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Old
03-11-2013, 03:50 PM
  #201
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Really? It seems to me that the successful season is the anomaly, and one that is more easily explained. We bring in an outside goaltender that goes on a ridiculous tear, and we have a novel defensive system that initially confuses people. Now? That system has been figured out, that goaltender fell back down to earth, and we're now playing like ass. Last year we thought was a bump in the road on the way to perennial contender... turns out the first season of him here was the anomaly.

I'm done with Boucher.
Training camp was a joke. The schedule is as tight as it gets. Once you hit a slump you're in it and as soon you recover from it the season is already over.

Remember the Devils' comeback a couple of years ago? Or the Flyers'? Won't be possible this season.

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03-11-2013, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
Training camp was a joke. The schedule is as tight as it gets. Once you hit a slump you're in it and as soon you recover from it the season is already over.

Remember the Devils' comeback a couple of years ago? Or the Flyers'? Won't be possible this season.
True, it's a compressed season. It's a compressed season for 30 teams, not just the Lightning. And it's not like this performance is an anomaly. We were on Stamkos for 60 watch at the midway point last season. We were sellers at the deadline last season. We're on Stamkos for (40?) watch this season at the midway point. We are going to be sellers at the deadline this season. Nothing has changed.

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03-11-2013, 04:05 PM
  #203
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
True, it's a compressed season. It's a compressed season for 30 teams, not just the Lightning. And it's not like this performance is an anomaly. We were on Stamkos for 60 watch at the midway point last season. We were sellers at the deadline last season. We're on Stamkos for (40?) watch this season at the midway point. We are going to be sellers at the deadline this season. Nothing has changed.
We're not the only good team (on paper) that is struggling so far: Philadelphia, Washington, Buffalo, Dallas, Nashville. I don't see them firing their coach after ~25 games.

All those teams - including us - need just a little win streak and they're right back in it.

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03-11-2013, 04:07 PM
  #204
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
We're not the only good team (on paper) that is struggling so far: Philadelphia, Washington, Buffalo, Dallas, Nashville. I don't see them firing their coach after ~25 games.
Philly did well last year. Washington made the playoffs. Buffalo did fire their coach. Dallas isn't that good on paper, and Nashville is a perennial playoff team.

We had one good season, followed by one (now two) bad ones.

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03-11-2013, 04:19 PM
  #205
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Really? It seems to me that the successful season is the anomaly, and one that is more easily explained. We bring in an outside goaltender that goes on a ridiculous tear, and we have a novel defensive system that initially confuses people. Now? That system has been figured out, that goaltender fell back down to earth, and we're now playing like ass. Last year we thought was a bump in the road on the way to perennial contender... turns out the first season of him here was the anomaly.

I'm done with Boucher.
Agree with this. There really is nothing to suggest 2011 was what we should expect with Boucher's system from here on out - and again if you have to have the absolute perfect player in every roster spot for this system of his to be effective, that should indicate it is the system that is the problem, not the roster. The roster has been updated, same results as last year. This system is showing itself to be disadvantageous to defensemen and goaltenders - can bring in the best at each position and it appears those players would struggle. You have to ice an all-star team for the system to show consistent results? That's not realistic, nor does it give credence to the system being suitable.

Boucher had only 1 season in the AHL with a pretty good prospect pool of players - he deserves credit for winning coach of the year. However, he hasn't been able to show reproducibility yet - not in the AHL (since he was only there 1 year) and not at the NHL level. There really is no evidence that his system works at a pro-level.

Cooper, on the other hand, has shown he can reproduce results at both the NAHL and AHL levels, with an inferior prospect pool at the beginning of his coaching career with the Lightning. Look at how the prospects play when called up. Everyone is looking forward to seeing Barbario or Gudas called up - actually worried that their game will be affected by Boucher's staff's influence, particularly in the physicality department (with Gudas at least).

So between Boucher and Cooper? IMO, it is pretty evident Cooper is the better choice. Tampa loses Cooper and the future suffers much more, than if they close the door on Boucher.

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03-11-2013, 04:20 PM
  #206
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
Philly did well last year. Washington made the playoffs. Buffalo did fire their coach. Dallas isn't that good on paper, and Nashville is a perennial playoff team.

We had one good season, followed by one (now two) bad ones.
LOL, how could I forget about Lindy Ruff... my bad.

But my point was, all those teams look legit on paper (solid group of forwards, defense and goalies) and yet they're out of playoffs as of now.

Nashville has made the playoffs 3 years in a row, BTW.

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03-11-2013, 04:26 PM
  #207
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Agree with this. There really is nothing to suggest 2011 was what we should expect with Boucher's system from here on out - and again if you have to have the absolute perfect player in every roster spot for this system of his to be effective, that should indicate it is the system that is the problem, not the roster. The roster has been updated, same results as last year. This system is showing itself to be disadvantageous to defensemen and goaltenders - can bring in the best at each position and it appears those players would struggle. You have to ice an all-star team for the system to show consistent results? That's not realistic, nor does it give credence to the system being suitable.

Boucher had only 1 season in the AHL with a pretty good prospect pool of players - he deserves credit for winning coach of the year. However, he hasn't been able to show reproducibility yet - not in the AHL (since he was only there 1 year) and not at the NHL level. There really is no evidence that his system works at a pro-level.

Cooper, on the other hand, has shown he can reproduce results at both the NAHL and AHL levels, with an inferior prospect pool at the beginning of his coaching career with the Lightning. Look at how the prospects play when called up. Everyone is looking forward to seeing Barbario or Gudas called up - actually worried that their game will be affected by Boucher's staff's influence, particularly in the physicality department (with Gudas at least).

So between Boucher and Cooper? IMO, it is pretty evident Cooper is the better choice. Tampa loses Cooper and the future suffers much more, than if they close the door on Boucher.
I don't follow you. So Boucher is not a good coach because he couldn't reproduce his success in the AHL because he was so good that he got offered a job in the NHL?

Or is he not a good coach because he was only successful in the AHL because of his team's "pretty good player pool"?

Did the 2011-12 Norfolk Admirals not have a "pretty good player pool"? Don't the 2012-13 Syracuse Crunch?

Also, if Boucher only was so successful because of those good players in the AHL, this probably means the Lightning's players aren't as good as we thought and Boucher is not to blame after all.

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03-11-2013, 04:29 PM
  #208
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
It's probably Boucher's (and Yzerman's) concept of "easing them in".
That must be it, but the guy shovelling up the slush after the Zamboni leaves the ice is getting my TOI !!! Not like the veterans aren't constantly coughing up the puck.

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03-11-2013, 04:31 PM
  #209
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
LOL, how could I forget about Lindy Ruff... my bad.

But my point was, all those teams look legit on paper (solid group of forwards, defense and goalies) and yet they're out of playoffs as of now.

Nashville has made the playoffs 3 years in a row, BTW.
Nashville is 2 points out of a playoff spot after having some pretty significant turnover in the offseason. Same with the Stars. Washington... I don't really see them as a strong team what with no forward depth, weak D and young goaltending, so their fall to earth has been awhile coming (especially with their star player becoming a grinder). Philly is 3 points out having been hit by the injury bug worse than almost any other team in the league.

What is the Lightning's excuse? Only player that has missed significant time is Ryan Malone, who hasn't been playing well anyway. Our superstar player is on pace to win the Rocket and come in second in the points race again, with another player right behind him. What's the excuse? A short season? A lot of back to backs? That's everyone.

No, our excuse is a ****** coaching staff. We find ways to lose. And this isn't new. This is the same **** as last year. And honestly, we **** the bed pretty badly the year before, making the playoffs with a negative goal differential. It's just the goaltender got hot and our "system" was good at protecting small leads since no one knew how to attack it. Guess what, they're attacking it now. And holding a lead? We're 4-13-1 after our 6-1-0 start. Yeah, don't think holding a lead has really been good.

Honestly, I don't get how anyone CAN defend Boucher anymore. It's clear he doesn't have control of the team and his gameplan is awful. If he's not fired after this season, be prepared for another top 10 pick in 2014, to go along with some nice excuses and some nice quotes about "trusting the process".

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03-11-2013, 04:31 PM
  #210
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
We're not the only good team (on paper) that is struggling so far: Philadelphia, Washington, Buffalo, Dallas, Nashville. I don't see them firing their coach after ~25 games.

All those teams - including us - need just a little win streak and they're right back in it.
Phili has been devastated by injuries to several positions. Washington has a brand new head coach with no training camp and a bit of a roster turnover. Buffalo did fire their coach. Dallas isn't really that good imo, Lehtonen makes them look better than they really are. Nashville has gotten worse from last season losing Suter, no rookie is able to replace him quite yet.

In comparison to those teams:
We haven't had several major injuries at the same time yet
We don't have a new coach, but we do have a bit of roster turnover
Our roster has improved on paper each year

I was all aboard the Boucher bandwagon after last year, but I'm done making excuses. He claims there are fixable problems with the culture of the team yet he has yet to fix them. Why hasn't he fixed these problems?

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03-11-2013, 04:32 PM
  #211
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
I don't follow you. So Boucher is not a good coach because he couldn't reproduce his success in the AHL because he was so good that he got offered a job in the NHL?

Or is he not a good coach because he was only successful in the AHL because of his team's "pretty good player pool"?

Did the 2011-12 Norfolk Admirals not have a "pretty good player pool"? Don't the 2012-13 Syracuse Crunch?

Also, if Boucher only was so successful because of those good players in the AHL, this probably means the Lightning's players aren't as good as we thought and Boucher is not to blame after all.
He's saying he had one good year and never replicated the results with the same competition. Don't be deliberately dense please. If you have arguments as to why Boucher should stay, I'd love to hear them.

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03-11-2013, 04:37 PM
  #212
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My opinion on Boucher is the guys panic and can't hold a lead due to lack of continuity. This guy over coaches !! He is way too quick moving lines and players around at the first hint of trouble. He is panicing and overeacting and wonders why the players are ???? I also think people are getting carried away Cooper. I think he will be a good NHL coach but he is not the SAVIOR a lot are making him out to be. Not to long ago Boucher was the savior. I would prefer a veteran coach that is good with young players to be the next coach, or Cooper with a experienced staff to help him.

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03-11-2013, 04:40 PM
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Plus I think we're all forgetting the old saying "the team takes on the personality of their head coach". I think that says everything we need to know about Boucher

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03-11-2013, 04:54 PM
  #214
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Originally Posted by LightningStrikes View Post
I don't follow you. So Boucher is not a good coach because he couldn't reproduce his success in the AHL because he was so good that he got offered a job in the NHL?

Or is he not a good coach because he was only successful in the AHL because of his team's "pretty good player pool"?

Did the 2011-12 Norfolk Admirals not have a "pretty good player pool"? Don't the 2012-13 Syracuse Crunch?

Also, if Boucher only was so successful because of those good players in the AHL, this probably means the Lightning's players aren't as good as we thought and Boucher is not to blame after all.
Yes, he got offered an NHL job straight away after his 1 season in the AHL; however that isn't proof that his system is effective at the pro-level or will be with the "right" players. Boucher seems like a good guy, might even develop into a great NHL coach - just do not see how he can be considered a good NHL coach at this particular time with the results we have to this point.

The prospect pool of the Lightning has been getting better the past couple of years, but that hasn't been a strong point of the Lightning organization. IMO the teams under Cooper have overachieved, he is making those players better and making it so they believe in a winning culture.

The roster Boucher has right now is pretty talented (he already had a pretty good top 6 when he arrived here, the defense has been upgraded this year), for the team to be struggling like it is. Goaltending is shaky, perhaps because the system is an issue. Defensemen come to Tampa and look shaky, perhaps because the issue is the system. The PP looks dysfunctional, even though that is Boucher's pet project.

Again see no evidence why Boucher should be considered a success at the pro level yet. Maybe he will be, although he will have to adapt his system IMO. Is giving Cooper an NHL coaching opportunity a risk? Sure, but no more than keeping Boucher behind the bench.

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03-11-2013, 04:56 PM
  #215
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Originally Posted by Pronounced Anders View Post
True, it's a compressed season. It's a compressed season for 30 teams, not just the Lightning. And it's not like this performance is an anomaly. We were on Stamkos for 60 watch at the midway point last season. We were sellers at the deadline last season. We're on Stamkos for (40?) watch this season at the midway point. We are going to be sellers at the deadline this season. Nothing has changed.
*Disclaimer-the following is not to be taken as me advocating that Steve Yzerman be fired! I think he's doing fine as GM and want him to stay here for a long time.

Were all of last season's problems Guy Boucher? Funny, because outside of few people, all the talking heads were saying the issues were with Yzerman. The team was shedding players to the trade wire while Lightning players still firmly believed they were in the playoff hunt. The goaltending was more than shaky and the defense was bad and old. Was it not incumbent upon Yzerman to see these deficiencies and fix them earlier? Did he correct them? Is Lindback the answer in goal (I think so, but not yet)? Is Carle really a 2nd pairing d-man (holy **** no!)? Did the Bolts not have tons of devastating injuries last season?

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03-11-2013, 05:05 PM
  #216
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Just throwing this out there, but the success of the new guys has been chalked up to Syracuse playing the same system.

They could bring Cooper up as an assistant, which would both keep him from other NHL teams and give him NHL experience.

Then if Boucher fails, Cooper takes over, but I think subtext is pretty damn obvious and may become a distraction.


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03-12-2013, 09:20 AM
  #217
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He's saying he had one good year and never replicated the results with the same competition. Don't be deliberately dense please. If you have arguments as to why Boucher should stay, I'd love to hear them.
Yeah, but you can't hold that against Boucher. Are we seriously accusing him for taking a job offer in the NHL? People act as if Cooper is the solution. 100 per cent. People said the same thing about Boucher. But actually, we don't know. We can't know. And to say Boucher's success is a result of "getting lucky" because he "happened to coach a team consisting of good players" is ridiculous. Why can't it be the other way around? Or both?

As fans of the team, negative aspects will always stick out more to us. "Our PP sucks", well actually it's 8th in the league. "Our PK sucks, too" - it's 13th in the league. "We suck at faceoffs" - we're tied for 10th in the league. "We cough up the puck more often than anybody" - only 6 teams have less giveaways than us.

No team has lost so many games by just 1 goal. We're 1-9-1 in games with a 1-goal difference. And having watched most of the games, it mostly comes down to just a single mistake each game that eventually cost us the game. If only 4 of those 9 losses were OTLs we would be 10th in the East.

None of us are in the locker room. We don't know the real reasons for this. If it's the players, then it's ultimately on Yzerman. Boucher has to work with what he has. And remember last season when Yzerman gutted the team for picks? Downie gone, Moore gone, Kubina gone (he sucked but he ate a lot of minutes) and so on. But the team didn't fall off a cliff, they actually played pretty well. Boucher deserves some credit for that, too.

I'm not saying Boucher is not (partially) to blame. That 2 SOG in the 3rd showing against the Habs was a joke. But on other nights it's really just bad luck or a stupid mistake by a single player.

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03-12-2013, 10:16 AM
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I'm on my phone so my response will be brief but...

Our PP does suck. Take away the first 7 games and it's probably bottom or close to it. Our PK is fine... haven't heard anyone critique that. It's also not the number of giveaways, it's where they're given up (although that's an awful stat... no two arenas count it the same).

If you actually think one mistake per game is killing us, you're drinking the kool-aid. We have been outshot in almost every game. We have a weak forecheck and no backbone. No one is blaming Boucher for taking the job, they're just pointing out there is no consistency to his successes. He is still riding the wave of the ECF appearance. The fact is that performance has been an anomaly. That success has not been reproduced.

As for the gutting of the team last year... trading depth players for picks is not gutting. Our organization depth is the best it has ever been, which is why SFY gets a big pass and Boucher doesn't. SFY may end up failing here, but I am inclined to give a gm more rope than a coach, especially since we are clearly a talented team. I am not on the Cooper bandwagon, although I think he'll make a good coach. I just think that Boucher isn't as good as we thought, and it's time to stop making excuses, especially when the excuses are so clearly bad.

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03-12-2013, 10:21 AM
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Also, instead of hearing why it's not his fault, I want to know what Boucher is actually bringing to the table. Haven't heard that argument yet.

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03-12-2013, 10:36 AM
  #220
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThunderRoad View Post
Agree with this. There really is nothing to suggest 2011 was what we should expect with Boucher's system from here on out - and again if you have to have the absolute perfect player in every roster spot for this system of his to be effective, that should indicate it is the system that is the problem, not the roster. The roster has been updated, same results as last year. This system is showing itself to be disadvantageous to defensemen and goaltenders - can bring in the best at each position and it appears those players would struggle. You have to ice an all-star team for the system to show consistent results? That's not realistic, nor does it give credence to the system being suitable.

Boucher had only 1 season in the AHL with a pretty good prospect pool of players - he deserves credit for winning coach of the year. However, he hasn't been able to show reproducibility yet - not in the AHL (since he was only there 1 year) and not at the NHL level. There really is no evidence that his system works at a pro-level.

Cooper, on the other hand, has shown he can reproduce results at both the NAHL and AHL levels, with an inferior prospect pool at the beginning of his coaching career with the Lightning. Look at how the prospects play when called up. Everyone is looking forward to seeing Barbario or Gudas called up - actually worried that their game will be affected by Boucher's staff's influence, particularly in the physicality department (with Gudas at least).

So between Boucher and Cooper? IMO, it is pretty evident Cooper is the better choice. Tampa loses Cooper and the future suffers much more, than if they close the door on Boucher.
Whaaaaaaaaaat?

Cooper inherited a fairly stacked Norfolk team that was dabbling with the 8 seed in years prior, but needed a little more direction. To call the roster "inferior" is completely comical. Silly. Nonsense.

Furthermore, you're using a pretty weak argument in defense of Cooper, and in favor of firing Guy. Yes, I too can take a small sample size and say "well player X has played amazingly this year because of Cooper!", but it simply isn't true - its only a small cross-section of games which hardly establishes both the effort and talent level of the players.

I'm sure Cooper will fix everything. I mean, its not like Conacher hasn't fallen back to earth after his start, or is that Guys fault?

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03-12-2013, 10:48 AM
  #221
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How about this - lets go through what has worked during his tenure.

-Top 10 Offense
-PP success, even if streaky at times
-Took a roster of relative misfits to the ECF

That alone would afford patience from many, many teams. Now lets break down some of the shortcomings and see if we can find a pattern.

-Struggling goaltending
-Inconsistent Defensive Coverage
-Inconsistent Zone Exits
-Inconsistent Defensive Pinching
-Inconsistent efforts because of previously mentioned problems

Starting to see a pattern?

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03-12-2013, 10:57 AM
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You forgot two straight seasons of missing the playoffs.

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03-12-2013, 11:27 AM
  #223
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I dont know whether we should keep or fire him but I do agree that what he was able to do a couple years ago was awesome for his first season as HC. I can say that this roster isnt as experienced as that one was but it does have around maybe the same amount of talent. Maybe more so now. I dont think you could say that about our defense right now as the ECF team had a better D but not much better. I think if they were able to figure out the back end, got a little nastier back there and goaltending was ever consistent they would be a very tough team to beat. This roster just isnt that quite yet. I do have big hope for the future. I think SFY has done a phenominal job getting talent here. Its just time to put it together.

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03-12-2013, 12:39 PM
  #224
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[QUOTE=Still All In;61489535] Whaaaaaaaaaat?

Cooper inherited a fairly stacked Norfolk team that was dabbling with the 8 seed in years prior, but needed a little more direction. To call the roster "inferior" is completely comical. Silly. Nonsense.

Furthermore, you're using a pretty weak argument in defense of Cooper, and in favor of firing Guy. Yes, I too can take a small sample size and say "well player X has played amazingly this year because of Cooper!", but it simply isn't true - its only a small cross-section of games which hardly establishes both the effort and talent level of the players.

I'm sure Cooper will fix everything. I mean, its not like Conacher hasn't fallen back to earth after his start, or is that Guys fault?[/QUOTE]


Be as blatantly patronizing as you want to be - to each his own. The comparison is between Montreal's prospect pool and the Lightning's prospect pool and the status of the two affiliates. Tampa's has improved quite a bit the last few years but certainly has never been a strongsuit of the organization and the reason the Lightning struggled for so many years. The Admirals missed the playoffs the first 3 seasons affiliated with Tampa (which they pretty much made the playoffs every year prior and Norfolk had its doubts when it came to being associated with Tampa) - did come close in 09-10 but Cooper has had the Lightning affiliate in the playoffs since he arrived behind the bench (the best ever for a Tampa affiliate has been under Cooper). IMO the Montreal prospect pool was better and deeper than Tampa's before the last couple drafts with those players now coming into the AHL ranks. What Norfolk did last season was impressive - never done before. Cooper has Syracuse in first place overall the following year so far.

In the NAHL, Cooper's teams won the championship 2 out of 5 years with a rather impressive overall W-L record. He completely turned around a franchise in the USHL (both as coach and GM) to win 2 GM of the year awards and 1 coach of the year award in the span of 2 years (the worst team in that league prior to him getting there and turning them into a championship team). Then he moved on to the Tampa organization.

He has more head coaching experience than Guy. And yes, am completely aware that experience has not been at the NHL level, however again, I think the risk with Cooper at NHL level is no more than Guy at NHL level and IMO the future with this team's young stars is much brighter under Cooper. The sample size is necessarily small for both men in the Tampa organization but that is what exists. Oftentimes in statistics, that is what you have to work with due to cost constraints and time. The quality of the data you have can give a small sample size power. The players that have worked under Cooper that have been called up have played well - are they complete finished products? Not at all, they are still young and learning. However, what they have shown in a small time frame has been impressive - the potential that is there, the little aspects of their game that seem mature for their age and experience level. The work ethic and improvement of this team's young players under Cooper is there - that at least is fact. Definitely excited to see how this translates for Connolly after having been coached by Cooper. As for Conacher, he's playing just fine - it's not always what translates to points and I will believe that Cooper had a positive influence on Conacher that helped with his transition to the NHL game (as well as Cory's own work ethic and skill). There are many examples of players flourishing on teams coached by Cooper, including Barberio.

And yes it is possible that Guy is not as effective as a communicator/strategist as Jon, especially when it comes to handling these younger players. It is possible you see a more physical game played under Cooper's instruction than what isn't there under Guy's guidance (IMO Aulie is an example). It is possible this current Lightning team could benefit from Cooper. Guarantee? No - but this is sports where nothing ever is and where the shelf life and tolerances are shorter.

Would like to hear some actual explanations for why Cooper is a bigger risk than Boucher? Could exchanging the two be a complete wash? Maybe, although IMO that is unlikely due to the fact Yzerman has said he wanted to build this team through drafted players and yes, there is evidence they are flourishing under Cooper. Would the Lightning be worse? See absolutely no reason for this. Consequently, yes, bringing Cooper up just might be a turning point. In a perfect world, you can have both gentlemen working together behind the Tampa bench - unfortunately don't see that happening due to the opportunities Cooper will see.

There is a reason he is/will be highly sought after for head coaching jobs - and yes, IMO, he has a much sturdier, notable track record than Boucher when he was offered the Lightning coaching job.

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03-12-2013, 12:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Still All In View Post
How about this - lets go through what has worked during his tenure.

-Top 10 Offense
-PP success, even if streaky at times
-Took a roster of relative misfits to the ECF

That alone would afford patience from many, many teams. Now lets break down some of the shortcomings and see if we can find a pattern.

-Struggling goaltending
-Inconsistent Defensive Coverage
-Inconsistent Zone Exits
-Inconsistent Defensive Pinching
-Inconsistent efforts because of previously mentioned problems


Starting to see a pattern?
It is also a possibility that the instructions provided to the players(by the entire coaching staff) is why such shortcomings exist. That there might be a more overarching issue than just the roster and the effort level of said roster. That the gameplan needs adjustment. That the coaching staff should adapt accordingly.


Last edited by ThunderRoad: 03-12-2013 at 12:53 PM.
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