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Is it time to move Mike Green? (aka the equally confused thread) x2

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04-01-2013, 07:51 AM
  #226
BobRouse
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Nice to see 52 scoring. That should help the confidence.

Playmakers are going to make mistakes sometimes. Thats a fact of life in any sport.

We need him to stay healthy if we are going to make a run. Nice to see him back in the lineup over the last couple weeks.

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04-01-2013, 06:55 PM
  #227
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This is an interesting study in contrasts between the 'leaders' on this team wearing letters. When Green had his brain freeze the other day that led to a loss, Laich threw himself under the bus to take the heat off a teammate while said teammate ran and hid. Contrast that with Green who threw one of his teammates publicly under the bus for the meltdown against the Flyers basically saying Brouwer's penalty cost them the game. Both have letters on their jersey yet only one seems to act in a way consistent with being a team leader.

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04-01-2013, 07:04 PM
  #228
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Originally Posted by gogensgo View Post
This is an interesting study in contrasts between the 'leaders' on this team wearing letters. When Green had his brain freeze the other day that led to a loss, Laich threw himself under the bus to take the heat off a teammate while said teammate ran and hid. Contrast that with Green who threw one of his teammates publicly under the bus for the meltdown against the Flyers basically saying Brouwer's penalty cost them the game. Both have letters on their jersey yet only one seems to act in a way consistent with being a team leader.
Exactly...and the smug look he had where he threw said teammate under the bus makes me want to slap him

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04-01-2013, 07:07 PM
  #229
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Originally Posted by gogensgo View Post
This is an interesting study in contrasts between the 'leaders' on this team wearing letters. When Green had his brain freeze the other day that led to a loss, Laich threw himself under the bus to take the heat off a teammate while said teammate ran and hid. Contrast that with Green who threw one of his teammates publicly under the bus for the meltdown against the Flyers basically saying Brouwer's penalty cost them the game. Both have letters on their jersey yet only one seems to act in a way consistent with being a team leader.
Do you realize how easy it is to say what Laich said in that situation? All the negative attention was focused on Green. There was no consequence to his claiming the blame; all it did was make him look like a great guy and a "leader" who takes responsibility. It's consistent with all of his past attempts to cast himself in similar terms. No debate about Green being too insecure to own up to things, though.

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04-01-2013, 07:12 PM
  #230
Brad Tolliver
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Green is a poser and Laich likes playing martyr. The one thing they have in common is that they both care way more about their own egos than the team they play for and it's telling about this franchise that they are captains on this team.

Neither are real leaders.

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04-01-2013, 07:14 PM
  #231
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Originally Posted by gogensgo View Post
This is an interesting study in contrasts between the 'leaders' on this team wearing letters. When Green had his brain freeze the other day that led to a loss, Laich threw himself under the bus to take the heat off a teammate while said teammate ran and hid. Contrast that with Green who threw one of his teammates publicly under the bus for the meltdown against the Flyers basically saying Brouwer's penalty cost them the game. Both have letters on their jersey yet only one seems to act in a way consistent with being a team leader.
I think Green was just trying to practice what he learned from Troy Brouwer, Leader of Men/reigning champion of throwing people under buses in the NHL.

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04-01-2013, 07:14 PM
  #232
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caps have no real leaders. from the owner's box to the coaches office to the locker room. right?

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04-01-2013, 07:22 PM
  #233
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
Green is a poser and Laich likes playing martyr. The one thing they have in common is that they both care way more about their own egos than the team they play for and it's telling about this franchise that they are captains on this team.

Neither are real leaders.
It's what you'd expect in any outfit run by a 90s marketing entrepreneur with a middle management mentality, honestly. The real engines who quietly plug away and generate actual value for the company without saying a word are ridiculed and shipped out because they don't go to office happy hours/iron their shirts enough. The cocky leeches from gamma kappa phi are celebrated and promoted because they celebrate everyone's birthdays and know how to do the electric slide at the christmas party.

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04-01-2013, 07:23 PM
  #234
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Originally Posted by Brad Tolliver View Post
Green is a poser and Laich likes playing martyr. The one thing they have in common is that they both care way more about their own egos than the team they play for and it's telling about this franchise that they are captains on this team.

Neither are real leaders.
Yup. Very well said.

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04-01-2013, 07:27 PM
  #235
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It's what you'd expect in any outfit run by a 90s marketing entrepreneur with a middle management mentality, honestly. The real engines who quietly plug away and generate actual value for the company without saying a word are ridiculed and shipped out because they don't go to office happy hours/iron their shirts enough. The cocky leeches from gamma kappa phi are celebrated and promoted because they celebrate everyone's birthdays and know how to do the electric slide at the christmas party.
This went way over my head. Who are the leeches and who are the real engines?

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04-01-2013, 07:38 PM
  #236
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Originally Posted by Halpysback View Post
It's what you'd expect in any outfit run by a 90s marketing entrepreneur with a middle management mentality, honestly. The real engines who quietly plug away and generate actual value for the company without saying a word are ridiculed and shipped out because they don't go to office happy hours/iron their shirts enough. The cocky leeches from gamma kappa phi are celebrated and promoted because they celebrate everyone's birthdays and know how to do the electric slide at the christmas party.

I agree. Except it's worse than that.

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04-01-2013, 07:57 PM
  #237
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How on Earth does anyone on this board know the quality of Green's or Laich's leadership?

Locker room sources, I take it?

You dislike Laich because of his interviews and salary. Nothing more.

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04-01-2013, 08:08 PM
  #238
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How on Earth does anyone on this board know the quality of Green's or Laich's leadership?

Locker room sources, I take it?

You dislike Laich because of his interviews and salary. Nothing more.
A knowledgeable and insightful enough person could establish just about a complete profile of Green or Laich's entire psyche/personality/whatever based on their interviews to the media, even though that provides a limited number of situations. Whether that hypothetical person exists or not, the point is the data is there. In this case, the tendencies most responsible for their comments are blatantly apparent. It's not that people are looking at this one instance and saying it makes Laich not a leader; it's that this instance reinforces things that have become apparent about his personality. A lot of those things, I think, are indisputable. If those traits definitively cannot be found in a "leader" then I guess that's the implication, but there's more that goes into that determination.

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04-01-2013, 08:11 PM
  #239
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Oh there's more. He doesn't hit (generally a staple for a "power forward") and he's mediocre at just about everything he does. Though to some people being average at everything = super valuable versatility.

Let's pretend that Semin made that boneheaded dump in instead of ol' Brooksy (though he's too good defensively to do something like that, but since we've already stuffed him full of straw lets fit just a little bit more in there for the sake of this thought experiment). I'm sure the reaction here would be markedly different from oh what a leader lets all aspire to be like him

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04-01-2013, 08:12 PM
  #240
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
A knowledgeable and insightful enough person could establish just about a complete profile of Green or Laich's entire psyche/personality/whatever based on their interviews to the media, even though that provides a limited number of situations. Whether that hypothetical person exists or not, the point is the data is there. In this case, the tendencies most responsible for their comments are blatantly apparent. It's not that people are looking at this one instance and saying it makes Laich not a leader; it's that this instance reinforces things that have become apparent about his personality. A lot of those things, I think, are indisputable. If those traits definitively cannot be found in a "leader" then I guess that's the implication, but there's more that goes into that determination.
No, they really couldn't. A knowledgeable and insightful person wouldn't even attempt such a thing.

Again, people don't like his salary or his interviews, so they want to put him down as a leader. You know, the guy that was elected the team's NHLPA rep, given an 'A', played with a broken foot for 4 months, and just threw himself under the bus for a teammate.

If the Caps had acquired, say, Brendan Morrow and he'd done the same exact things as Laich, he'd be universally praised.

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04-01-2013, 08:23 PM
  #241
Brad Tolliver
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The problem with Laich is the disconnect between what he says to the media and what he does on the ice. The reason Morrow gets praised is because he doesn't and wouldn't do the same thing as Laich. Of course one wouldn't expect anyone whose idea of hockey is nothing more than box score and stat sheet watching to understand any of that.

Green needs the locker room and organization to protect him every time his stupidity blows up in his face. Yeah, that's leadership.

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04-01-2013, 08:23 PM
  #242
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No, they really couldn't. A knowledgeable and insightful person wouldn't even attempt such a thing.
I shouldn't have said a person. The data is there. Maybe no person can interpret it all, but the point is Laich's traits are on display. You have to actually interpret the data for it to mean anything, which I guess you're not open to.

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Again, people don't like his salary or his interviews, so they want to put him down as a leader. You know, the guy that was elected the team's NHLPA rep, given an 'A', played with a broken foot for 4 months, and just threw himself under the bus for a teammate.

If the Caps had acquired, say, Brendan Morrow and he'd done the same exact things as Laich, he'd be universally praised.
"People don't like his interviews." Okay.... This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't like his interviews because I don't like what they reveal about his character. The fact that a conclusion about him is based on his interviews doesn't make it wrong.

Most important, you seriously believe he made some kind of sacrifice by "throwing himself under the bus"? Who in the media or here actually blamed him for it after that? Maybe like one person, who would have done so anyway? He sacrificed nothing and gained all sorts of good-boy points for it. Not rhetorical: What did he sacrifice? Everyone was obviously still going to blame Green.

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04-01-2013, 08:25 PM
  #243
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the negativity on this forum over flows from the realistic to the ridiculous. the caps leadership structure gets ripped from top to bottom on a regular basis. facts are that these players in the locker room know each other. they know what they go thru to play where we on the outside barely see anything.

i would bet every team in the nhl would want brooks laich.

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04-01-2013, 08:26 PM
  #244
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
I shouldn't have said a person. The data is there. Maybe no person can interpret it all, but the point is Laich's traits are on display. You have to actually interpret the data for it to mean anything, which I guess you're not open to.



"People don't like his interviews." Okay.... This is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't like his interviews because I don't like what they reveal about his character. The fact that a conclusion about him is based on his interviews doesn't make it wrong.

Most important, you seriously believe he made some kind of sacrifice by "throwing himself under the bus"? Who in the media or here actually blamed him for it after that? Maybe like one person, who would have done so anyway? He sacrificed nothing and gained all sorts of good-boy points for it. Not rhetorical: What did he sacrifice? Everyone was obviously still going to blame Green.
No, the data is not there. It's an incomplete picture, at best. There are plenty of data points, such as the ones I mentioned, that reflect positively on his leadership. And the ones that you seem to believe reflect negatively on him don't actually do so to most in the sport.

Laich was quite obviously trying to deflect negative attention away from a teammate. How anyone can find a way to spin that into a negative is mind-boggling to me. It's Fox News-esque.

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04-01-2013, 08:28 PM
  #245
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the negativity on this forum over flows from the realistic to the ridiculous. the caps leadership structure gets ripped from top to bottom on a regular basis. facts are that these players in the locker room know each other. they know what they go thru to play where we on the outside barely see anything.

i would bet every team in the nhl would want brooks laich.
Most hockey players are not very perceptive or smart. They're not capable of judging Laich's character, or Semin's, etc. NBTW is probably smarter than almost everyone on the Capitals, and his reaction to Laich is still all surface-based.

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Originally Posted by NBTW
Laich was quite obviously trying to deflect negative attention away from a teammate. How anyone can find a way to spin that into a negative is mind-boggling to me. It's Fox News-esque.
Laich's martyrdom/obsession with playing the great guy is so utterly, screamingly obvious. It's not like I'm just coming to this conclusion now.

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04-01-2013, 08:35 PM
  #246
Brad Tolliver
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Originally Posted by NobodyBeatsTheWiz View Post
No, the data is not there. It's an incomplete picture, at best. There are plenty of data points, such as the ones I mentioned, that reflect positively on his leadership. And the ones that you seem to believe reflect negatively on him don't actually do so to most in the sport.

Laich was quite obviously trying to deflect negative attention away from a teammate. How anyone can find a way to spin that into a negative is mind-boggling to me. It's Fox News-esque.
You don't know Laich's motive for doing that. It's like txpd with his endless defense of the Caps management, coaches, players, and occasionally even Jeff Schultz, you might think he is protecting the franchise reputation on this forum, but past history suggests they are both just playing martyr for the attention.

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04-01-2013, 08:37 PM
  #247
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Originally Posted by Liberati0n View Post
Most hockey players are not very perceptive or smart. They're not capable of judging Laich's character, or Semin's, etc. NBTW is probably smarter than almost everyone on the Capitals, and his reaction to Laich is still all surface-based.


Laich's martyrdom/obsession with playing the great guy is so utterly, screamingly obvious. It's not like I'm just coming to this conclusion now.
Just because you're coming to the conclusion doesn't make it the correct one. As I've said, there is plenty of evidence that flies in the face of your theory that he's a crappy leader.

And how is my reaction to Laich all surface-based, and yours isn't? I don't even recall saying Laich was definitely a great leader. My main point is that it's impossible to tell from what we see.

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04-01-2013, 08:44 PM
  #248
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Laich does seem to ham it up for the camera but aside from him being slightly overpaid and a bit of a drama queen, I don't have much of an issue with him.....now for Green, my level of frustration with him is boiling over......I can't watch the guy interviewed any more......his lack of urgency in his own zone drives me nuts, his lack of accountability in the media pisses me off......and I've said this a few times, but I'd love to smack that smug rock star look off his face.

At 6 million a year....I'd be stoked if he was traded straight up for Giordano.

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04-01-2013, 08:49 PM
  #249
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Just because you're coming to the conclusion doesn't make it the correct one. As I've said, there is plenty of evidence that flies in the face of your theory that he's a crappy leader.

And how is my reaction to Laich all surface-based, and yours isn't? I don't even recall saying Laich was definitely a great leader. My main point is that it's impossible to tell from what we see.
My contention isn't really that he's a crappy leader. My contention is that his priority is his image. He appears to care more about looking like a team player than actually being one. As Brad Tolliver said, there is a disconnect between what he talks about and what he actually does on the ice. If he successfully maintains the image he's trying to cultivate, as I said, most of the other players will probably buy into it. So I guess practically that makes him an effective leader. All I care about is his motives.

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04-01-2013, 08:50 PM
  #250
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My contention isn't really that he's a crappy leader. My contention is that his priority is his image. He appears to care more about looking like a team player than actually being one. As Brad Tolliver said, there is a disconnect between what he talks about and what he actually does on the ice. If he successfully maintains the image he's trying to cultivate, as I said, most of the other players will probably buy into it. So I guess practically that makes him an effective leader. All I care about is his motives.
Ok, I'll bite.

What's the disconnect with what he says off the ice and what he does on it?

And it wouldn't be interesting to know how much of this talk there was before the extension.

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