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Brian Burke Thread - March 2013

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02-21-2013, 08:03 AM
  #301
bunjay
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Burke could have magically assembled the best team since the '80s Oilers, and they still would have failed being coached by his buddy. It cannot be overstated how much of a blunder it was sticking with Wilson loooong after it became apparent the guy couldn't get anything right. Team defense. Special teams. Player development. Overall strategy. All incredibly bad.

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02-21-2013, 08:03 AM
  #302
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Mr. Burke was a failure in Toronto and was (rightfully) let go. It has nothing to do with 'hate'; but everything to do with a lack of results. And in life, that's the only thing that matters.

Please, people. Stop with the excuses. Watch Mr. Burke's press-conference. He said it himself: the team did not win enough games.

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02-21-2013, 08:06 AM
  #303
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Originally Posted by NYCLeafs View Post
I am a long time reader however I have never posted before. I made this account specifically due to the fact that I cannot for the life of me understand the Brian Burke Hate. I am a life long leafs fan that grew up and lives in NYC so I understand that its not just Toronto fans that will love or hate someone at the drop of a hat.

For me there is no question that this team is what it is today because of Brian Burke and he deserves a great deal of credit. When he took over the leafs had easily one of the worst lineups in the league and very few prospects with the exception of Frattin ect. from JF era. The future was not looking good and I couldnt find a single player on the leafs that I truly enjoyed watching....Stajan? Hagman? Blake? I mean really. We now have Phanuef, Gardener, Reily, Kessel, JVR, Lupul, Kadri....to name a few. Even if this season turns to crap...we have exciting young players that will be a part of this franchise for years to come and we did not have to tank every year to do so.




Whatever happens this year good or bad Brian Burk deserved the credit. From the style of hockey that is being played now due to him bringing in Randy Carlyle to not rushing some of our prospects who look as though they may turn into very solid NHL players.

I honestly find it pretty remarkable what this lineup looks like compared to what it was when he took over. The future looks bright so give credit where credit is due.

*Disclaimer* Written quickly at work.
Mom always told me, "do unto others as you would have them do to you." Burke was/is a cranky old *******. I am so grateful I do not need to listen to his or Wilson's rants or look at their sour looking mug.

The firing of Wilson and Burke removed a huge black cloud over this organization. Hockey is fun again.

That said, Burke had other faults as well. The Kessel trade. Letting Tlustly go for nothing. Trading Kubina for nothing and signing Komisarik. Signing Lebda. His contracts for Grabo and Liles are also bloated. Trading Anton Strallman when the team could have used a defensemen. Not signing Dominic Moore after he was one of the Leafs best players.

Certainly he made good moves as well and we see those on the ice but lets not pretend he left this team as solid contenders for the Stanley Cup. After 4+ years with Burke this team is a bubble playoff team. Not sure how you measure success but lets not pretend Burke has conquered the world

Lets also not pretend that Burke drafted Reimer, Frattin, and Komarov Burke has 1, count'em, 1 draft pick from hs four years playing with the team -- Kadri. That is hardly a measure of amazing success.

Fact, if Burke did nothing he would have Seguin and others in the lineup. Whether you can fault him for the trade or not (and I love Kessel), you can fault him for totally mis-assessing his team the first four years thinking they were better than he thought. You can also fault him to a very very large extent for sticking with Ron Wilson far far too long and having this franchise suffer for years as a result. Those are very big faults that can't be overlooked.

The Leafs still need a number one center, number one goalie and a number one dman. In the same time we've watched a team like Colorado add Duchene, ROR, Landeskog, Eric Johnson, Varlamov etc. We don't need to discuss what Edmonton has added.. Boston has added Seguin, Hamilton, in addition to Rask and others they already have.

So again, I don't know who you are comparing this team to but it isn't ready to win a cup and is a bubble playoff team. If 4 years of losing badly and finally turning into a bubble playoff team means Burke deserves all the credit -- then yeah -- hooray for Burke and the mediocre team he built after 4 years of losing. Congratulations.

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02-21-2013, 08:27 AM
  #304
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Originally Posted by birddog View Post

That said, Burke had other faults as well. The Kessel trade. Letting Tlustly go for nothing. Trading Kubina for nothing and signing Komisarik. Signing Lebda. His contracts for Grabo and Liles are also bloated. Trading Anton Strallman when the team could have used a defensemen. Not signing Dominic Moore after he was one of the Leafs best players.

Lets also not pretend that Burke drafted Reimer, Frattin, and Komarov Burke has 1, count'em, 1 draft pick from hs four years playing with the team -- Kadri. That is hardly a measure of amazing success.

Fact, if Burke did nothing he would have Seguin and others in the lineup. Whether you can fault him for the trade or not (and I love Kessel), you can fault him for totally mis-assessing his team the first four years thinking they were better than he thought. You can also fault him to a very very large extent for sticking with Ron Wilson far far too long and having this franchise suffer for years as a result. Those are very big faults that can't be overlooked.

The Leafs still need a number one center, number one goalie and a number one dman. In the same time we've watched a team like Colorado add Duchene, ROR, Landeskog, Eric Johnson, Varlamov etc. We don't need to discuss what Edmonton has added.. Boston has added Seguin, Hamilton, in addition to Rask and others they already have.

So again, I don't know who you are comparing this team to but it isn't ready to win a cup and is a bubble playoff team. If 4 years of losing badly and finally turning into a bubble playoff team means Burke deserves all the credit -- then yeah -- hooray for Burke and the mediocre team he built after 4 years of losing. Congratulations.
The bolded are all good points. The Kessel trade isn't the ONLY thing that Burke made errors on. It's THE big/obvious one, but there were others as well. And the team IS playing pretty well right now, but it's still a small sample size and we still have a few big holes and lack legitimate franchise players which are going to be the hardest ones to find.

At least we're starting to have some evidence that we MIGHT have some decent goaltending, but again, look at the top ~10-15 goalies in the league for save % right now, it CLEARLY is not representative of the best goalies, and clearly a number of them are playing way over their heads. We won't know if our goalies are among those who are just on hot streaks, or its showing legitimate improvement.

Unless youre prepared to say that Ellis, Crawford, Emery, Fasth, and Dubnyk are all legitimate longterm franchise/#1 goalies, then its a little early to jump the gun on our own goalies who have similar stats. It IS a good sign, but its not without question marks.

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02-21-2013, 08:29 AM
  #305
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Originally Posted by Epictetus View Post
Mr. Burke was a failure in Toronto and was (rightfully) let go. It has nothing to do with 'hate'; but everything to do with a lack of results. And in life, that's the only thing that matters.

Please, people. Stop with the excuses. Watch Mr. Burke's press-conference. He said it himself: the team did not win enough games.
You expected him to make the playoffs all 4 years with Stajan, Poni, Hagman, Toskala ect.? Need to lower expectations.

I am very happy with where this team is right now even if we dont make the playoffs. At least this team is fun to watch again and there are players worth buying a jersey.

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02-21-2013, 08:32 AM
  #306
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
The bolded are all good points. The Kessel trade isn't the ONLY thing that Burke made errors on. It's THE big/obvious one, but there were others as well. And the team IS playing pretty well right now, but it's still a small sample size and we still have a few big holes and lack legitimate franchise players which are going to be the hardest ones to find.

At least we're starting to have some evidence that we MIGHT have some decent goaltending, but again, look at the top ~10-15 goalies in the league for save % right now, it CLEARLY is not representative of the best goalies, and clearly a number of them are playing way over their heads. We won't know if our goalies are among those who are just on hot streaks, or its showing legitimate improvement.

Unless youre prepared to say that Ellis, Crawford, Emery, Fasth, and Dubnyk are all legitimate longterm franchise/#1 goalies, then its a little early to jump the gun on our own goalies who have similar stats. It IS a good sign, but its not without question marks.
Tlustly was an error and an asset let go for nothing. Wilson was a huge error in judgement. While not ALL bad -- my point was it's not ALL good either. Burke made his mistakes. finishing where he did. Totally mis-assessing his team. It also remains to be seen what players are going to come from Burke's draft.

So while not all bad. Firing Burke was a positive move for the organization and a step in the right direction. He was a black cloud over the organization and I'm not sure we would see the type of success we are seeing now if he was still here.

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02-21-2013, 08:36 AM
  #307
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Originally Posted by 416Leafer View Post
The bolded are all good points. The Kessel trade isn't the ONLY thing that Burke made errors on. It's THE big/obvious one, but there were others as well. And the team IS playing pretty well right now, but it's still a small sample size and we still have a few big holes and lack legitimate franchise players which are going to be the hardest ones to find.

At least we're starting to have some evidence that we MIGHT have some decent goaltending, but again, look at the top ~10-15 goalies in the league for save % right now, it CLEARLY is not representative of the best goalies, and clearly a number of them are playing way over their heads. We won't know if our goalies are among those who are just on hot streaks, or its showing legitimate improvement.

Unless youre prepared to say that Ellis, Crawford, Emery, Fasth, and Dubnyk are all legitimate longterm franchise/#1 goalies, then its a little early to jump the gun on our own goalies who have similar stats. It IS a good sign, but its not without question marks.
someone is gonna hire burke ,,,and its a shame .why not give a young GM or assistant a chance?

burke was vry mediocre at best and the leafs are a billion dollar company ,im sure MLSE has its own people in place since they bought the club ,comparing the leafs with other teams etc ...burke wouldnt have been able tto trade kessel ,simple as that ,and like it or not ,he may have to be moved ,or may not be in the cards for a big a raise his agent wil want ....actually i think randy carlyle has abetter handle on the leafs personal than anyone ....i think he could be a GM ...at least building a team with his phylosophies anyways

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02-21-2013, 08:41 AM
  #308
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You expected him to make the playoffs all 4 years with Stajan, Poni, Hagman, Toskala ect.? Need to lower expectations.

I am very happy with where this team is right now even if we dont make the playoffs. At least this team is fun to watch again and there are players worth buying a jersey.
No, I expected him to post better than a .490 winning percentage. That percentage is lower than Mr. Ferguson, who people seem to hate on any chance they get. Asking for an improvement on that percentage in a league that rewards mediocrity is not asking for much, is it?

But since the team Mr. Burke inherited was so bad, it'd make sense for him to improve statistically. However following from his record, he only did that once out of 4 years. And, again, if the team was so bad, then he should have just said so and preached 'patience', not this 'accelerated rebuild' or 'retool' or whatever.

The team is fun. I do enjoy watching Leaf games. I will give you that. However, I hold no regrets over his firing and still think it was a genius move to re-brand this hockey club.

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02-21-2013, 08:48 AM
  #309
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No, I expected him to post better than a .490 winning percentage. That percentage is lower than Mr. Ferguson, who people seem to hate on any chance they get. Asking for an improvement on that percentage in a league that rewards mediocrity is not asking for much, is it?

But since the team Mr. Burke inherited was so bad, it'd make sense for him to improve statistically. However following from his record, he only did that once out of 4 years. And, again, if the team was so bad, then he should have just said so and preached 'patience', not this 'accelerated rebuild' or 'retool' or whatever.

The team is fun. I do enjoy watching Leaf games. I will give you that. However, I hold no regrets over his firing and still think it was a genius move to re-brand this hockey club.
Burke badly misjudged the quality of his team. I think a big part of this was thinking Wilson had any clue how to coach a team that was nothing like the San Jose and Washington teams wwith which he racked up most of his wins. A more appropriate coach could have done much better with the same lineup. Wilson's strategy treated the team with the worst goaltending in the league as if it were the Cujo era Leafs.

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02-21-2013, 09:04 AM
  #310
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Tlustly was an error and an asset let go for nothing. Wilson was a huge error in judgement. While not ALL bad -- my point was it's not ALL good either. Burke made his mistakes. finishing where he did. Totally mis-assessing his team. It also remains to be seen what players are going to come from Burke's draft.

So while not all bad. Firing Burke was a positive move for the organization and a step in the right direction. He was a black cloud over the organization and I'm not sure we would see the type of success we are seeing now if he was still here.
Burke's dismissal has gone a long way to reuniting Leafs nation fans and creating a more peaceful work environment for the players by the removal of the constant negative publicity Burke brought on by his actions, words and lack of team success.

Nonis is quietly going about business not endlessly feeding the media monster with sound bites that endlessly come back to haunt the team. Burke's mistakes in poor player personnel judgment are slowly but surely being removed from the equation and out of sight and mind.. Nonis gives a fresh start situation for MLSE as previous mistakes including the Kessel ill-advised trade are severed with the separation from the past, and not an endless magnet for controversy in the present anymore. This is exactly what MLSE hoped to accomplish by this change in direction and corporate voice.

Most importantly the Burke/Wilson run and gun pond hockey era of never ending losing results is behind us.. Where it was naively believed by management that exciting (but losing) hockey is what Leaf Nation fans wanted to see.. Burke forgot this is Canada and as such hockey its #1 sport and we don't need to be sold/educated on the game, we grew up watching.

So now we're seeing the Nonis/Carlyle era beginning with a 180 degree turn in dedication to a defense first philosophy, a blue collar, hard working approach where "sense of entitlement" has been removed and now being established by player performance regardless of age, contract etc on merit. This has translated to a far more successful and difficult team to play against on a nightly basis and while some fans may complain its boring hockey, in the end its still the results that matter most that all fans enjoy when it produces winning end results.

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02-21-2013, 09:09 AM
  #311
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No, I expected him to post better than a .490 winning percentage. That percentage is lower than Mr. Ferguson, who people seem to hate on any chance they get. Asking for an improvement on that percentage in a league that rewards mediocrity is not asking for much, is it?

But since the team Mr. Burke inherited was so bad, it'd make sense for him to improve statistically. However following from his record, he only did that once out of 4 years. And, again, if the team was so bad, then he should have just said so and preached 'patience', not this 'accelerated rebuild' or 'retool' or whatever.

The team is fun. I do enjoy watching Leaf games. I will give you that. However, I hold no regrets over his firing and still think it was a genius move to re-brand this hockey club.
First and foremost...you have sound reasoning. I figured I would be arguing with someone who spouted random garbage so good points.

Obviously in any professional sport everything is based on results. In this particular case the only issues I ever had with Burke was keeping Wilson and the Kessel trade even though at this point I am not crying over it. (Sizeable mistakes) Every other move he made/Trade for the most part has been nothing short of remarkable and I doubt any other GM could have pulled it off.

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02-21-2013, 09:16 AM
  #312
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First and foremost...you have sound reasoning. I figured I would be arguing with someone who spouted random garbage so good points.

Obviously in any professional sport everything is based on results. In this particular case the only issues I ever had with Burke was keeping Wilson and the Kessel trade even though at this point I am not crying over it. (Sizeable mistakes) Every other move he made/Trade for the most part has been nothing short of remarkable and I doubt any other GM could have pulled it off.
Welcome to the boards. Lesson one, don't waste your time 'defending' Burke.
It has become very apparent here that some posters have an extreme personal issue with the guy that they cannot get over. It completely narrows their perspective and destroys their sense of objective hockey discussion (although they keep arguing that they are apparently the only objective ones).

Burke has done some great and some terrible as Leafs GM. This team is still largely his doing, including the current coach, both pro and farm. Whether that's good or bad is still to be determined.

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02-21-2013, 09:37 AM
  #313
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Even though they didn't pan out, I have no issue with Burke's signings.

Free agents are always a risk, and are usually overpaid.

When he signed Komisarek, he was exactly what we needed, a hard-hitting shut down defenceman. We hadn't drafted Schenn yet, and we had no one else in the organization capable of what Komi could bring. Like I said, it didn't work out, maybe because of Wilson I dont know, but for whatever reason Komi looked nothing like the guy I hated seeing out on the ice for Montreal.

Lebda, hey whatever, it's no risk, and Burke turned him into Franson.

The Connolly signing, I was against because I really dont care for soft as butter floaters, but again, it's not like we gave anything up, and if he had really clicked with Kessel it could have been good.

So his FA signings obviously did not work out, but that's not the issue I have with Burke's tenure here.

The issues I have are: his insistence on keeping Wilson (and in general his sticking by people and/or self-imposed rules to be a good guy or whatever to the detriment of the team), the kessel trade (too risky for where we were), his promise of a tough team followed with acquiring the softest bunch of losers I've seen play for the Leafs in a long time (i.e. saying one thing and doing another), and finally his pure lack of results coupled with a lack of humility.

Anyways, I like some of what Burke did, but it was the right move to fire him.

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02-21-2013, 10:13 AM
  #314
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Even though they didn't pan out, I have no issue with Burke's signings.

Free agents are always a risk, and are usually overpaid.

When he signed Komisarek, he was exactly what we needed, a hard-hitting shut down defenceman. We hadn't drafted Schenn yet, and we had no one else in the organization capable of what Komi could bring.
Schenn had already played a full season with the Leafs when Komisarek was signed.

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02-21-2013, 10:22 AM
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Schenn had already played a full season with the Leafs when Komisarek was signed.
Oops, my bad. I thought we got Schenn the next year. I guess the main point is that FA signings sometimes work out, sometimes dont. I just dont think they are worth including with Burke's failings as they were low risk (just cap space involved).

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02-21-2013, 10:44 AM
  #316
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Welcome to the boards. Lesson one, don't waste your time 'defending' Burke.
It has become very apparent here that some posters have an extreme personal issue with the guy that they cannot get over. It completely narrows their perspective and destroys their sense of objective hockey discussion (although they keep arguing that they are apparently the only objective ones).

Burke has done some great and some terrible as Leafs GM. This team is still largely his doing, including the current coach, both pro and farm. Whether that's good or bad is still to be determined.
why should u defend a 490 winning percentage ,extending a crappy coach only to fire him 3 months later ,having 12 -16 million dollars in a cap world sitting in the press box or the marlies every nite?/lets see if MR BURKE will work in another market where the owners care about the bottom line .mediocre GM ...AT BEST .he got canned because he couldnt justify his ,lousy signings and the MSLE ,rich as it is, wants its assets acountable ,and obviously if connolly ,komiserik ,liles.etc were playing right now ,my guess our record would be reversed ,maybe even worse ...and yes ,hed never be able to show his face again ,if he had to trade kessel ,or if kessel walks ,,he had to go ...

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02-21-2013, 12:14 PM
  #317
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Burke's dismissal has gone a long way to reuniting Leafs nation fans and creating a more peaceful work environment for the players by the removal of the constant negative publicity Burke brought on by his actions, words and lack of team success.

Nonis is quietly going about business not endlessly feeding the media monster with sound bites that endlessly come back to haunt the team. Burke's mistakes in poor player personnel judgment are slowly but surely being removed from the equation and out of sight and mind.. Nonis gives a fresh start situation for MLSE as previous mistakes including the Kessel ill-advised trade are severed with the separation from the past, and not an endless magnet for controversy in the present anymore. This is exactly what MLSE hoped to accomplish by this change in direction and corporate voice.

Most importantly the Burke/Wilson run and gun pond hockey era of never ending losing results is behind us.. Where it was naively believed by management that exciting (but losing) hockey is what Leaf Nation fans wanted to see.. Burke forgot this is Canada and as such hockey its #1 sport and we don't need to be sold/educated on the game, we grew up watching.

So now we're seeing the Nonis/Carlyle era beginning with a 180 degree turn in dedication to a defense first philosophy, a blue collar, hard working approach where "sense of entitlement" has been removed and now being established by player performance regardless of age, contract etc on merit. This has translated to a far more successful and difficult team to play against on a nightly basis and while some fans may complain its boring hockey, in the end its still the results that matter most that all fans enjoy when it produces winning end results.
Well said.

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02-21-2013, 12:24 PM
  #318
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Problem here is people are letting their personal feelings about Burke's demeanor cloud their judgment.

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02-21-2013, 12:33 PM
  #319
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Oops, my bad. I thought we got Schenn the next year. I guess the main point is that FA signings sometimes work out, sometimes dont. I just dont think they are worth including with Burke's failings as they were low risk (just cap space involved).
Spending to the Cap ceiling and producing bottom 5 end results by your team building practices is very poor cap management reflective on the mistakes you've made.

If you spend to the cap floor and produce bottom 5 team results and then at least it would be explainable, as then end justifies the means of your own actions.

The consequences of mistakes is your own dismissal in the long run as we have just witnessed occurring in Toronto.

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02-21-2013, 12:35 PM
  #320
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Burke Joins Ducks

James Mirtle ‏@mirtle
Brian Burke rejoins the Ducks as a scout.

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02-21-2013, 12:35 PM
  #321
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Good for him, wasn't going to take long before he left.

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02-21-2013, 12:35 PM
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Just saw this.

That's interesting. Good for him.

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02-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #323
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burke and wilson to buffalo
that would be akward
edit: burke is now a scout for ducks - temporarily perhaps - but could still be a gm elsewhere )


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02-21-2013, 12:36 PM
  #324
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Kessel for a re-signed Perry now?

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02-21-2013, 12:38 PM
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Weird. Maybe they're using Burke as a way to keep Getz and Perry? I mean they did win Burkie a Cup.

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