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Hasek or Roy? (Part 2)

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Old
03-17-2005, 01:20 AM
  #1
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Hasek or Roy? (Part 2)

Ok I decided to bring back the Roy vs. Hasek debate which I started about 4 months ago and a lot has changed in these boards since then, and to get the thoughts of the newer members and of course the older ones who might've missed out and just about everyone.

Roy:

Greatest Accomplishments:
1- League's all time wins leader
2- 3 Conn Smythe trophies
3- 3 Vezina trophies

Hasek:
Greatest Accomplishments:
1- 6 Vezina trophies
2- 2 Hart trophies
3- 63 shutouts to Roy's 65 in half as many games.

Who would you say was better in a career basis and concistency (sp?) not just one or two great cup wins)

And ultimately who would you say was the better goalie? I'll give my opinion later.

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03-17-2005, 01:26 AM
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Roy was the better goalie. However, during their primes Hasek was the better goalie. What I like about Roy was the ability to raise his game during the playoffs. He won 10 straight overtime games. IMO Roy was better than Hasek.

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03-17-2005, 01:31 AM
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Originally Posted by canucksfan
Roy was the better goalie. However, during their primes Hasek was the better goalie. What I like about Roy was the ability to raise his game during the playoffs. He won 10 straight overtime games. IMO Roy was better than Hasek.
Interesting to bring back the 10 ot wins... dont you think that's more of a team record then his personal greatness? I mean sure a goalie plays a huge part in winning games and especially overtime games but if you dont have the offense to score the goal then you dont win.

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03-17-2005, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Interesting to bring back the 10 ot wins... dont you think that's more of a team record then his personal greatness? I mean sure a goalie plays a huge part in winning games and especially overtime games but if you dont have the offense to score the goal then you dont win.
The ten OT stat is a team stat to some extent. You could also agrue then that shutouts are a team stat. I don't care what team you have. To win 10 straight overtime games is amazing. The 1993 Montreal team was a good team but they weren't great. They won because of Roy.

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03-17-2005, 01:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
The ten OT stat is a team stat to some extent. You could also agrue then that shutouts are a team stat. I don't care what team you have. To win 10 straight overtime games is amazing. The 1993 Montreal team was a good team but they weren't great. They won because of Roy.
Fair enough, but let's say Hasek was the goalie in MTL instead of Roy. I think he would've won too. That's speculation though and not 100 percent fact.

Also 3/4 of those overtimes didnt go on more then 5-6 minutes I believe and 2 or 3 of them didnt even pass the one minute mark. Certainly no fluke, but I dont think Roy was the reason they won each and every OT game. He was the reason they won 1/4 of them though.

How can a shutout be a team stat? If a goalie plays great then you get a shutout, but your goalie can play average or bad and your team could still win.

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03-17-2005, 01:59 AM
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One reason why I think Hasek had better season stats during his prime was because he never won the cup until his last year and he was very motivated to do well during the season. On the other hand, in his first nhl season Roy won the cup and the Conny Smythe..so it's like he had nothing to prove anymore already at the age of 20. I noticed when a player tends to have early playoff success in his career, he immediately puts the regular season 2nd and tends to concentrate on playoffs. On the other hand when a player doesn't have much success in the playoffs for whatever reason, the regular season becomes his bread and butter. Untill you win the cup, people will judge you on your regular season stats..in contrast however, when you win the cup numerous times, reg season stats become useless. Because for a long time Hasek was on a bad team in Buffalo he had no chance of winning the cup, so he was forced to play extremely well during regular season and have amazing stats. Roy seems to care less about regular season stats like shutouts or average, instead he seemed obsessed with getting to playoffs and winning the cup.

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03-17-2005, 04:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by canucksfan
The ten OT stat is a team stat to some extent. You could also agrue then that shutouts are a team stat. I don't care what team you have. To win 10 straight overtime games is amazing.
I didn't watch the games, but I find it a little bit exaggerating to say that 10 OT wins is because of Roy. Unless there were a lot of double OT games or something, short OT's are typically about who buries their chance first. I mean, he didn't win it in regulation for those 10 games, either. Not exactly the best way to keep your team fresh and rested. It's impressive that they were won all in a row, but I don't find it as some major boost to Roy that he won 10 in a row. OT wins, unless they go for a long time, tend to be team wins, IMO (or unless one team gets badly dominated, but I don't see that too often in OT, esp. since it usually wouldn't go to OT if one team was getting worked so bad).

That said, I think Roy had the better career because his started earlier, and Hasek had the better peak (fairly easily, imo). No goalie was ever as intimidating to play against as Hasek, imo (although Hextall may have been intimidating to play against for different reasons ).

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03-17-2005, 08:41 AM
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Patrick Roy had the better career, but IMO Hasek reached a peak that no other goalie ever has.

Hasek from 94-01, is the best it's ever been done. Roy had the better longer career, but part of that was due to the Iron Curtain and then being stuck behind Belfour.

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03-17-2005, 10:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beach Boy
Because for a long time Hasek was on a bad team in Buffalo he had no chance of winning the cup, so he was forced to play extremely well during regular season and have amazing stats. Roy seems to care less about regular season stats like shutouts or average, instead he seemed obsessed with getting to playoffs and winning the cup.
Or Hasek was just a better goalie on a brutal team.

Ranked playoff stats by year:
Hasek...................Roy
1.61 , 0.953.......... 1.69 , 0.934*
1.77 , 0.942.......... 1.79 , 0.928*
1.96 , 0.932.......... 2.13 , 0.934
2.02 , 0.941.......... 2.20 , 0.936
1.85 , 0.920.......... 1.92 , ??? (1986)

I can only imagine what Hasek might have done if he had slacked off all regular season and actually tried to win in the playoffs too.

*(the Ray Bourque years. They really stand out amongst his other playoff seasons).

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03-17-2005, 10:48 AM
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Hasek.

When Hasek first came to NA he was playing behind Belfour in Chicago, and I recall saying to my friends that Ottawa (first year team) should try to trade for him. After all, he had been amazing in Europe before coming here. Of course, I never thought he would have turned out the way he did.

Looks like I got my wish - about 14 years too late though.

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03-17-2005, 11:52 AM
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A few other things I would say Hasek had over Roy is.

1- Attidude problem(need I say more?)

2- Roy had some bad games and that's normal for a goalie but it seemed like his bad games turned worse then any elite goalie ever. I mean he would let in 5 goals, then 6, then 7, then would be pulled or pull himself out. Not to mention the time where he allowed 9 goals in only 2 periods. I would bet my money that would've never happened to Hasek.

3- International success, stoned 5 of the best canadian shooters while Roy let in 2 goals in the shootout.

4- Hasek still managed to put better numbers each year then Roy even though he was on much worse teams.

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03-17-2005, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
3- International success, stoned 5 of the best canadian shooters while Roy let in 2 goals in the shootout.
Roy only gave u one goal in the shootout, a perfect shot by Robert Reichel off the post and in. A perfect shot beats a goalie every time.

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03-17-2005, 12:55 PM
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Originally Posted by trentmccleary
I can only imagine what Hasek might have done if he had slacked off all regular season and actually tried to win in the playoffs too.
seasons).
You got me wrong. I'm saying if he had won 2 stanley cups and 2 conn smythes by the age of 25, then he wouldve slacked off during the regular season..and that's only normal.

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03-17-2005, 01:15 PM
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I'd take Roy, but I'm a Habs fan so many I'm biased. Those 3 Conn Smythes seal the deal for me, though. I think they look prettier than 6 Vezinas. And I know there's lots of naysayers about his playoff runs in Montreal... met inferior seeds, had underrated players in front of him, etc. But seeding means nothing, just look at the Flames, Canes, Ducks, etc. His job was to stop the puck, and a dangerous chance is equally dangerous whether it's coming from a number 1 seed or a number 8. He was dominant.

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03-17-2005, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
A few other things I would say Hasek had over Roy is.

1- Attidude problem(need I say more?)
Actually, could you? Do you mean that Hasek had more or less of an attitude problem?

Seems to me, they were both colossal dicks, perhaps due to being so talented. On the one hand, Roy was clearly an a-hole every time he stepped into the crease, and was incredibly fun to root against. But on the other, I don't recall him ever getting his coach fired like Hasek did with Nolan.

Overall, I'd say Hasek was clearly the better goalie. Roy had the stats, but Hasek had all the intangibles that made him the only really fearsome goalie in recent memory. Roy inspired endless numbers of copycats -- Hasek had stuff that just can't be copied.

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03-17-2005, 01:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Flyers Fan
Roy only gave up one goal in the shootout, a perfect shot by Robert Reichel off the post and in. A perfect shot beats a goalie every time.
If I recall correctly, Jagr shot one off the post as well but it stayed out...an almost perfect shot, I suppose.

My vote goes to Hasek...in their primes, Hasek dominated the NHL.

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03-17-2005, 02:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
A few other things I would say Hasek had over Roy is.

1- Attidude problem(need I say more?)



2- Roy had some bad games and that's normal for a goalie but it seemed like his bad games turned worse then any elite goalie ever. I mean he would let in 5 goals, then 6, then 7, then would be pulled or pull himself out. Not to mention the time where he allowed 9 goals in only 2 periods. I would bet my money that would've never happened to Hasek.



3- International success, stoned 5 of the best canadian shooters while Roy let in 2 goals in the shootout.



4- Hasek still managed to put better numbers each year then Roy even though he was on much worse teams.
1) i hope your saying hasek had a worst attitude than roy, because hasek is by far the all-time crybaby for goalies, throwing his gear on the ice at officials, attacking sports writers, walking out on his team only to practice after he says he is too injured to play etc.

2) silly speculation

3) shoot, i guess reichel scored twice on that 1 shot cuz i dont remember anyone else scoring. I always love the shootout debate, since this game is often used as an major advantage over roy, roy lets in one perfect shot whereas the canadian team does 2 brutal penalty shot moves(shanahan & bourque) on hasek and hasek is a legend, u switch the 5 shooters and roy could of very easily one that(or if canada has kariya or sakic), imo european players are alot better on breakaways than NA, if that game is not decided by shootout, canada most likely wins and the international debate is over.

4) so what, goalies on good teams dont get the credit they deserves because their teams are good(brodeur for the longest time) whereas goalies on poor teams get more credit for their team being bad(luongo)

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03-17-2005, 02:55 PM
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St. Patrick, no one has won 3 Conn Smythe's, that is an amazing accomplishment. The fact that Roy let in one shootout goal compared to Hasek's 0 mean less then nothing to me, a goalies job is to stop shots. I mean I think he let that in pretty early too, Canada had plenty of chances to get it in, they didn't.

That and I hate Hasek's style, a guy isn't going to be able to score when a skate comes two inches from his face and a blocker takes out his knee.

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03-17-2005, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Number 19
St. Patrick, no one has won 3 Conn Smythe's, that is an amazing accomplishment. The fact that Roy let in one shootout goal compared to Hasek's 0 mean less then nothing to me, a goalies job is to stop shots. I mean I think he let that in pretty early too, Canada had plenty of chances to get it in, they didn't.

That and I hate Hasek's style, a guy isn't going to be able to score when a skate comes two inches from his face and a blocker takes out his knee.
Hate his style all you want but fact is he was the best goalie one on one and got the job done where as Roy on breakaways was beat on half breakaways he had to face while hasek was only beaten like 1 out of 10.

Roy won three conn smythes yes, but switch Hasek with Roy and Hasek would've won too. Also had Hasek not come to the league at the age of 28 he would've enjoyed much more playoff success then he did.

Also about Canada having a lot of chances but didnt then one might wonder why they didnt? Simply because of Dominik Hasek being unbeatable.

Oh and one more thing. Whenever they have met in an important game or series, Hasek has come out on top. Remember Colorado/Detroit 2002? Hasek posts 2 shutouts in a row in game 6 and 7 while Roy let in a total of 9 goals. (one game 7!!)

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03-17-2005, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DRL
4) so what, goalies on good teams dont get the credit they deserves because their teams are good(brodeur for the longest time) whereas goalies on poor teams get more credit for their team being bad(luongo)
No, it's a matter of just plain being better... especially when your competition can't even compete with you and he constantly plays with future HoF'ers, Norris and Selke winners/nominees.

The fact that Hasek was statistically better by a large margin should end this debate. But that he did this with a H-U-G-E disadvantage in terms of talent in front of him compared to Roy... is absolutely amazing.

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03-17-2005, 05:44 PM
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Dominik Hasek's peak as a goaltender is similar as Wayne Gretzky's peak as a forward when he won nine of ten Hart Trophies and Bobby Orr's peak as a defenseman when he won eight straight Norris Trophies.

Patrick Roy clearly has had the greater career in terms of longevity, but he is Ray Bourque to Hasek's Bobby Orr. I therefore say that Dominik Hasek is the greatest ever NHL goaltender.

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03-17-2005, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by KOVALEV10
Fair enough, but let's say Hasek was the goalie in MTL instead of Roy. I think he would've won too. That's speculation though and not 100 percent fact.

Also 3/4 of those overtimes didnt go on more then 5-6 minutes I believe and 2 or 3 of them didnt even pass the one minute mark. Certainly no fluke, but I dont think Roy was the reason they won each and every OT game. He was the reason they won 1/4 of them though.

How can a shutout be a team stat? If a goalie plays great then you get a shutout, but your goalie can play average or bad and your team could still win.
It's hard to say whether Hasek would have won all those overtime games or not. You can speculate all you want but the fact is Roy won them.

I don't know how far into overtime the games went into but I'll take your word. That being said to win ten straight overtime games you need a great goalie. If all the games finished one minute into overtime I still think it would be a great stat.

A shutout can be a team stat because if you have a great defence and a team that plays defensive minded hockey you have more chance of getting a shutout than compared to a team that plays wide open and has a poor defence.


Last edited by canucksfan: 03-17-2005 at 06:30 PM.
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03-17-2005, 06:59 PM
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Originally Posted by canucksfan
It's hard to say whether Hasek would have won all those overtime games or not. You can speculate all you want but the fact is Roy won them.

I don't know how far into overtime the games went into but I'll take your word. That being said to win ten straight overtime games you need a great goalie. If all the games finished one minute into overtime I still think it would be a great stat.

A shutout can be a team stat because if you have a great defence and a team that plays defensive minded hockey you have more chance of getting a shutout than compared to a team that plays wide open and has a poor defence.
Well about the defense part... nobody will deny that Hasek for the first 7 years in buffalo until 2000 had poor defense in front of him. I mean they used to let 30 shots a game and it seemed like a breakaway or a two on one a game even in the playoffs. Yes in 2000 and 2001 they began to be more defensive but he was traded. Anyhow if he had defense in front of him like Brodeur does nowadays or Roy did for the better part of his career he would get 15 shutouts a year.

And nobody will deny on the other hand that Roy did indeed win 10 overtime games but as far as I'm concerned he didn't even have to make a big save for at least 4 of them as they ended so fast.

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03-17-2005, 07:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Dominik Hasek's peak as a goaltender is similar as Wayne Gretzky's peak as a forward when he won nine of ten Hart Trophies and Bobby Orr's peak as a defenseman when he won eight straight Norris Trophies.

Patrick Roy clearly has had the greater career in terms of longevity, but he is Ray Bourque to Hasek's Bobby Orr. I therefore say that Dominik Hasek is the greatest ever NHL goaltender.
That's a good analogy (Orr/Bourque). I agree with it.

Hasek was superior to Roy in his prime. Hasek is the only goalie in the history of the NHL to win the Hart twice; Roy has 0. Hasek has more Vezina's (6-3) and a lead in all-star selections (6 first vs 4 first, 2 second). Hasek is one of only 2 goalies to ever win the Pearson trophy (and he did it twice); Roy has none.

Roy's biggest advantage are his 3 Conn Smythe's. They were well deserved, but I don't think that this outweighs Hasek's complete regular season dominance.

In "The Hockey Compendium" by Jeff Z Klein and Karl Eric Reif, Hasek is ranked the best regular season goalie in history, and Roy is a distant second (using a statistical formula, though it's quality/accuracy is quite debatable). They have Hasek ranked the 3rd best playoff goalie ever (this was prior to winning the Cup in Detroit); Roy is 8th.

Daryl Shilling did a study on save percentage adjusted for era. It shows that Hasek and Roy are virtually tied for first place all-time. http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_s...djustedsvp.htm

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03-17-2005, 11:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Puddy
Dominik Hasek's peak as a goaltender is similar as Wayne Gretzky's peak as a forward when he won nine of ten Hart Trophies and Bobby Orr's peak as a defenseman when he won eight straight Norris Trophies.

Patrick Roy clearly has had the greater career in terms of longevity, but he is Ray Bourque to Hasek's Bobby Orr. I therefore say that Dominik Hasek is the greatest ever NHL goaltender.
Ruah was better than Bourque relatively speaking (3 Conney Smythes). 2 cups won singlehandedly. Having watched 86; he was better than Hasek when it counted. But Hasek was dominating a game as much as a Lemieux and on a better team would have won 6-8 Cups.But whats ifs dont count.

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