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The "soon-to-be" crowded blueline

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Old
02-19-2013, 02:17 AM
  #151
Rusty Shackleford
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Phaneuf-Holzer
Gardiner-Kostka
Franson-Fraser
Komisarek

I'm going to ****ing hate to see Gunnar go but he's definitely the most movable asset we currently have on our blueline.. I wouldn't be shocked if him and Liles are both gone.

I truthfully never thought there's any chance during all the lockout mumble jumble going on that when the season finally started I'd be extremely satisfied with a defence core that featured Holzer, Kostka and Fraser all logging minutes. The emergence of these three and Cody Franson has done wonders for this team.

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02-19-2013, 08:38 AM
  #152
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by WhatASaveDave View Post
Nonis just said on radio that he wants to continue awarding the marlies players and that he is happy with the play of kostka, holzer and Fraser. That means if we do move a defenseman, it probably won't be them
None of them are untouchable.

If they are considered equal, then the question becomes who is going to offer the most for one or two of them?

Just because Nonis says he wants to reward them doesn't mean he wouldn't trade them.

Saying they were expendable doesn't increase their value, mind you there isn't a GM out there who doesn't know roster limits.

TOI last night:

Phaneuf 22:53
Gunnarsson 21:52
Kostka 21:40
Holzer 19:09
Franson 18:02
Fraser 16:28

Going with this sort of distribution would keep Phaneuf fresh.

Gunnarsson had, by far, the most blocked shots for the Leafs last year. This year he hasn't done as well, but perhaps the injury was impacting his mobility.

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Vaive and Ludzik on collapse, and Phaneuf.
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Old
02-19-2013, 09:23 AM
  #153
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After last night's game that saw Gunnar return, we now know officially which dmen sit #7 and #8 on Leafs NHL depth chart and that doesn't include Gardiner in the equation while in the AHL.

The fact Carlyle prefers AHLers over our so called veteran big contract leaders speaks volumes to the change we are now seeing unfolding in Toronto.

Organizational patience is being truly demonstrated and the team is being rewarded for it on the ice because now jobs are being earned on merit of play and not entitlement of contract nor age nor experience.

Nonis has a spare couple vet dmen available, now how to unload them and who wants them is the next question needing answers.

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02-19-2013, 09:51 AM
  #154
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
None of them are untouchable.

If they are considered equal, then the question becomes who is going to offer the most for one or two of them?

Just because Nonis says he wants to reward them doesn't mean he wouldn't trade them.

Saying they were expendable doesn't increase their value, mind you there isn't a GM out there who doesn't know roster limits.

TOI last night:

Phaneuf 22:53
Gunnarsson 21:52
Kostka 21:40
Holzer 19:09
Franson 18:02
Fraser 16:28

Going with this sort of distribution would keep Phaneuf fresh.

Gunnarsson had, by far, the most blocked shots for the Leafs last year. This year he hasn't done as well, but perhaps the injury was impacting his mobility.
Or not playing with Phaneuf has hurt Gunnar this year.

Leafs are loaded up with D best suited to the left side in Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles with Rielly and possibly even Ranger most likely entering into the equation next year.

Gunnar is a due for a sizeable raise after this season. The time to trade one or both of Liles and Gunnar is this deadline. Teams overpay at the deadline far more often then they do at the draft.

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:55 AM
  #155
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
After last night's game that saw Gunnar return, we now know officially which dmen sit #7 and #8 on Leafs NHL depth chart and that doesn't include Gardiner in the equation while in the AHL.

The fact Carlyle prefers AHLers over our so called veteran big contract leaders speaks volumes to the change we are now seeing unfolding in Toronto.

Organizational patience is being truly demonstrated and the team is being rewarded for it on the ice because now jobs are being earned on merit of play and not entitlement of contract nor age nor experience.

Nonis has a spare couple vet dmen available, now how to unload them and who wants them is the next question needing answers.

Very well put. Exactly the situation. What a change from or recent, midling and distant past!!!

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Old
02-19-2013, 09:57 AM
  #156
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
Or not playing with Phaneuf has hurt Gunnar this year.

Leafs are loaded up with D best suited to the left side in Phaneuf, Gunnar, Gardiner, Liles with Rielly and possibly even Ranger most likely entering into the equation next year.

Gunnar is a due for a sizeable raise after this season. The time to trade one or both of Liles and Gunnar is this deadline. Teams overpay at the deadline far more often then they do at the draft.
The team knew Gunnarsson was injured so they might have been trying to nurse him along in the games not knowing how the AHL vets would fair. When they saw the results took Gunnarsson out of the line up to heal.

Blocked shots 2011-2012:

Gunnarsson 76 games - 152 blocked shots
Phaneuf 82 games - 127 blocked shots

I don't think the problems with the Leafs was due to this pairing last year.

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02-19-2013, 10:02 AM
  #157
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Our D is exactly what you saw last night. I wouldn't make a single change.

The vets are going to be healthy scratches until someone from last night's pairings gets injured.

Gardiner needs more time in the AHL. He's going to be a good player but he needs time in the A for experience and strengthening / conditioning.

The leafs' defensive depth is the pride of the GTA.


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Old
02-19-2013, 10:03 AM
  #158
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we cant keep them all
liles and komisarek age/salary would be the first ones out

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Old
02-19-2013, 10:55 AM
  #159
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
The team knew Gunnarsson was injured so they might have been trying to nurse him along in the games not knowing how the AHL vets would fair. When they saw the results took Gunnarsson out of the line up to heal.

Blocked shots 2011-2012:

Gunnarsson 76 games - 152 blocked shots
Phaneuf 82 games - 127 blocked shots

I don't think the problems with the Leafs was due to this pairing last year.
I don't think that pairing was the problem either.

My shot was more at people probably overvalued Gunnar because he looked better then he actually is last year because he got to play with Phaneuf last year. Just like Phaneuf has made Aulie, Kostka and now Holzer look to be better dmen than they actually are because Phaneuf allows his partners to play a very simplified game.

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02-19-2013, 11:05 AM
  #160
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Originally Posted by ULF_55 View Post
None of them are untouchable.

If they are considered equal, then the question becomes who is going to offer the most for one or two of them?

Just because Nonis says he wants to reward them doesn't mean he wouldn't trade them.

Saying they were expendable doesn't increase their value, mind you there isn't a GM out there who doesn't know roster limits.
The Leaf's D is great. There is no way Nonis trades any of them. They are (as a group) big, tough and talented, which makes them very difficult to play against. The only one that may be trade-bait is Gardiner, who appears unable to crack the line-up.

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02-19-2013, 11:12 AM
  #161
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
The Leaf's D is great. There is no way Nonis trades any of them. They are (as a group) big, tough and talented, which makes them very difficult to play against. The only one that may be trade-bait is Gardiner, who appears unable to crack the line-up.
More like he is the only one they can hide in the AHL.

After Phaneuf, Gardiner is the most valuable dman we have moving forward (not counting Rielly).

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:18 AM
  #162
Alflives
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Originally Posted by Ricky Bobby View Post
More like he is the only one they can hide in the AHL.

After Phaneuf, Gardiner is the most valuable dman we have moving forward (not counting Rielly).
The Leafs finally have some help in the 'tough to play against' area for Phaneuf. Gardiner, as I see, has a game where currently his deficiencies outweigh the positive components. He's not being 'hidden' in the AHL. If he was good enough, he would be with the big club.

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:43 AM
  #163
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
The Leafs finally have some help in the 'tough to play against' area for Phaneuf. Gardiner, as I see, has a game where currently his deficiencies outweigh the positive components. He's not being 'hidden' in the AHL. If he was good enough, he would be with the big club.
Yes, but not all the Leafs D are tough. Liles, Gunnar and Franson are all far from being tough.

The Leafs are taking the very patient approach with Gardiner because he is the only non-waiver eligible Dman plus the team has been winning so there is no need to rush him back. If Gardiner comes up and plays 3 more games he becomes waiver eligible.

Gardiner will be back up with the club soon and I expect him to jump right into playing 20+ minutes a night.

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Old
02-19-2013, 11:49 AM
  #164
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Originally Posted by Mess View Post
After last night's game that saw Gunnar return, we now know officially which dmen sit #7 and #8 on Leafs NHL depth chart and that doesn't include Gardiner in the equation while in the AHL.

The fact Carlyle prefers AHLers over our so called veteran big contract leaders speaks volumes to the change we are now seeing unfolding in Toronto.
Organizational patience is being truly demonstrated and the team is being rewarded for it on the ice because now jobs are being earned on merit of play and not entitlement of contract nor age nor experience.

Nonis has a spare couple vet dmen available, now how to unload them and who wants them is the next question needing answers.
So Carlyle according to you anyway, prefers to suit up AHLers over vets; rather than which D at any given time is playing the best, giving the Leafs the best chance to win? I can pretty much guarantee you that, Carlyle does not take into conisderation contract or age, just the best players who are playing well at that time. It's not about patience, but about winning hockey games. This is a bit of stretch even for you Mess.

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02-19-2013, 11:51 AM
  #165
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Originally Posted by p.l.f. View Post
we cant keep them all
liles and komisarek age/salary would be the first ones out
Get rid of all the vets, and play all rookie and young d? Sounds brilliant, especially when trying to get into, and making a run in the playoffs. Liles would be the perfect mentor IMHO for Reilly.

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02-19-2013, 12:58 PM
  #166
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Liles and Komi are the ones that should/will be moved.

Komi has to be amnestied, Liles is probably still tradeable.

Phaneuf - Gunnar
Gardiner - Franson
Fraser - Kostka
Rielly - Holzer

solid 8-deep unit for next year, young and cheap, too.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:03 PM
  #167
ULF_55
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Originally Posted by Alflives View Post
The Leafs finally have some help in the 'tough to play against' area for Phaneuf. Gardiner, as I see, has a game where currently his deficiencies outweigh the positive components. He's not being 'hidden' in the AHL. If he was good enough, he would be with the big club.
You probably weren't aware he was coming off concussion.

He was the best d-man they had on the Marlies before his concussion. Half of those defensemen he was better than are now playing in the NHL. Sorry, I don't buy the Ranger love.

It is fortunate he didn't require any waivers and they didn't have to rush him.

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Old
02-19-2013, 01:30 PM
  #168
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Yes, but not all the Leafs D are tough. Liles, Gunnar and Franson are all far from being tough.The Leafs are taking the very patient approach with Gardiner because he is the only non-waiver eligible Dman plus the team has been winning so there is no need to rush him back. If Gardiner comes up and plays 3 more games he becomes waiver eligible.

Gardiner will be back up with the club soon and I expect him to jump right into playing 20+ minutes a night.
Shortly after it was announced Dudley was leaving, he was on the radio and spoke about some of the Leafs prospects. He spoke very highly about Gardiner, and said in today's NHL he is the prototypical D with size who can skate and pass the puck. Those factors seem to be favourable to how the game is played today. I still see value in the stay at home, tough D, but skating/size/passing seems to be paramount today.

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02-19-2013, 01:38 PM
  #169
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First off it's amazing we can even have this discussion of what to do with the Leafs Defense depth.

I can say with the way they are playing right now Gards will not be called up until needed. The more he can get back into his game in the AHL the better. without trading gunn/liles we just don't need to rush into things. W have D depth for years to come and moving some to make our front end depth better will be the best option.

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02-19-2013, 01:57 PM
  #170
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I think Liles is the best candidate to be moved if we can get decent value in return. Teams like Detroit, Philly, Edmonton would be looking for established top 4 d.

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02-19-2013, 02:03 PM
  #171
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I think Liles is the best candidate to be moved if we can get decent value in return. Teams like Detroit, Philly, Edmonton would be looking for established top 4 d.
Why not keep Lyles and trade Gardiner for Eberle?

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02-19-2013, 02:21 PM
  #172
Ricky Bobby
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Originally Posted by New Liskeard View Post
Shortly after it was announced Dudley was leaving, he was on the radio and spoke about some of the Leafs prospects. He spoke very highly about Gardiner, and said in today's NHL he is the prototypical D with size who can skate and pass the puck. Those factors seem to be favourable to how the game is played today. I still see value in the stay at home, tough D, but skating/size/passing seems to be paramount today.
I agree.

Gardiner is well suited to the game today and I believe will be at the very least a good # 3 dman but more likely a good # 2 in the not to distant future.

I really like having guys like Fraser/Holzer to fill out the last few spots on the D group because they bring a tough physical element to the game. It helps make the whole team play bigger and prevents Phaneuf from having to fight every battle.

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02-19-2013, 02:25 PM
  #173
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I agree.

Gardiner is well suited to the game today and I believe will be at the very least a good # 3 dman but more likely a good # 2 in the not to distant future.

I really like having guys like Fraser/Holzer to fill out the last few spots on the D group because they bring a tough physical element to the game. It helps make the whole team play bigger and prevents Phaneuf from having to fight every battle.
I agree with your first point, but disagree with your evaluation of Gardiner. On the currrent Leaf's he is not even playing.

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