HFBoards

Go Back   HFBoards > General Hockey Discussion > National Hockey League Talk > Polls - (hockey-related only)
Mobile Hockey's Future Become a Sponsor Site Rules Support Forum vBookie Page 2

Where will the Sedins rank among all-time Swedish players?

View Poll Results: Where will the Sedins finish among Swedish Forwards?
#1/#2 2 0.99%
#2/#3 3 1.49%
Both Top 5 58 28.71%
Both Top 10 116 57.43%
Not Top 10 23 11.39%
Voters: 202. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old
02-15-2013, 07:22 PM
  #101
Art of Sedinery
Registered User
 
Art of Sedinery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by SensFanDan View Post
Rounding out the top 10. I direct those interested in this topic to the History of Hockey forum, a Swedish pub listed their all-time Top 10 Swedish hockeyers and not sure the Sedins even figured on it (think it was Hockeyespressen).

HOH board came up with this:

1. Nicklas Lidstrom - 73.68%
2. Peter Forsberg - 73.08%
3. Borje Salming - 61.90%
4. Mats Sundin - 61.02%
5. Sven Tumba - 45.45%
6. Henrik Lundqvist - 40.35%
7. Daniel Alfredsson - 57.69%
8. Henrik Zetterberg - 43.18%
9. Henrik Sedin - 52.78%
10. Markus Naslund - 31.43%
11. Daniel Sedin - 43.90%
12. Lennart Svedberg - 25.00%
13. Mats Naslund - 29.27%
14. Hakan Loob - 43.48%
15. Ulf Samuelsson - 43.33%
16. Kent Nilsson - 70.00%
17. Lars-Erik Sjoberg - 18.52%
18. Anders Hedberg - 34.29%
19. Ulf Nilsson - 40.74%

Would be hard to place the Sedins above giants like Sundin, Forsberg, Salming, Lidstrom et al. Could probably put hem in the 8-15 spot, at leat one of them, assuming you aren't Voltroning them into one entity.
Not sure what logic there is for Zetterberg ahead of them when they played in pretty much the exact same timeframe. The Sedins have outscored him in total points and in each of the last 5 seasons, and have major awards to their names.

Art of Sedinery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 07:25 PM
  #102
Art of Sedinery
Registered User
 
Art of Sedinery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Godless Servant View Post
Firstly I'm not American and though I might have an opinion on the top 10 U.S.A. born players of all time, my opinion in the end doesn't matter because it's about what the American people feel is their best. Only an American would have the audacity to determine what factors another country should consider when weighing their all time home grown greats.

2nd No one is saying Lidstrom isn't great but to the Swedish hockey fans Forsberg is god. I don't care who won more Stanley Cups or personal trophies, it's about who the Swede's love more and though I can't speak for them, I have read numerous things pointing out how ridiculously adored Forsberg is.
No, that is not the original point of my poll.

Just like it isn't about who hockey fans love more, Mario or Wayne. It's about who was better.

Art of Sedinery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 08:29 PM
  #103
Ferros
Registered User
 
Ferros's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Country: Sweden
Posts: 393
vCash: 500
I think it depends on who you ask. If you ask a Swedish person I'd say somewhere around top10 at best. All of:

Lidström
Forsberg
Sundin
Zetterberg
Alfredsson
Lundqvist

Will for sure be ranked higher by a Swedish person and those are just the "modern" players that will be ranked ahead of them. Actually when I think about it I don't think they will be even top15 if you go back in time, they just aren't that "big" in Sweden. I think it has a lot to do with that they're playing for Vancouver (No one stays up to 4 in the night to watch hockey) and that they haven't had much success with the national team either.

Ferros is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 08:37 PM
  #104
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Not sure what logic there is for Zetterberg ahead of them when they played in pretty much the exact same timeframe. The Sedins have outscored him in total points and in each of the last 5 seasons, and have major awards to their names.
Excuse me Zetts has this trophy called the Conn Smythe and his 2 worst seasons are 44 and 43 (in 61 games) points both of which are better than Hank and Daniel's 1st 3 years in the league.

Throw in Zett's complete 200 foot game and he is easily ahead of both Sedins on this list.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 08:43 PM
  #105
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
If they took ES scoring into account then Henrik would've won by a wider margin. He had 10 and 11 points up on Ovechkin and Crosby, respectively. As a matter of fact, Henrik was tied for #19 in PPP scoring.
I seriously doubt that ES scoring comes into play, if anything goal scoring has been more of a factor over time. We don't know how much influence the Canucks promotion of the "guys in the east always ignore us in the West" had on the voters either.

Quote:
The notion that Henrik fed off the Power Play on his way to the Hart is flat out fictitious. And he didn't even figure in the top 30 for offensive zone starts.
I certainly never indicated that he fed off the PP and while maybe he didn't figure into the top 30 for offensive zone starts that sure has changed.

See this article written by Vancouver writer and self professed Sedin fan Jonathan Willis in April of 2011, when Daniel was being plugged for a Hart run.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/0...s-zone-starts/

In 2010 when Hank won the Hart Daniel was 22nd in offensive zone starts for players with 20 or more GP

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66

notice how few of the guys above him are top scoring players as well.

this is where Hank ranked and both lists are for 5-5

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66


Last edited by Hardyvan123: 02-15-2013 at 08:54 PM.
Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 08:59 PM
  #106
Milan the God*
king karlsson
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Canada
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,958
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Alfredsson had 14 goals.

You are also comparing a primary goal scorer to a primary passer and a balanced shooter/passer in Daniel.

Henrik - 22 points
Alfie - 22 points
Daniel - 20 points

Hard to see too much of a difference.
How is Alfredsson a "primary goal scorer" while Daniel Sedin is called a "balanced shooter/passer"? Alfie is pretty balanced, but I've always found him to be a better passer.

Also, goals are more valuable than assists.

Milan the God* is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 09:01 PM
  #107
Virtanen2Horvat
Radim Vrbata #17
 
Virtanen2Horvat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 6,723
vCash: 647
Well I would say top 5 because Henrik is one point away from tieing Naslund. Naslund and the Twins top 5

Virtanen2Horvat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 09:06 PM
  #108
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Milan the Great View Post
How is Alfredsson a "primary goal scorer" while Daniel Sedin is called a "balanced shooter/passer"? Alfie is pretty balanced, but I've always found him to be a better passer.

Also, goals are more valuable than assists.
419-671-1090 looks alot like 282-446-728

38.44% of points in goals to 38.73 and one guy is a primary scorer while the other is more balanced?

the OP here is another one of those "don't let the facts get in the way of his opinion" guys.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 11:50 PM
  #109
serge2k
Registered User
 
serge2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Excuse me Zetts has this trophy called the Conn Smythe and his 2 worst seasons are 44 and 43 (in 61 games) points both of which are better than Hank and Daniel's 1st 3 years in the league.

Throw in Zett's complete 200 foot game and he is easily ahead of both Sedins on this list.
Shame henrik has never won any major NHL awards or anything like that.

serge2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-15-2013, 11:56 PM
  #110
Kershaw
 
Kershaw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Country:
Posts: 25,519
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan View Post
I am curious to know your reasons why you have Lundqvist ahead of the Sedins.
Best Swedish goalie of all time. Best goalie of this generation. International stage performer. SEL Champion, SEL MVP.

Kershaw is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 12:00 AM
  #111
Evincar
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksrool View Post
Well I would say top 5 because Henrik is one point away from tieing Naslund. Naslund and the Twins top 5
Naslund top 5?

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 12:01 AM
  #112
DJOpus
Registered User
 
DJOpus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 4,803
vCash: 500
I'd say they are behind Lidstrom, Forsberg, and Lundqvist when they retire. Ahead of Sundin and Alfreson. At no point could you make a reasonable argument for Alfredson or Sundin for Hart or Lindsay and since the Sedins have each won one of those + an Art Ross I'd put them ahead.

I also believe that Karlsson will be ahead of the Sedins when he's done.

Keep in mind that I value peaks a lot more then a lot of people though and would rank Lindros ahead of Sundin for that reason.

DJOpus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 12:39 AM
  #113
Evincar
HFBoards Sponsor
 
Evincar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,438
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJOpus View Post
I'd say they are behind Lidstrom, Forsberg, and Lundqvist when they retire. Ahead of Sundin and Alfreson. At no point could you make a reasonable argument for Alfredson or Sundin for Hart or Lindsay and since the Sedins have each won one of those + an Art Ross I'd put them ahead.

I also believe that Karlsson will be ahead of the Sedins when he's done.

Keep in mind that I value peaks a lot more then a lot of people though and would rank Lindros ahead of Sundin for that reason.
Best point finishes

Daniel: 1, 12, 14, 20 , 28 , 47
Henrik: 1, 4 , 8 ,15, 26, 41
Alfredsson: 5, 8, 9, 15, 18, 19
Sundin: 4, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15

I value peak a lot but not in this case. Sundin and Alfie were better for longer and neither had a clone of themselves playing beside them since they were kids.

Evincar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 01:30 AM
  #114
serge2k
Registered User
 
serge2k's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,411
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Best point finishes

Daniel: 1, 12, 14, 20 , 28 , 47
Henrik: 1, 4 , 8 ,15, 26, 41
Alfredsson: 5, 8, 9, 15, 18, 19
Sundin: 4, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15

I value peak a lot but not in this case. Sundin and Alfie were better for longer and neither had a clone of themselves playing beside them since they were kids.
No, alfredsson just had Heatley, Spezza, Havlat, hossa, Chara, Redden, etc...

use the linemate argument with Sundin, perahps, but Alfredsson had his best years on a team loaded with talent.

serge2k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 02:14 AM
  #115
Art of Sedinery
Registered User
 
Art of Sedinery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
Excuse me Zetts has this trophy called the Conn Smythe and his 2 worst seasons are 44 and 43 (in 61 games) points both of which are better than Hank and Daniel's 1st 3 years in the league.

Throw in Zett's complete 200 foot game and he is easily ahead of both Sedins on this list.
Notice how I said award"s". Plural.

As for the last line, the Sedins offensive peak is easily ahead of Zetterberg's. I guess it comes down to what you value most. And since this is HF, 2-way forwards are gods.

Has Zetterberg even ever been the best player on his team? If he was, it wasn't until Lidstrom retired before this season, a season in which they are struggling.

Art of Sedinery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 02:17 AM
  #116
Art of Sedinery
Registered User
 
Art of Sedinery's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 5,803
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
419-671-1090 looks alot like 282-446-728

38.44% of points in goals to 38.73 and one guy is a primary scorer while the other is more balanced?

the OP here is another one of those "don't let the facts get in the way of his opinion" guys.
You must be another one of those "your perception better not be off by one iota or else you aren't allowed to have an opinion" guys.

Art of Sedinery is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:00 AM
  #117
JAS 39 Gripen
Registered User
 
JAS 39 Gripen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,321
vCash: 500
Forsberg, Lids, Alfie, Sundin, Nilsson, Lundqvist, Zetterberg, Salming, EK (eventaully) bla bla


Just outside of the top 10

JAS 39 Gripen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:03 AM
  #118
LiveeviL
No unique points
 
LiveeviL's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Jämtland, Sweden
Country: Sweden
Posts: 5,618
vCash: 50
Send a message via ICQ to LiveeviL
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAS 39 Gripen View Post
Forsberg, Lids, Alfie, Sundin, Nilsson, Lundqvist, Zetterberg, Salming, EK (eventaully) bla bla


Just outside of the top 10
Damn, that deking "bla bla" guy took their place.

Basically you say that they are within top 10, not outside.

LiveeviL is online now   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:15 AM
  #119
Sergei Shirokov
Registered User
 
Sergei Shirokov's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: British Columbia
Country: Canada
Posts: 8,167
vCash: 500
The Sedins are so under appreciated it is unreal.

Sergei Shirokov is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:08 PM
  #120
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by serge2k View Post
Shame henrik has never won any major NHL awards or anything like that.
Did you not see the quote I was replying to which mentioned Hank's award but not Zett's?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:20 PM
  #121
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art of Sedinery View Post
Notice how I said award"s". Plural.
Both 2nd awards came during the same season so it's a bit like double counting here don't you think?

Quote:
As for the last line, the Sedins offensive peak is easily ahead of Zetterberg's. I guess it comes down to what you value most. And since this is HF, 2-way forwards are gods.
Well the point of real hockey is winning games right? Zetts 200 foot game and his peak top both Sedins in that reguard. and while we are at it we are talking careers, the Sedins peak and the rest of their career is quite different.

Litework in his post puts it into perspective

Originally Posted by Litework View Post
Best point finishes

Daniel: 1, 12, 14, 20 , 28 , 47
Henrik: 1, 4 , 8 ,15, 26, 41
Alfredsson: 5, 8, 9, 15, 18, 19
Sundin: 4, 7, 11, 12, 13, 15

Zetts has a 6, 8 and i bet if you add his next best 4 finishes the aggregate will be as good as both sedins.


Quote:
Has Zetterberg even ever been the best player on his team? If he was, it wasn't until Lidstrom retired before this season, a season in which they are struggling.
what does that have to do with anything, so Zetts plays with HHOF locks and another stud named dats, who no doubt is worse than both Sedins right?

Sedins have their value in fantasy hockey circles, much less so in the real world. The record is pretty clear on this.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:38 PM
  #122
VinnyC
vancity, c-bus, 'peg
 
VinnyC's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: 新香
Country: Canada
Posts: 10,888
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I seriously doubt that ES scoring comes into play, if anything goal scoring has been more of a factor over time. We don't know how much influence the Canucks promotion of the "guys in the east always ignore us in the West" had on the voters either.
Probably not much, but I pointed the fact out since you hinted that Henrik might not have won the Hart if they considered ES play, when in terms of scoring he was a level head of everyone else.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardyvan123 View Post
I certainly never indicated that he fed off the PP and while maybe he didn't figure into the top 30 for offensive zone starts that sure has changed.

See this article written by Vancouver writer and self professed Sedin fan Jonathan Willis in April of 2011, when Daniel was being plugged for a Hart run.

http://blogs.thescore.com/nhl/2011/0...s-zone-starts/

In 2010 when Hank won the Hart Daniel was 22nd in offensive zone starts for players with 20 or more GP

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66

notice how few of the guys above him are top scoring players as well.

this is where Hank ranked and both lists are for 5-5

http://www.behindthenet.ca/nhl_stati...61+62+64+65+66
I'm not talking about 2010-11 so I'm not sure how that figured into the conversation. I'm contesting your claim that mere variation in voting takes worth away from Henrik's Hart.

Offensive stars who got more zone starts than Henrik include Hossa, Toews, Kane, Sharp, Gaborik, Malkin, Backstrom... plus, relative to the other two Hart candidates, zone starts is hardly relevant. Why? Henrik had 57%, Crosby had 56% and Ovechkin had 55%.

VinnyC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:47 PM
  #123
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sergei Shirokov View Post
The Sedins are so under appreciated it is unreal.
Maybe you could elaborate?

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 03:56 PM
  #124
Hardyvan123
tweet@HardyintheWack
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Vancouver
Country: Canada
Posts: 13,073
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by VinnyC View Post
Probably not much, but I pointed the fact out since you hinted that Henrik might not have won the Hart if they considered ES play, when in terms of scoring he was a level head of everyone else.
You must be confusing me with someone else, I didn't bring up ES or PP stats referring to the Sedins at all.



Quote:
I'm not talking about 2010-11 so I'm not sure how that figured into the conversation. I'm contesting your claim that mere variation in voting takes worth away from Henrik's Hart.
Variation matters here as part of the overall perspective. Some people are making out the fact of Hank having a Hart while others do not, like it matters more than it really does here. It's like cup or Hart counting, without context some people can make too big of a deal about it.

Quote:
Offensive stars who got more zone starts than Henrik include Hossa, Toews, Kane, Sharp, Gaborik, Malkin, Backstrom... plus, relative to the other two Hart candidates, zone starts is hardly relevant. Why? Henrik had 57%, Crosby had 56% and Ovechkin had 55%.
The offensive zone starts wasn't brought up by me but now that you mention it, it is relevant to both Sedins in the last 2 years where their production has dropped despite more favorable offensive zone starts.

At the end of the day their 1st 3 seasons in the NHL and their lack of individual success internationally is what keeps them out of the top 10 IMO. Their peak was short and fleeting and meant more in fantasy hockey circles than in real life NHL terms.

Hardyvan123 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old
02-16-2013, 06:09 PM
  #125
Grammar Butcher
Registered User
 
Grammar Butcher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Stockholm
Country: Sweden
Posts: 1,045
vCash: 500
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ferros View Post
I think it has a lot to do with that they're playing for Vancouver (No one stays up to 4 in the night to watch hockey) and that they haven't had much success with the national team either.
Spot on.
They also collapsed with MoDo in two straight finals before they went over - Especially in the first one against Brynäs when they had the series and led in game 4 with 4-1 and later on 5-4 with 3 min left, which ended in a 5-6 loss and then a loss on home-soil in game 5 (they led the series with 2-1 - first to 3 back then)

Lidas
Foppa
BJ
Sudden
Alfie
Around here I probably would put them along with Z & Lunkan

So top-10 at least.

Grammar Butcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Forum Jump


Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:27 AM.

monitoring_string = "e4251c93e2ba248d29da988d93bf5144"
Contact Us - HFBoards - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Use - Advertise - Top - AdChoices

vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
HFBoards.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.