Just by reading the first couple of lines I got the impression of what an ignorant, uninformed person you are. I'll answer later.
...and you must have started this thread to stir up something since it was already done before and you have a bias. I have mine. No need to go name calling when someone refutes your claims.
Well, it's clear you weren't watching playoff hockey that year. Ask Ottawa fans about their 6 goal series against Hasek.
The Sabres 3rd leading scorer that year was Michael Grosek. That says enough.
Yep, you're right...that says enough. Cujo stealing a series from the Avs back in the late 90's...that is enough, too, by your account. Cujo is now better than Roy. Minnesota's hot goalie tandem that beat my Avs...they're obviously better than Roy. They carried Minny on their shoulders through that series. Wow! I am going to have to be waiting for Fernie and Rolly to get enshrined before Patrick. Your argument is sooo convincing. Please provide more examples like this to prove your point because Roy never stole a series.
1-To say that Hasek would have won the Conn Smythe and more Cups if he had better players around him is stupid. A hot/outstanding goalie is the great playoff equalizer....is it not? By everyone's accounts here, Hasek should easily have won at least 5 Cups, right? I mean, Giggy is a stiff with big pads and almost won a Cup against a future record holder. Hasek was the vicitm of Brett Hull being in the crease....he didn't whiff, did he? Yep, Hasek is the better regular season goalie. Weeeeee. :lol Where do they inscribe the "Dom Hasek had better stats in the regular season than Patrick Roy" on The Cup? Oh yeah, they don't. The only time Hasek got a sniff of The Cup was when Dallas let up in the series and became complacent. Oh wait, he won a Cup with the RedWings...a team that was full of what everyone will call superstars just like the Avs (unless you are talking about Forsberg because he is just a diver, right)were for Roy's Cups with the Avalanche. Shoulda.....coulda.....didn't.
2-Hasek didn't carry those Buffalo teams on his back to a Cup.By all accounts....he should have. Win 10 OT's in a row? Please....Hasek would be out with an injury and throw a fit before it got to that point.
3-Hell, I'd take Eddie The Eagle and most certainly Brodeur before Hasek as far as playoffs are concerned. Detroit was as motivated to win The Cup for Hasek as the Avs were to win it for Bourque. Roy went to NJ and shut them down and came back home to win his final Cup. What'd Hasek have to do....manage to stay upright on his skates?
1- First off a great goalie is someone who plays great every single game not just in the playoffs. A great goalie is someone who leads the NHL in GAA and save percentage for 6 years. A great goalie is someone who wins the Hart trophy twice which no other goalie has done. Also a great goalie is someone who does all these things despite being on one of the worse teams in the league for the most part of his career. A great goalie is someone who virtually single handedly leads his team into the playoffs every year and to the finals. Cups do mather yes. But by your anology, I guess Henri Richard who won 11 cups was better then Gretzky. Or Ken Dryden who won 6 cups was better then Terry Sawchuk. You see, cups are a team award not an individual one. Also a great goalie doesnt normally allow 9 goals in 2 periods or really stink during the regular season.
2- Really shows the intelligence of a poster. Hasek would've been injured lol. Keep dreaming pal.
3- What about when Hasek and Roy ever faced each other in an important game. Hasek got 2 straight shouts while Roy let in 7 goals. What about the olympics in 98 when Roy was beaten twice in the shooutout while Hasek was never beaten? Or how Roy used to get swept in the playoffs. Has Hasek ever been swept? Um... NO!
One more thing about the Conn Smythe trophy. You see a conn smythe trophy means that you were the best player in the finals which is maximum 7 games, while a Hart trophy means that you were the best over a span of 60-70 games and the best player in the league period. Face it Roy was great... but Hasek was the greatest.
Yep, you're right...that says enough. Cujo stealing a series from the Avs back in the late 90's...that is enough, too, by your account. Cujo is now better than Roy. Minnesota's hot goalie tandem that beat my Avs...they're obviously better than Roy. They carried Minny on their shoulders through that series. Wow! I am going to have to be waiting for Fernie and Rolly to get enshrined before Patrick. Your argument is sooo convincing. Please provide more examples like this to prove your point because Roy never stole a series.
My post had nothing to do with Roy. Hasek lead teams that would have been top draft pick contenders without him deep into the playoffs. That was my point. Hasek led inferior teams to
gold medals. You claim that he "didn't carry those teams on his back" and that "he should have".
Hasek is the better goalie because he played at a level for a long time that Roy was incapable of reaching.
1- First off a great goalie is someone who plays great every single game not just in the playoffs. A great goalie is someone who leads the NHL in GAA and save percentage for 6 years. A great goalie is someone who wins the Hart trophy twice which no other goalie has done. Also a great goalie is someone who does all these things despite being on one of the worse teams in the league for the most part of his career. A great goalie is someone who virtually single handedly leads his team into the playoffs every year and to the finals. Cups do mather yes. But by your anology, I guess Henri Richard who won 11 cups was better then Gretzky. Or Ken Dryden who won 6 cups was better then Terry Sawchuk. You see, cups are a team award not an individual one. Also a great goalie doesnt normally allow 9 goals in 2 periods or really stink during the regular season.
---A great goalie is someone who has won the Conn Smythe 3 times and won 4 Cups. Yes, a goalie is more influential in the outcome of a series than a forward. Try comparing players of the same timeframe instead of a reach like Richard vs. Gretzky to have some semblance of credibility. That's like your avatar yapping about all of those Cups when there were how many teams in the league? Who had the better shooting percentage? I'm too lazy to look it up, but I'll bet that some players top Gretz in that category. Roy stunk in the regular season? Really? Your precious numbers don't show that.....
2- Really shows the intelligence of a poster. Hasek would've been injured lol. Keep dreaming pal.
---You're right, just like your posts show your intelligence.
3- What about when Hasek and Roy ever faced each other in an important game. Hasek got 2 straight shouts while Roy let in 7 goals. What about the olympics in 98 when Roy was beaten twice in the shooutout while Hasek was never beaten? Or how Roy used to get swept in the playoffs. Has Hasek ever been swept? Um... NO!
---There goes that magic puck again. Has Hasek been in the playoffs enough to be swept.....no. So, what you're saying is, Giggy is equal to Hasek because he carried them, in your words, virtually to the Cup. Well...almost. Where did Buffalo go during those playoffs? Ohhhhh, I guess Hasek couldn't cut the mustard could he? If he single handedly carried the Sabres to the playoffs and was truly the greatest, he should have had NO PROBLEM carrying them to a Cup since the regular season is the tough part.
One more thing about the Conn Smythe trophy. You see a conn smythe trophy means that you were the best player in the finals which is maximum 7 games, while a Hart trophy means that you were the best over a span of 60-70 games and the best player in the league period. Face it Roy was great... but Hasek was the greatest.
--....and either way, a Stanley Cup is EARNED, not voted....something that Hasek only did once and Roy did 4 times.
The Conn Smythe is received for a player who, as you put, carried their team. So, even if the indivdual awards are equal and the percentages are equal, where is Hasek's hardware? Where are Hasek's wins? Oh wait, those don't count.
Last edited by colosilverado: 03-22-2005 at 08:40 PM.
3- What about when Hasek and Roy ever faced each other in an important game. Hasek got 2 straight shouts while Roy let in 7 goals.
--really, Hasek got 2 shutouts in one important game? GD, he IS good. I don't think I've seen a goalie do THAT. You ARE right, that is something special. Patty chose to play tough against Brodeur when he wanted to win a Cup for Ray. Sorry, it can't happen all of the time. All great goalies get beat. It's called the law of averages.
Look, I'm not saying that Hasek isn't a great goalie and doesn't deserve some respect for we what he has done. I just don't agree that he is as good as a few other goalies. No need to call me names.
--....and either way, a Stanley Cup is EARNED, not voted....something that Hasek only did once and Roy did 4 times.
The Conn Smythe is received for a player who, as you put, carried their team. So, even if the indivdual awards are equal and the percentages are equal, where is Hasek's hardware? Where are Hasek's wins? Oh wait, those don't count.
I think that if there were 2 evenly matched teams playing, Haseks would win over Roys. even in the playoffs.
Is a Cup an individual endeavor...no.
Is a goalie's save percentage or goals agains an individual achievement? No.
Can you go through and break down which of the shots faced were quality scoring chances? How many of those goals against Patrick were odd man rushes where the Avs were caught up ice because they are more of a scoring team than a defensively disciplined team and were trying to score a pretty, highlight reel goal and it backfired? Same with Hasek?
There are still too many intangibles to be factored in and the numbers are too close for me to even buy the numbers part, let alone other criteria.
I think that if there were 2 evenly matched teams playing, Haseks would win over Roys. even in the playoffs.
...and I think that Roy's would. What's your point? Do we get to pick our guy from their best year or right now?
Detroit was the better team the year that Hasek was there and the difference wasn't only Hasek just like Dallas was better the times times they beat the Avs in the WCF. The Avs were a 2 line team against Detroit. They were last year.
People tend to talk up the Avs and dog their individual players in the same breath.
Would you say that Brodeur is better than Roy and would you pick Brodeur over Roy? Go look up and down the rosters of the Avs and Devils in 2001 and tell me how one team was better than the other, or had more depth or anything like that. Weren't the Avs down in that series, facing elimination and headed to NJ to watch the Devils hoist the Cup? Who saved the Avs bacon? Who won that head to head? With that being said, hell, if someone gave me a choice between Brodeur and Roy for a single series to determine it all....I would be hard pressed to pick and may surprise myself. Hasek has never done that...
Beating Roy head to head on an inferior Avs team is tough, I'll admit it. Roy did choke, there's no doubt. It wasn't for all of the marbles though. The pressure is ratcheted up with each level you advance to. I'm still more impressed with Roy beating the defending champs and doing it when facing elimination tougher than what Hasek did for his lone Cup. Ask alot of Avs fans and they'll tell you that playing as much hockey as they have and being as successful they have has made them somewhat lazy in their approach to playoff hockey...or not as driven as they should be.
...and I think that Roy's would. What's your point? Do we get to pick our guy from their best year or right now?
Detroit was the better team the year that Hasek was there and the difference wasn't only Hasek just like Dallas was better the times times they beat the Avs in the WCF. The Avs were a 2 line team against Detroit. They were last year.
People tend to talk up the Avs and dog their individual players in the same breath.
Would you say that Brodeur is better than Roy and would you pick Brodeur over Roy? Go look up and down the rosters of the Avs and Devils in 2001 and tell me how one team was better than the other, or had more depth or anything like that. Weren't the Avs down in that series, facing elimination and headed to NJ to watch the Devils hoist the Cup? Who saved the Avs bacon? Who won that head to head? With that being said, hell, if someone gave me a choice between Brodeur and Roy for a single series to determine it all....I would be hard pressed to pick and may surprise myself. Hasek has never done that...
Beating Roy head to head on an inferior Avs team is tough, I'll admit it. Roy did choke, there's no doubt. It wasn't for all of the marbles though. The pressure is ratcheted up with each level you advance to. I'm still more impressed with Roy beating the defending champs and doing it when facing elimination tougher than what Hasek did for his lone Cup. Ask alot of Avs fans and they'll tell you that playing as much hockey as they have and being as successful they have has made them somewhat lazy in their approach to playoff hockey...or not as driven as they should be.
What you fail to realise is that yes Roy played a major role in coming back from that 3/1 series deficit in 2001 but did you ever ask why they were down 3-1 in the first place? Hint: Patrick... Other Hint: Roy
What you fail to realise is that yes Roy played a major role in coming back from that 3/1 series deficit in 2001 but did you ever ask why they were down 3-1 in the first place? Hint: Patrick... Other Hint: Roy
I 've watched Ruah since he broke in and had a good seat for most of that time; he was good but not Dryden level much less Hasek.
What you fail to realise is that yes Roy played a major role in coming back from that 3/1 series deficit in 2001 but did you ever ask why they were down 3-1 in the first place? Hint: Patrick... Other Hint: Roy
Nope. Dream on pal.....
I just thought I'd try one of your comebacks on for size. How do you like it?
Ummm, I'm looking at your "Best Playoff" thread, Kovalev10. I'm not really seeing too many people supporting your side there either. On the other hand, I am seeing quite a bit of support for Patrick...even by you. What gives?
Ummm, I'm looking at your "Best Playoff" thread, Kovalev10. I'm not really seeing too many people supporting your side there either. On the other hand, I am seeing quite a bit of support for Patrick...even by you. What gives?
Yeah I gave credit to Roy and said its a tie between him and Hasek in the playoffs. But since Hasek was much better in the regular season, when you combine the two, Hasek wins.
What you fail to realise is that yes Roy played a major role in coming back from that 3/1 series deficit in 2001 but did you ever ask why they were down 3-1 in the first place? Hint: Patrick... Other Hint: Roy
Well in 2002, Hasek's only Cup run, they barely made it past the first round. He was awful, there were even Hasek jerseys thrown on the ice after game 2 when Detroit fell behind 0-2. He never came back to steal the series. If not for a fluke goal from centre ice and a guy named Yzerman, Hasek wouldn't have even taken a loaded Wings team past the first round.
Sure he was a great goalie on bad Buffalo teams, but look how he performed in Detroit when he didn't have to face a barrage of shots night in and night out. His save% took a dive to .907, and he was hardly the same player as he was in Buffalo. His unreal performances while with the Sabres depended on him HAVING to steal the games, when there was no pressure on him to win. He wasn't the same when he was expected to win. It's ridiculous to make claims like "put him on Roy's teams and he'd have all the Cups and Smythes too".
Well in 2002, Hasek's only Cup run, they barely made it past the first round. He was awful, there were even Hasek jerseys thrown on the ice after game 2 when Detroit fell behind 0-2. He never came back to steal the series. If not for a fluke goal from centre ice and a guy named Yzerman, Hasek wouldn't have even taken a loaded Wings team past the first round.
Sure he was a great goalie on bad Buffalo teams, but look how he performed in Detroit when he didn't have to face a barrage of shots night in and night out. His save% took a dive to .907, and he was hardly the same player as he was in Buffalo. His unreal performances while with the Sabres depended on him HAVING to steal the games, when there was no pressure on him to win. He wasn't the same when he was expected to win. It's ridiculous to make claims like "put him on Roy's teams and he'd have all the Cups and Smythes too".
I guess 6 shutouts and a goals against average of 1.85 not to mention 2 straight shutout against your beloved Roy's colorado avalanche was awful? Oh and his save percentage wasnt .907 it was .920.
I 've watched Ruah since he broke in and had a good seat for most of that time; he was good but not Dryden level much less Hasek.
Oh, oh, oh....I have another buddy who saw Roy play alot and he said that Roy is better than Hasek. Since your argument was supposed to hold so much weight, I was hoping that mine would, too. Does this put Patty on top now? By my count, I'm up 2-1 on you with the "somebody says that so and so is better because they saw them play" battle.
Yeah I gave credit to Roy and said its a tie between him and Hasek in the playoffs. But since Hasek was much better in the regular season, when you combine the two, Hasek wins.
Really, Hasek was much better in the regular season? Define much better....because your precious numbers don't show it. How many wins does Hasek have again?
I guess 6 shutouts and a goals against average of 1.85 not to mention 2 straight shutout against your beloved Roy's colorado avalanche was awful? Oh and his save percentage wasnt .907 it was .920.
Ummm, I didn't make the post you are referring to and I am pretty sure that he does not hold the Avs in the "beloved" part of his heart....LOL!
Oh, oh, oh....I have another buddy who saw Roy play alot and he said that Roy is better than Hasek. Since your argument was supposed to hold so much weight, I was hoping that mine would, too. Does this put Patty on top now? By my count, I'm up 2-1 on you with the "somebody says that so and so is better because they saw them play" battle.
How many Hart Trophies does Roy have again? 0 How about Hasek? 2!
What about GAA-S: Hasek owns Roy in that.
What about save percentage: Well, well, well Hasek owns Roy in that as well.
What about the number of Shutouts: Hasek has 63 in half as many games while Roy only has 65.
All Roy has is a little more wins because he was on powerhouse teams with Colorado who were always one of the best offensive players in the league and as a result they scored a lot more then the Sabres did and won the games, not Roy.
How many Hart Trophies does Roy have again? 0 How about Hasek? 2!
What about GAA-S: Hasek owns Roy in that.
What about save percentage: Well, well, well Hasek owns Roy in that as well.
What about the number of Shutouts: Hasek has 63 in half as many games while Roy only has 65.
All Roy has is a little more wins because he was on powerhouse teams with Colorado who were always one of the best offensive players in the league and as a result they scored a lot more then the Sabres did and won the games, not Roy.
So, you can't dig up anything more to substantiate your claim? Just rehash the same old stuff, huh? Hasek owns....that is comical. And Roy was on some not so great Habs teams...try again.
So, you can't dig up anything more to substantiate your claim? Just rehash the same old stuff, huh? Hasek owns....that is comical. And Roy was on some not so great Habs teams...try again.
Oh not to mention 6 Vezina trophies to Roy's 3. Yes not so great teams, but BETTER then anything Hasek had with the Sabres.
Really, Hasek was much better in the regular season? Define much better....because your precious numbers don't show it. How many wins does Hasek have again?
Hart Trophy: Hasek 2, Roy 0
Pearson Trophy: Hasek 2, Roy 0
Vezina Trophy: Hasek 6, Roy 3
All-star teams: Hasek 6 (6 first team, 0 second team), Roy 6 (4 first, 2 second)
Adjusted for era save percentage: Hasek 91.57%, Roy 91.56% (source: http://members.shaw.ca/hbtn/player_s...djustedsvp.htm)
Wins are a team stat. They shouldn't be used to evaluate individual performance.
Don't get me wrong, I'd love to have Roy on my team. And I have some data showing he was a superior playoff goalie (it's on my office computer, I will post it tomorrow). But I'd take Hasek in his prime, every time.
