post "29 teams are disappointed at the end of each year".
When a team drafts two generational talents, it's mostly a GREAT thing. But one of the negatives to having Sidney Crosby AND Evgeni Malkin on the same team is the (at times) unrealistic expectations that come with it. We're all guilty of having them, and quite frankly it's a by-product of the team that we've built.

In Pittsburgh, there's no "still growing as a coach", as wgknestrick put it. There's no "they were the better team", either. This is Sidney Crosby and Evgeni Malkin's team. These are the New York Yankees of the NHL. If this coach doesn't get it done, you move onto someone else who can. This team doesn't have the time to develop the next Barry Trotz or Lindy Ruff. This isn't Nashville or Buffalo. This team must win, or else there will be changes.

Is it fair? It doesn't matter. We're the Penguins. Crosby's Penguins. Malkin's Penguins. No excuses, just results. That's how it is until the generational talents leave.

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02-11-2013, 03:49 PM
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Well, we played against a WIDE-open style in Philadelphia last spring and got our ***** handed to us. We played an ultra-passive squad in Montreal in 2010 and lost embarassingly in 7. And we held a 3-1 win without our two superstars and choked it away.

I don't think the style of team matters. What matters is if there is ANY coach in the league that Disco can out-coach for 4-7 games. I don't think we've seen it happen yet.
We actually lost control emotionally against Philly. Another problem entirely. Were baited like Malkin can be, but this time it was the entire team. That is not the norm. The system works against most teams, and especially in the regular season. You can not argue with 100 plus points year after year. But against teams that run some form of the trap like the Devils, and especially in the playoffs when the teams play a much less wide open game the flaws emerge. Again, the losses over and over the same way in recent years also speak for themselves.

My only objection to Bylsma is that he is either too stubborn or incapable of adjusting to counter the systems that his system fails against. In prior years the Devils for instance did not have a very good record so most other teams figured out how to counter what they do. I can not imagine our talent is incapable of making the adjustment. So I can not see how it can be on anyone but Bylsma.

What do I want? Him to be fired? No. I just want him to adjust his system to fit these games like most of the rest of the NHL has done.

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02-11-2013, 03:54 PM
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We actually lost control emotionally against Philly. Another problem entirely. Were baited like Malkin can be, but this time it was the entire team. That is not the norm. The system works against most teams, and especially in the regular season. You can not argue with 100 plus points year after year. But against teams that run some form of the trap like the Devils, and especially in the playoffs when the teams play a much less wide open game the flaws emerge. Again, the losses over and over the same way in recent years also speak for themselves.
You most certainly can argue against 100-plus points year after year. The San Jose Sharks get that, too. Years ago, when Chris Pronger was captain, the St. Louis Blues were always 100-plus points. None of that matters if you can't get to the Finals, and then win it all.

We did it once. But expectations are what they are. We need more results in the postseason. Or else.

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