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Do the Habs need a heavyweight enforcer?

View Poll Results: Should the Habs claim Matt Kassian on waivers from Minnesota?
Yes 86 74.78%
No 29 25.22%
Voters: 115. You may not vote on this poll

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Old
02-14-2013, 01:37 PM
  #451
HiggsBozon
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
How hard is it to comprehend that a guy like Rupp can play a regular shift, and Kassian cannot. However Rupp has declined lately, and personally I would prefer someone younger. If Rupp went on waivers, I would probably want the Habs to take a flyer on him. Pretty simple concept. He can play hockey and not be a giant liability on the ice, like Kassian.

Your ad hominem's are simply an extension of your lack of an argument, or else you would have addressed the many points brought forth. It's unfortunate that you can't stick to the topic and retort any of the arguments. Not surprising, but unfortunate.
You promote the acquisition of guys who can both fight AND play quality hockey, and you come up with a guy like Mike Rupp, whom the Rangers fans couldn't stand anymore, to prove a point? That's got to be the most ridiculous thing on this thread.

I'm playing the same arrogant game YOU started. How convenient is that? You tried to make a point and you brought a ridiculous, flawed argument in less than 5 lines. 'grats.

Funny for a guy who tells another one that he has no arguments, when you couldn't even come back and give me an explanation why most teams in the league still give a roster spot to guys like Orr, McLaren, MacDermid, Shelley, Peluso, Parros, Barch and others, despite the fact that, in your opinion, they're such a huge liability.

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02-14-2013, 01:39 PM
  #452
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
I totally said that. Yeah right. Good job putting words in my mouth.
get over yourself, never said you did.

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02-14-2013, 01:39 PM
  #453
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
You promote the acquisition of guys who can both fight AND play quality hockey, and you come up with a guy like Mike Rupp, whom the Rangers fans couldn't stand anymore, to prove a point? That's got to be the most ridiculous thing on this thread.

I'm playing the same arrogant game YOU started. How convenient is that? You tried to make a point and you brought a ridiculous, flawed point in less than 5 lines. 'grats.
Rangers have a guy like Boyle sitting in the pressbox. They have depth. Rupp isn't what he used to be, but he's in a different stratosphere than kassian.

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02-14-2013, 01:41 PM
  #454
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
You promote the acquisition of guys who can both fight AND play quality hockey, and you come up with a guy like Mike Rupp, whom the Rangers fans couldn't stand anymore, to prove a point? That's got to be the most ridiculous thing on this thread.

I'm playing the same arrogant game YOU started. How convenient is that? You tried to make a point and you brought a ridiculous, flawed point in less than 5 lines. 'grats.
Difference is Rupp was traded for, he has value, he can still play. Kassian, the guy you were advocating for, cleared waivers and obviously has no value in the NHL. Anyone can see that.

Have you watched both of them play? If you would have, you wouldn't have such a hard time understanding the comment.


Obviously Rupp is on the decline, but a younger player in his mould that can play with grit and not be a liability on the ice would be fantastic.
p.s. your argument once again was just another logical fallacy, this time it was :

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Answer me this, you've never watched Kassian play. Right? I mean, if you had, we wouldn't even be having this discussion. He is not an NHL caliber player. Rupp still is, despite being on the decline.

You saw the guys size, watched a few fights on hockeyfights.com and came to the conclusion that Montreal would benefit from picking him up. Right? All insults you've thrown at me aside, that's exactly what you did, right? Be honest.


Quote:
Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Rangers have a guy like Boyle sitting in the pressbox. They have depth. Rupp isn't what he used to be, but he's in a different stratosphere than kassian.
Agreed, and like I said if he was free, I would absolutely support taking a waiver on Rupp. But like you point out, there's a major difference between both players. In that Rupp holds value since he can play a regular shift, despite not being as good as he used to be, and Kassian cannot.

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02-14-2013, 01:42 PM
  #455
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Originally Posted by overlords View Post
Rangers have a guy like Boyle sitting in the pressbox. They have depth. Rupp isn't what he used to be, but he's in a different stratosphere than kassian.
He might historically be a better player, but bringing his name up to make a point about a player that knows how to fight and how to be efficient on the ice is ridiculous, especially considering what Rangers fans thought of him.

Plus, who would ask a guy like Kassian to play 10 minutes in a game?

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02-14-2013, 01:43 PM
  #456
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Originally Posted by Dr Gonzo View Post
Difference is Rupp was traded for, he has value, he can still play. Kassian, the guy you were advocating for, cleared waivers and obviously has no value in the NHL. Anyone can see that.

Have you watched both of them play? If you would have, you wouldn't have such a hard time understanding the comment.

Obviously Rupp is on the decline, but a younger player in his mould that can play with grit and not be a liability on the ice would be fantastic.
p.s. your argument once again was just another logical fallacy, this time it was :

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter

Answer me this, you've never watched Kassian play. Right? I mean, if you had, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.
I've watched enough of Minnesota play to know Kassian can play 5 minutes every 3 games for an NHL team lacking of a tough guy.

As for Rupp, he's not an effective guy who can play 12-13 minutes anymore. Not even close.

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02-14-2013, 01:47 PM
  #457
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
He might historically be a better player, but bringing his name up to make a point about a player that knows how to fight and how to be efficient on the ice is ridiculous, especially considering what Rangers fans thought of him.

He can still be more effective than Kassian. Much more. Saying otherwise is what's foolish. There is a reason Minny traded for him, and then got waived Kassian. Pretty obvious who they thought was more useful. One asset they paid for, the other they put on the market for free, and there was no takers.

Besides, Rupp wouldn't go on waivers since he still has some value, as is evidenced by the recent trade. Kassian doesn't hold value for any NHL team, that's why he isn't in the NHL.

And you are just cherry picking since you have no logical argument to support wasting a roster spot on Kassian. You literally ignored all the other arguments, and if we are being honest I said a guy like Rupp. Meaning a guy that can play a regular shift and not be a liability. Not necessarily Rupp at this point, since he is a little too old to fit our team, but a guy like him would be fine. Not a scrubbo that can hardly play like Kassian.


Last edited by Dr Gonzo: 02-14-2013 at 01:53 PM.
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Old
02-14-2013, 04:33 PM
  #458
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Originally Posted by DAChampion View Post
Is anybody arguing for a 4th line with 3 goons?

DA.

There is a lot of projection from the anti-fighting crowd.

They project that we think having tougher players will prevent injuries.

They also project that we want a 4th line full of goons.

It is absurd.

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02-14-2013, 04:39 PM
  #459
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Originally Posted by disturbedraven View Post
No one is saying Armstrong is the answer, but you can't seriously believe that Kassian is more useful than Armstrong? Remember, Armstrong is a 1 year reclamation project, no significance if he doesn't work out.
Needs of the team.

Armstrong does not fill a need of this team. Just like Weber does not fill a need of this team. Ditto for Kaberle.

The only significance of Armstrong being on the team for one year is a lost opportunity to IMPROVE this team.

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02-14-2013, 04:41 PM
  #460
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
DA.

There is a lot of projection from the anti-fighting crowd.

They project that we think having tougher players will prevent injuries.

They also project that we want a 4th line full of goons.

It is absurd.
Don't even bother. It's useless. I wasted way too much time trying to argue with that "crowd" today. They just don't live in the same world as we do. For them, what happened last Saturday is acceptable, and it's normal to see a guy like Gallagher who has to fight, because, you know, he took the other guy's helmet off.

And for the sole reason a guy might not be the best player out there, you know, our pro roster is too rich to have a guy like this as the 13rd or 14th forward. Because, you know, we have such high standards for our players, and we can't live without the great contributions of guys like Armstrong or Weber.

And of course, the time of pure enforcers in this league is coming to an end, because, you know, there are no such things as guys like MacDermid, Orr, McLaren, Shelley, Barch, Bollig or Bissonette in this league nowadays.

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02-14-2013, 04:45 PM
  #461
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
At this point I hope Montreal acquires a big goon they can get lit up on from the six minutes of hockey he plays a game just so they can proclaim his powerful intimidation after wrestling other heavyweights to the ground.

Or even better, we get back Ryan O'Byrne for peanuts, O'Byrne plays horrible positioning every game and gets us on the PK for a whole period anytime someone takes a run at a Canadiens player. And then people can act like nobody is taking a run at a Habs player again because O'Byrne might jump them. Live in their pretty little bubble.
For all of your sarcasm, reality states that we have been the softest team in the NHL for the last decade.

How many Cups in that time frame?

Your version of what the bubble should be like has been proven ineffective. When the Habs were winning Cups, they were a team to be feared, both with speed and with fighting.

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02-14-2013, 04:53 PM
  #462
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Originally Posted by GFORCE View Post
Don't even bother. It's useless. I wasted way too much time trying to argue with that "crowd" today. They just don't live in the same world as we do. For them, what happened last Saturday is acceptable, and it's normal to see a guy like Gallagher who has to fight, because, you know, he took the other guy's helmet off.

And for the sole reason a guy might not be the best player out there, you know, our pro roster is too rich to have a guy like this as the 13rd or 14th forward. Because, you know, we have such high standards for our players, and we can't live without the great contributions of guys like Armstrong or Weber.

And of course, the time of pure enforcers in this league is coming to an end, because, you know, there are no such things as guys like MacDermid, Orr, McLaren, Shelley, Barch, Bollig or Bissonette in this league nowadays.
Too many younger fans who have only seen video clips of the great Habs teams that won Cups.

Too many younger fans who grew up watching the passive Habs teams take a licking and then take another.

But hey, who would be your special Valentine Canadiens player?

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02-14-2013, 04:53 PM
  #463
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
For all of your sarcasm, reality states that we have been the softest team in the NHL for the last decade.

How many Cups in that time frame?

Your version of what the bubble should be like has been proven ineffective. When the Habs were winning Cups, they were a team to be feared, both with speed and with fighting.
and yet, the ones in favor of gooning it up salivate at the idea that we may claim a guy nobody wants for the simple fact he can fight a little.

in the 70's, guys like Moen would have to fight a little, same for Armstrong, and it wouldnt be accepted by teammates for Patches to cry at the ref for a byte... (ever saw guys like Lambert, Tremblay and co whine about stuff like this ? dont think so)

yet, all of those who wants the team to be tougher disregard that...

bring the magical goon who will fix everything, right ?

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02-14-2013, 05:02 PM
  #464
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Originally Posted by ECWHSWI View Post
and yet, the ones in favor of gooning it up salivate at the idea that we may claim a guy nobody wants for the simple fact he can fight a little.

in the 70's, guys like Moen would have to fight a little, same for Armstrong, and it wouldnt be accepted by teammates for Patches to cry at the ref for a byte... (ever saw guys like Lambert, Tremblay and co whine about stuff like this ? dont think so)

yet, all of those who wants the team to be tougher disregard that...

bring the magical goon who will fix everything, right ?
Trust me ECWHSWI.

There are a lot of players on this team who need to be replaced.

Not the right thread.

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02-14-2013, 05:12 PM
  #465
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Too many younger fans who have only seen video clips of the great Habs teams that won Cups.

Too many younger fans who grew up watching the passive Habs teams take a licking and then take another.

But hey, who would be your special Valentine Canadiens player?
I remember when the Canadiens were winning Cups in the 70s. I was an Islanders fan.

Your perception of the Canadiens is laughable. Nobody feared Mario Tremblay.

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02-14-2013, 05:24 PM
  #466
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Originally Posted by No Team Needed View Post
I remember when the Canadiens were winning Cups in the 70s. I was an Islanders fan.

Your perception of the Canadiens is laughable. Nobody feared Mario Tremblay.
The Islanders miss you.

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02-14-2013, 05:26 PM
  #467
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Originally Posted by SouthernHab View Post
Trust me ECWHSWI.

There are a lot of players on this team who need to be replaced.

Not the right thread.
So, we just pretend all is good and ask for a goon ? too easy.

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02-14-2013, 05:28 PM
  #468
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The Islanders miss you.
The Canadiens will never miss you.

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02-14-2013, 09:07 PM
  #469
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If you cant bring a physical game to the 4th line, you dont belong on it.

If you cannot bring energy whilst playing on the 4th line, you dont belong on it.

Also, 2/3rds of a 4th line should be able to drop the gloves at a moments notice and be able to handle all that is required of them, and one of them needs to be a legit HW.

The Habs have a history of winning when players of that calibre have been on their teams. When they aren't, they have mainly succumbed to poor seasons and many a beatdown. Not good for team morale.

Kassian should have been claimed today. Sad day.

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02-14-2013, 10:53 PM
  #470
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There's a huge misconception on this forum, especially from those who have never played the game and who chose to ignore the players' comments when it comes to enforcers. They seem to think that enforcers prevent hockey from happening. The best example is that comment from whoever saying the Chris Neil didn't prevent Karlsson's injury.

Enforcers are deterrents to cheap-shot artists. Deterrents doesn't mean "prevent all things from happening". Rather, they make those people accountable as they know that if they act stupid, it's at their own risk. I only wish the league got rid of the instigator rule, the worst rule in hockey. You'd have even more accountability!

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02-14-2013, 11:02 PM
  #471
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
There's a huge misconception on this forum, especially from those who have never played the game and who chose to ignore the players' comments when it comes to enforcers. They seem to think that enforcers prevent hockey from happening. The best example is that comment from whoever saying the Chris Neil didn't prevent Karlsson's injury.

Enforcers are deterrents to cheap-shot artists. Deterrents doesn't mean "prevent all things from happening". Rather, they make those people accountable as they know that if they act stupid, it's at their own risk. I only wish the league got rid of the instigator rule, the worst rule in hockey. You'd have even more accountability!
Yes, because accountability has existed forever in the history of hockey.

Do you remember the 80s? I do. At least the times not spent at New Order concerts. There was very little accountability. Teams would clear benches for brawls. Wendel Clark would MOUNT a guy and then pound him. Luke Richardson was still cheapshotted to a much weaker career. Montreal, Philly and Quebec beat the hell out of each other and the only time anyone won anything was when the gloves stayed on.

Do you remember the goons and enforcers on the Mighty Ducks? I do. And they did nothing of consequence to retaliate for Gary Suter's hit on Paul Kariya, a hit that took him from the top five best in the league to just a very good hockey player.

Or how about Ulf Samuelsson shortening Cam Neely's career? Or Tie Domi knocking Ulf Samuelsson out for calling him a dummy? Nothing.

Hockey is a violent, physical sport. Nobody is stopping anyone from doing anything other than a loss of pay from the NHL. Yes, intimidation is powerful. Yes, a fight can change the emotional balance of a game. Yes, having a few tough guys on the bottom lines can strike fear in your opponent from attempting to do the same. But it can only go so far, and never farther than skill.

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02-15-2013, 03:10 AM
  #472
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Give me a fourth line with three Shawn Thornton-types, who can crash and bang and play hockey and put the fear into the opposition. I'll take that over Moyen and Armweak.

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02-15-2013, 05:02 AM
  #473
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
There's a huge misconception on this forum, especially from those who have never played the game and who chose to ignore the players' comments when it comes to enforcers. They seem to think that enforcers prevent hockey from happening. The best example is that comment from whoever saying the Chris Neil didn't prevent Karlsson's injury.

Enforcers are deterrents to cheap-shot artists. Deterrents doesn't mean "prevent all things from happening". Rather, they make those people accountable as they know that if they act stupid, it's at their own risk. I only wish the league got rid of the instigator rule, the worst rule in hockey. You'd have even more accountability!
It's pretty frightening to read tbh. Teammates recognize their importance and they are often the most respected and most appreciated players in the room. Wayne Gretzky was offered to take one guy with him of his choosing to the LA Kings when he was traded. Who'd he take?

Who was Stevie Y's favorite teammate? Enforcers aren't there to prevent injuries or to stop the game from happening, it is what is. They still can play a valuable, but limited role and every team should have one imo.

History has shown that they are not in any way, shape or form detrimental to a hockey teams success, teams that win the cup often have a guy or two, the difference between a 4th liner and an enforcer in terms of skill is almost non existent.

It won't hurt or cost the habs season, but could provide a benefit or create a tighter knit group who go to war for one another. Seeing them do their thing inspires a sense of camaraderie. Those is the room understand and appreciate their contributions immensely. That has got to be worth something.

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02-15-2013, 06:14 AM
  #474
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Originally Posted by Habsterix View Post
There's a huge misconception on this forum, especially from those who have never played the game and who chose to ignore the players' comments when it comes to enforcers. They seem to think that enforcers prevent hockey from happening. The best example is that comment from whoever saying the Chris Neil didn't prevent Karlsson's injury.

Enforcers are deterrents to cheap-shot artists. Deterrents doesn't mean "prevent all things from happening". Rather, they make those people accountable as they know that if they act stupid, it's at their own risk. I only wish the league got rid of the instigator rule, the worst rule in hockey. You'd have even more accountability!
No they aren't. NHL'ers will do what got them into the NHL, regardless of a Matt Kassian playing 3 minutes on the other team.

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02-15-2013, 06:18 AM
  #475
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It's pretty frightening to read tbh. Teammates recognize their importance and they are often the most respected and most appreciated players in the room. Wayne Gretzky was offered to take one guy with him of his choosing to the LA Kings when he was traded. Who'd he take?

Who was Stevie Y's favorite teammate? Enforcers aren't there to prevent injuries or to stop the game from happening, it is what is. They still can play a valuable, but limited role and every team should have one imo.

History has shown that they are not in any way, shape or form detrimental to a hockey teams success, teams that win the cup often have a guy or two, the difference between a 4th liner and an enforcer in terms of skill is almost non existent.

It won't hurt or cost the habs season, but could provide a benefit or create a tighter knit group who go to war for one another. Seeing them do their thing inspires a sense of camaraderie. Those is the room understand and appreciate their contributions immensely. That has got to be worth something.
The skill difference between Eller and Konopka, or between Moen and Kassian, is enormous.

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